MovieChat Forums > The Stunt Man (1980) Discussion > Can anyone explain this movie?

Can anyone explain this movie?


I want to like this film but it seems to have a whole lotta logical lapses. It's good when a movie has too much on its mind rather than too little, but a number of things don't make sense. (Spoiler warning: don't read this unless you've seen the movie.)
1) In the beginning Cameron wanders onto the set. There are no cameras visible, no one yells cut, Burt doesn't tell him what's going on and then nearly runs him over, though supposedly not on purpose. All that stretches plausibility a bit much.
2) Burt's body is never found, leading you to think that he might still be alive, but nothing comes of it. Was there a plot twist that ended up on the cutting room floor?
3) Cameron drags Nina up to the high balconey over her protests and tries to get her to jump. What does she see in this psycho?
4) Nina is humiliated that her parents see a clip of her in a nude scene. They would have seen the whole movie anyway eventually, so what'd she expect?
5) Nina's character in the WWI movie is a young woman. By the time of Nazi Germany she's an old lady. That's more or less a 20-year span, so she would have just been middle-aged.
6) Why do they need to film the car going off the bridge again when they already have perfectly good footage in the clips they show to the cops?
7) When Cameron is in the sinking car he grabs the air hose under the seat and finds it disconnected, which suggests Eli really is out to kill him. But at the very end we're supposed to believe that all of Cameron's fears about Eli were wrong.
8) Actors playing German soldiers corner Cameron on the river shore, so apparently they changed the ending in which the hero drowns. Yet their decision to change it is never discussed. If the hero lives that would seem to negate the scenes of Nina's character as a heartbroken old lady.
9) Why does the hero in a WWI movie have a bad 1970's haircut?

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[deleted]

I have the same problem with this movie. I really don't understand the point it is trying to make either. Maybe its just us or the director did a bad job.

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The director did a beautiful job. The film's topic is the relationship between perception and reality. There are times when they differ and times when they don't, and times when perception is reality. It also deals with the limitations of language, how it limits what we can percieve by limiting what we can concieve, and how that creates our experience of reality.

It comes at you with layer after layer after layer of information. It's one of the most fascinating films I've ever seen.

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Yeah, and also: the way experience is always pulling the rug out from under us. Our expectations being quite different from what actually happens. Eli says somewhere in the movie that its all about illusion (meaning the movies). That is the key to the whole thing. Because life is also an illusion, or an infinite series of layers of illusion.

And nobody could have played Eli with the gaiety and panache of O'Toole.

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It's been ages since I saw this film, but I remember being fascinated by it and would love to see it again soon.

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lmao what a complete load of *beep* Remember it's puff puff PASS not puff puff puff puff puff

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Let me postulate that this is supposed to be a bad movie (I mean the film-within-a-film) so any gaffes regarding that were probably deliberate.

"Great, but why do they always use so much blood? Ruins the realism, don't you think?"

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1)..umm..all that was explained (by chuck) later when they are viewing the footage of Burt's last scene. Burt was all wound up, Cameron surprised him as cameras were rolling. try viewing again.
2) no, and it is not unrealistic, there are many car accidents in rivers where the bodies are never found.
3)I suspect it's all a bit of fun. The 70s were a different time; women didn't treat men like stalkers until they proved otherwise, and thus there was a lot more sex without the need of sex workers.
4)Again, this was made in the 70s where the 50s vs. 60s views about sex taboos (and lack thereof) was still sort of a "social issue". Also many sex scenes are shot and end up on the cutting room floor. The point was Eli got real shame from her in that scene because she was really ashamed. I'm surprised you didn't get that.
5)The plot of the movie that was being shot was never detailed, no one knows when the younger scenes take place and could have happened quite awhile before WWI.
6)again, made crystal clear by the script: Eli didn't like what they got, Cameron may have spoiled the scene when he showed up.
7)it sort of looked like Cameron himself accidentally unhooked the hose, in any case accidents happen and the car seemed to be set up at the last minute (of which I didn't believe, actually).
8)Again, the plot of the movie they were shooting was never detailed and much of it was being rewritten as the shooting continues (which happens with more experienced crews, i.e. Woody Allen shoots...etc.).
9)The movie was shot in the 70s, but that haircut didn't look like anything special. It looked like a rebellious longish straight-haired unkempt blonde of any era.

I guess there are just too many horrible scripts made these days that actually get made that makes people born past 1990 to judge older, great scripts so horribly. But actually your post reads like a "reality TV" script which is the blight of all visual art. Congratulations. (I won't even start on what has happened to attention spans over the years). Those of us born well before the 90s apologize for making a film where the plot couldn't be guessed within the first few scenes and thus doesn't conform to the current formulaic crud that is little more than marketing cliches.

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No need to get nasty, I don't dislike the film, but it seems you're offended that I dare question it. (Yeah, I got that Eli was getting real shame from her for the scene, but I ask again, what'd she expect? What'd she tell her parents, it was a family film?)
Despite your odd assumptions (your last paragraph makes zero sense) I was born in the 60's. I first saw this movie in the 80's and recently watched it again on DVD. I might have missed some of the explanations, as it does get rather talky and dull in between the action sequences. But the explanations I did catch weren't plausible, as if the filmmakers first came up with cool scenes and tried to rationalize them afterwards. You're making lame excuses for bad writing and continuity lapses. You can poke holes in any movie plot, but they really pile up in this one. The movie itself seems to suffer from short attention span and an inability to bring together its many threads, which is why the studio kept it on the shelf for years. But I give it credit, it was trying to juggle too many things and ended dropping some, and that's better than trying too little.

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...I said I want to like the film, but it seems you're offended that I dare question it.... But mostly you're making lame excuses for bad writing and continuity lapses...
That's just it, you didn't question anything really, mostly it was just lapses in your own comprehension of which you arrogantly blamed the movie; which did little more than prove your own ignorance. I wasn't offended; I actually find it quite laughable. Apparently because *you* didn't see the common archetypes used and the clever misdirection devices, *we* are supposed to think it was bad writing. Well, that and a buck will get you on the bus, good luck with that.



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And good luck getting along in real life with that kind of 'tude. The TV set must be your only friend.

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here is a dime... I want you to call your mother... Tell her there is serious doubt about your movie career...

Bonus points if you can tell me what movie I stole this quote from. If you were *really* born in '61, this shouldn't be much of a problem.

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Well a very similar line was in The Paper Chase.

" Here's a dime, take it, call your mother, and tell her there is serious doubt about you ever becoming a lawyer!"

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Exactly Right! loved that line. I think Houseman got an academy award for that character. Yet another Film that was a picture perfect view of the 70s.

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Are you Richard Rush?

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I'm not in the argument, but it's The Paper Chase.

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what a loser you are. probably in an asylum by now.

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[deleted]

[deleted]

[deleted]


Thank you. That was exactly my thought when reading the initial reply. A story's nuances should not need be spoon-fed to the viewer. And not to say that the movie was 'deep' but it does require some level of attention to know what is happening.


Who invited E.T. -?

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Your mean, arrogant attitude just weakens the effectiveness of your argument.
Perhaps, but I found shaggy's initial post to be arrogant, contrived, pretentious, and (last but certainly not least) ignorant. Hence my reaction (call it a personality flaw, but arrogant ignorance pisses me off). His/her retorts were rather weak and amounted to: "why are you being such an as$h0le to ME?!?!?" So, be that as it may, what are you? her boyfriend or something? Or are you some kind of superhero coming to the aid of the weak, arrogant, and ignorant? If shaggy doesn't like replies in a similar tone than how s/he writes, s/he should pick a different tone initially. Your posts here, on the other hand are equally laughable as you obviously are trying to reinforce his/her assertion of my as$holishness. Hahahah, some people's kids.....

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[deleted]

One problem with modern commercial art is the "Reality TV", MTV, low standards of the masses, etc, that raj3636 rails against. The other problem, is with raj3636 himself, and his ilk: snobbery amung self-annointed culture-guardians, looking down upon anyone who disagrees with the accepted "truths" of criticism, fueled by artistic conservatism and hatred of youth. Both problems plague the IMDb message boards, which is, as the AV Club puts it, "where film criticism goes to die".

www.theatrox.com

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These lines look suspiciously similar to a scene in "High Fidelity", and you sound like an unoriginal fence-riding blogger who prolifically never makes a stand on anything. Oh look, there's a link to your blog!

I laugh at and rage against arrogant ignorance, and will continue to do so, thank you very much. Ad hominem is the only tool of a weak mind, congratulations.


...Guess What S1mone! We have now entered an age where we can manufacture fraud faster than our ability to detect it

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"Ad hominem is the only tool of a weak mind, congratulations."

You are correct.

"Hahahah, some people's kids....."

"Those of us born well before the 90s..."

I suppose congratulations are in order for the above age-based ad hominem tactics wielded above. Congratulations are *certainly* in order for sarcastically using the word "congratulations" so often it has been rendered meaningless.

I am not arguing that you are WRONG because you are a snob. I am arguing that you are A JERK because you are a snob. That's not an ad hominem fallacy. You being a snob has direct relevance to you being a jerk.

Ad hominem is NOT the only tool of a weak mind. Your use of the false dilemma proves that. The question of who is right, Shaggy or you, is not necessarily an either-or situation. You can both be wrong or right to varying degrees. Me pointing out problems with either side, does not render my perspective worthless. I have taken a stand, and it is this: you may be right, but you are definitely an a**hole.

PS: I don't have a blog.

www.theatrox.com

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I have taken a stand, and it is this: you may be right, but you are definitely an a**hole.
Of course this *stand* addresses none of the content of this thread (in fact you've said nothing about the content, other than *maybe* someone is right or wrong...hahah, then accuse me of false dilemma) and is yet another ad hominem attack. But rest assured that the OP really appreciates your support of his/her arrogant ignorance. Well done. Did you get a phone number? At least you got another link to you Blog out there, I suppose.



...Guess What S1m0ne! We have now entered an age where we can manufacture fraud faster than our ability to detect it

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Nothing in your post makes sense.

www.theatrox.com

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Oh it isn't much really. I simply stated that the title of the thread is not "can anyone explain why raj3636 is an a$$hole."

Have a great Winter Solstice Holiday.



...Guess What S1m0ne! We have now entered an age where we can manufacture fraud faster than our ability to detect it

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Thank god, someone to talk to on this thread who doesn't write like they forgot to take their meds. For the record I have no idea who enicholson is, but he or she seems to be reasonably sane.

Some clarification:

2) This isn't a criticism so much as a question. I never said it was unrealistic that Burt's body is never found, but the fact that the screenwriter(s) chose to do it that way hinted, to me anyway, that he would show up again. So I wonder if at some point in the script he was supposed to, but that was eventually cut. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable of the making of this film can answer that. In any case his death is a gaping plot hole. It can't be kept secret forever and then there's going to be a lot of explaining to do, if not charges filed.

3) I doubt that women in any era found it "fun" to have their lives threatened. Which gets back to my comment about the meds.

4) It was a beautifully staged moment with how the scenery moved into place behind her as she broke into tears. Just the rationale behind it didn't work for me. By itself it's not a big problem, just one of many that add up.

8) The ending is indeed the movie's biggest flaw. Gets back to #2, was it rewritten?

Still I agree it's a pretty good movie, worthy alone for O'Toole's and Hershey's performances, the snappy dialog, and some great action sequences.

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[deleted]

Just to jump in here super late:

1) In the beginning Cameron wanders onto the set. There are no cameras visible, no one yells cut, Burt doesn't tell him what's going on and then nearly runs him over, though supposedly not on purpose. All that stretches plausibility a bit much.

True, however we are seeing this from Cameron's point of view. He has no idea what's going on, therefore we're not sure what's going on.


2) Burt's body is never found, leading you to think that he might still be alive, but nothing comes of it. Was there a plot twist that ended up on the cutting room floor?

Could be another perspective thing here as well. It's mentioned that the divers never found the body by Eli who could have been lying, Cameron could have misunderstood.

3) Cameron drags Nina up to the high balconey over her protests and tries to get her to jump. What does she see in this psycho?


She loves the bad guy and the danger. That's the whole point of her getting off when he does the airplane stunt.

4) Nina is humiliated that her parents see a clip of her in a nude scene. They would have seen the whole movie anyway eventually, so what'd she [quexpect?


It wasn't the scene that her parents saw it was the footage that wasn't going to be in the scene. It was all the wetting down and stuff and people acting generally awful that she felt shame about.

5) Nina's character in the WWI movie is a young woman. By the time of Nazi Germany she's an old lady. That's more or less a 20-year span, so she would have just been middle-aged.

Again we're never really told what the movie is and when anything takes place as it all happens from Cameron's perspective.


6) Why do they need to film the car going off the bridge again when they already have perfectly good footage in the clips they show to the cops?


For one reason or another Eli wasn't happy with the shot. Again adding to Cameron's belief that Eli was trying to kill him. Sense Eli was clearly a megalomaniac and gets what he wants.

7) When Cameron is in the sinking car he grabs the air hose under the seat and finds it disconnected, which suggests Eli really is out to kill him. But at the very end we're supposed to believe that all of Cameron's fears about Eli were wrong.


Cameron went to early. They were all trying to tell him what was going on but he went before anyone was ready.

8) Actors playing German soldiers corner Cameron on the river shore, so apparently they changed the ending in which the hero drowns. Yet their decision to change it is never discussed. If the hero lives that would seem to negate the scenes of Nina's character as a heartbroken old lady.


This was completely intentional. As the audience NEVER knows what was going on in the film within the film. They could have re-written the ending and then Eli changes his mind as the credits are rolling "Kill the bastard in the first act". Also all the soldiers of course came over to help him, but Cameron is so paranoid his mind nearly snaps and reality and truth blur.



9) Why does the hero in a WWI movie have a bad 1970's haircut?


Cameron isn't the hero of the movie he's a stunt man. The actor playing the hero has a well quafed haircut.


Oh and to the poster who mentioned that the buildings all scream southern California. Well they do in the action sequences we see. But when they actually watch the dailies it looks nothing like Southern California, as everything is back lit.

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[deleted]


The questions you raise are actually part of the point of the film.

This film is a lot like a Penn and Teller act. They make you think that they're showing you how the trick is done. Then they do it, and of course, completely hoodwink you again.

The big action scenes are a great example. Action scenes aren't shot that way, as big set pieces that play like live theatre from beginning to end. They're shot in tiny little pieces, over several days. Just like the rest of the film. But the film glides right past that-very intentionally. They only pretend to show you how it happens. Cameron wouldn't have seen a big battle on the beach, at least not filmed that way, with all those great closeups of special makeup effects and explosions happening simultaneously.

And So on.
Steven Bradford
Seattle WA
http://www.seanet.com/~bradford/

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You make some good points, Shaggy, and I say that while still listing this as one of my all-time favorite movies. But you're right - there are holes in this narrative wide enough for the proverbial truck to drive through. But still. This is one of the best O'Toole roles ever. He's better than the material. But the material has ambitions higher than a lot of movie scripts aim for.

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I remember seeing the movie when it came out. At the time, it was brilliant. It has not aged particularly well. Not badly, but it does not have the luster it did at the time. I think O'Toole is spectacular (I find this and My Favorite Year two of his best works).

> I think THE STUNT MAN is a really good movie, but it does have its flaws. Many others have pointed them out ever since the film came out. No reason to be a dck to shaggy61 because of them.

I think this has been blown way out of proportion by all parties and should be dropped.

> 1) I don't think that's a satisfactory explanation. It doesn't give a reason why Burt stopped, let Cameron open the door to the car, and then kicked him out of the car without giving him an explanation that a film shoot was in progress. Then Burt Drives back and nearly runs Cameron over? I think the director directed it that way to artificially create suspense in the audience for awhile. It's OK if it's not 100% realistic, but it's too contrived. The way it is shot just creates confusion.

It creates confusion because you don't know then what you learn later. It's not a completely linear story. Here's one clue as to why Burt did what he did: He's a jackass. Imagine that. Someone comes along, hops in his car, and distracts him at a key moment. He responds angrily, and fails to explain the anger to someone who has made an innocent mistake.

Why does this need detailing? Sure, it's not clear why it happened at the time in the movie, but it's mostly explained later on.

> 3) I agree with you here too. Though the scene doesn't work for me that well either because I think Railsback is somewhat miscast. He comes off as too strange and creepy.

I think that's the point. He needs a bit more vulnerability (which would explain everyone's acceptance of him), but it's hard to see it that way. The point is that he's damaged goods. Not a creep, but someone who probably was ok at one time and isn't right now. And yeah, once feminism took care of most of the repression of the female, they decided that women needed to see themselves as constant victims or Feminism would lose its hook. As a result, they've been hyping women-as-male-victims ever since, and both sexes have suffered. Where would women all be without Oxygen and Lifetime? Probably a lot less senselessly paranoid. When Lifetime put out a movie in which the female did something which, had a male done, the male would be in jail (but the female was lauded for), I knew Feminism had jumped the shark.

> 4) Agreed.
Ditto. Sorry, the original complaint shows a measure of cluelessness on the part of the complainant. And I don't mean that insultingly, but as a straight-up observation of relevance to the whole complaint.


> 6) I understand your explanation, but it's still not satisfactory. Eli's reason for wanting a re-shoot seems more like an excuse by the producers of THE STUNT MAN to use the same footage over again instead of having to spend more money shoot a different stunt. All of Eli's talk about only getting one chance to get the shot made me think they were going to shoot a somewhat different stunt -- not the exact same one -- for which they clearly already had usable footage.

You're assuming that angles he deemed critical were not messed up or otherwise interfered with by surrounding events. Adequate to fool the cops, but not sufficient for the cuts Eli wanted, given that he was rather meticulous and demanding.

7) That all sounds rather contrived...

Look the whole point is about the fact that Cameron is DAMAGED. The Vietnam War and the screwups and absurdities which have happened to him afterwards have left him absurdly paranoid and distrustful of everyone around him. The point is that he needed very much to learn to trust people again. By putting him in a situation where he was, in fact, dead without the good will of outsiders, his mind would (hopefully) reset itself. It would not matter if the airhose were cut, since the plan was to save his butt anyhow.

> 8) Most everything about the ending of this film is unsatisfactory. I was completely surprised the film had a "happy" ending and that Eli and Cameron had an "aw shucks, no hard feelings" conversation to end the film. All the flaws in this film could be almost completely forgiven if the film had a tragic or a more confrontational ending. Or a more comic ending. Or any kind of ending with balls. The film's ending has no balls. I figured tragedy and confrontation is what the film was building toward with all the elements of Cameron being a Vietnam vet, being purued by the police, falling in love with a vain actress, and working under a crazy man like Eli.

See above. This was 1980. The Vietnam War was past. A part of this film was the notion that we needed to move on, to stop blaming Vietnam Vets, and to help repair the damage done to them. War has its victims. There's no need to continue the victimization process to add more pain to it. It was time to stop beating ourselves over the head about it.

Like "The Boys In Company C", the movie is a part of acknowledging, in a less heavy-handed way than The Deer Hunter or Apocalypse Now, the problem and promoting a solution: It's over. Let's all move on with life.

> 9) The hair was kind of goofy, but so was the film. Didn't bother me.
Uh, yah. Typical 70s hair styles. Go look at people's prom photos from the time, and tell me it was atypical.

> Another flaw for me in the film is -- how could anyone believe a WWI movie could be set at a place like the Coronado Hotel in San Diego? That place and stretch of beach screams Southern California -- from SOME LIKE IT HOT to BAYWATCH.

Uh, "Baywatch" did not exist at the time, even as a concept in the minds of its creators. Nor did a lot of other usages of the Coronado. As a matter of fact, SLIH is the only one I can think of that predated The Stunt Man.

> Cameron and Eli in prison together also could have made a better and more amusing ending.

And again, though you might see it by now -- totally out of the character and intent of this movie, which was about self-forgiveness for mistakees and embracing and healing the Vietnam Vets. It did not "wimp out" -- it did exactly what its goal was. You just never looked for that to be the goal.

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I'm glad you brought these things up, because most of the movie doesn't make much sense. Also, it seems like the lead actor, Cameron was horribly miscast. He was so annoying and totally not right for the part. I would have liked a sex scene or two with barbara hershey, she was just so hot back in the day, why not exploit that, but in a good way? ya know, not cheap random sex, but, i dont know, something tasteful? peter o'toole obviously ruled the movie. he towered over the story and characters and plot(if there was one), i wonder how much of david lean is in eli cross.

The thing that confused me the most, is that this movie wasn't really a part of any genre. It wasn't a comedy, wasnt a drama, wasnt romance, yet it had strange elements of each in random scenes. It was so bizarre, like suddenly character would start laughing like in an old vaudeville comedy. Or there would some melodramtic romance scene, someone would start crying, then 10 seconds later they're laughing and making up so unrealistically.

Odd, odd movie.

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