MovieChat Forums > Ordinary People (1980) Discussion > so,it was all beth's fault,huh?

so,it was all beth's fault,huh?


I liked the movie very much but I HATED the ending.The divorce happened very strangely.My mother and father fought often ,but they never even thought of getting divorced.Here,the father tells to Beth she never loved anybody and with no comment whatsoever she goes to pack her things.With the movie being quite realistic it just broke it up.Then,Conrad and Calvin reconcile,as if all what happened was Beth's fault.I thought that Beth actually in a way kept all their responsibilities together.I think she really cared about her son.And after all,responsibilities are as important as emotions.

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I've said this in other threads, but this movie is more sophisticated than the "Beth is bad/Conrad is good" interpretation that is often taken from it. It's actually quite complex in how it develops Beth's character. You can see her from all angles, interacting with all types of people in the movie on different levels and for different purposes. Redford actually is quite sympathetic to her character if you watch the movie closely enough. Pay attention to the scene where she gazes sadly at the mannequin in the shopping mall, for instance. That scene was included for a reason.

Conrad is also shown to be petulant and passive-aggressive in his interactions with his mother at the beginning of the movie. It is only after he works with Dr. Berger that he begins to deal with his anger and accept his mother's emotional limitations for what they are. He evolves during the movie, but she does not, because she is acting in a way that she believes--and has always believed--is the right way to act in the circumstances.

The fact that she leaves at the end of the movie is not an assignment of guilt, but a realization on her part that she is in an emotionally different place than the rest of the family and that she won't be able to continue living in that home until that emotional distance is reconciled, if it ever is reconciled.

In her own way, that's showing that she cares about their happiness, but it's not the clean resolution that many people then, and now, would have liked from the film.

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This is spot on.

I saw this film when it came out and a couple times on tape and I always looked at it as Conrad is the vulnerable one, dad is the sympathetic one and mom is the bad guy. Tonight watching it, I actually thought that Mary Tyler Moore stole the show and that her character is actually the important one in the whole thing. Partly because she has no revelation and partly because she is sitting on as much or more than Conrad is and while we see him grapple with his part of it, we never see her look at it. That is why she is opposed to the psychiatrist, she can't look for fear of what she will see.

The scene where Conrad hugs her is stunning. Look at her, she is stunned.

I don't know that I agree with you about why she leaves or maybe I never thought about it like that, for me she leaves because to stay would be to have to confront what is there below the facade so it is easier to leave. But your point about being emotionally different is valid.

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That is why she is opposed to the psychiatrist, she can't look for fear of what she will see.
Some people don't see a shrink because they think nothing is wrong with them, or feel too above it all, or it's an inconvenience. I don't think Beth even thought deeply enough about being fearful.

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Perhaps not consciously. But unconsciously? Very possibly so!

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Conrad is also shown to be petulant and passive-aggressive in his interactions with his mother at the beginning of the movie...He evolves during the movie, but she does not, because she is acting in a way that she believes--and has always believed--is the right way to act...The fact that she leaves at the end of the movie is not an assignment of guilt, but a realization on her part that she is in an emotionally different place than the rest of the family... until that emotional distance is reconciled, if it ever is reconciled.
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I see Conrad as like Beth in many ways, but he also had a part of his father in his makeup, which allowed a warmer side to his character. That said, we didn't really know about Conrad and his relationship with his mother prior to Buck's death. Was he still petulant and passive aggressive towards her when Buck was alive? Conrad had been through a triple whammy, blaming himself for his brother's death and then being hospitalized for his suicide attempt, and then dealing with an aloof, cold mother who he deep down knows that she preferred Buck to him.

Beth was understandably pained too, she just couldn't, or didn't know how cope with what she was feeling. It was all foreign to her and a full blown narcissist like Beth doesn't have the ability to deal or confront herself, let alone deal with what was going on with the rest of those close to her. If she can't reconcile herself, she would never fully reconcile with Calvin or Conrad. She thought she could fix breakages, as though no-one could ever tell. There was no "genuine" or real breathing soul to Beth.


Don't eat the whole ones! Those are for the guests. 🍪

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I'm going to have to watch this movie again.

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I always saw Beth as someone who didn't allow herself to go through all the stages of grief and got stuck in some denial phase. Before her older son died, she had a textbook perfect life: big house, fun marriage, charming older son, quiet younger son, rich friends, parties, golf, house on lake. Then hell hit her life and she lost her spirit. I think she didn't like the psychiatrist because it was embarrassing to go to one in the '70s. She didn't want her rich friends to think they were a family of mental cases.

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We don't know enough about Beth's personality before Buck's death,

She may have always wanted the perfect family, but it is likely with Buck in her life, she was happy. Probably because she didn't have conflict in her life with Buck in her life. She can't handle conflict in her life, and will either change the subject, walk away, or get defensive.

Beth needs to have a plastic bubble that she can live in, for her to be happy. When Buck died, she blamed Conrad probably because in her mind, "Conrad was totally irresponsible for not heading back when the conditions on the lake got bad"

Beth was conditionally taught not to show emotions, and whatever you do in Beth's world, you do not expose family conflict in public. Conrad's suicide attempt should have been a cry for help, but for Beth, it wasn't. Mess is totally unacceptable to Beth.

Beth did the motherly role things that she was expected to do. But cared more about the blood on her towels than the reason why they were there. The fact that she was off traveling to foreign countries while Conrad was in the hospital, symbolically shows that she wanted to get as far away from Conrad as possible. Calvin says one time Beth couldn't come in the Christmas fight because she was sick with the flu.

Calvin says, "When Buck died, it was as if you buried all your love with him." The only time Beth tries to show some emotion to Conrad is when he and she talk about the Pigeon. Once Conrad brings up Buck, she changes the subject. She also has a brief moment of emotion when she takes her suitcase at the end. When Beth could no longer control her world, the way she wanted, she had to leave.

Joe

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Beth is not a good person sorry she isn't. R.I.P. To Mary Tyler Moore and thanks for a great performance!

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Not everybody needs to be a good person, and its good that not everybody is one.

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[deleted]

I adore this powerful film. In fact, as much as I rate Martin Scorsese and think he probably deserved to get a Best Director Academy Award that year for Raging Bull, I'd still give the Best Picture Oscar to Ordinary People, which is truly touching and poignant in a way that perhaps the more artistically accomplished but relatively remote Raging Bull isn't.

However, the ending does leave me feeling rather conflicted. On one hand, I find Conrad and Calvin's reconciliation, and Beth's fundamental inability to break free of her icy shell and move on, as they are attempting to do, incredibly touching and bittersweet. On the other hand, I sometimes wonder if there is a hint of misogyny in the depiction of this family, with Beth, who I admittedly find to be a very credible, very convincing character, superbly rendered by the late Mary Tyler Moore, almost cast, by default, as the film's de facto villain whose emotional frigidity is implied to be the factor that is preventing the rest of the family progress healthily with their grief (and thus, must be cast from the family home in order for Conrad and Calvin to somehow flourish).

Of course, we should all be sophisticated enough to process family dramas in which the main female character is presented as the most antagonistic individual, without it coming across as some form of sexism. In real life, people are flawed and complex irrespective of gender, race and sexuality, and it would be very reductive and shallow to always end up with a scenario in which only old white men were the de facto villains, and, besides, the novel from which Ordinary People was adapted was authored by Judith Guest, a woman. But, like I say, the film's resolution, whilst undeniably powerful and incisive, does leave me somewhat conflicted.

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You already mentioned one issue in your post: Your parents never thought of getting divorced, they fought often. They managed to express and afterwards deal with conflicts. Conrad's parents did not. They never fought. Conflicts were no-goes. But, in real life conflicts happen, even if just by accidents. So what can you do to ignore them: establish a tight routine, stick to it and love it. This is what Beth did. There is the tight & private family life and social events and holidays to look forward to.

There was one scene: They go to a superficial party. This is Beth's chosen world and she loves it. Calvin feels more occupied with his son's well-being and is not in the mood. He feels to do something spontaneous - go to the movies. What does Beth do: she does not say no, this could cause a fight. She says yes, knowing that they still go as expected to the party.
After the party the situation is changed, Calvin is relieved, Beth is not satisfied. He could express to other people what his son is going through in a way he can't at home. And this is exactly the worst Beth can imagine: he violated the strictly seperated private and public routine. What should other people think. For Beth means danger. She needs her fun, the superficial social events as compensation to controll herself all the time.

So is she evil, is it her fault? This movie does not include categories such as good and evil, or singulary fault for events. Bucks' death was partly an accident, partly adolescent recklessness. Maybe Conrad could have saved him if he had sacrificed for him. Beth is accused of not loving Conrad, we do not know if this is true, or its rather that she can't really connect anymore which is often the case for parents when their children grow up, and this is a special case with Buck's death and Conrad's suicide attempt. Maybe Calvin loved Conrad more than Buck and could connect better to him. Watching the movie, I did not have the expression it was Beth's fault, but I had the expr

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So, watching the movie, I did not have the expression it was Beth's fault, but I had the expression that all this was most difficult for her, because she did not know how to deal with it and had nobody she could really express what she was going through. I think that is exactly what Conrad understood in the end: His mother is not mean, but she is truly helpless and lonely.

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Even if Beth's emotions are complex, I don't find the reasons behind them particularly so. What I read from her characterization is that Buck was her favorite son. She respected strength and confidence, two traits that Conrad sorely lacked. When Buck was around she was able to tolerate Conrad and refrain from showing the disdain that later became so transparent. I don't think she blamed Conrad for not being able to save Buck. Rather, I think her post-Buck discontent originated in what for her was the very unpleasant expectation of showing the same love for Conrad that she did for Buck, something that she knew deep down was futile. I suspect she hated this part of herself that was unable to show love for the other son, and the more she became aware of how she was failing to meet this expectation the more she rejected putting in the effort. I think this is not altogether different from a failed marriage when a husband or wife falls out of love or perhaps realizes they never loved their spouse to begin with. At first they feel sad and confused. For a while they try to recapture what they had or thought they had. Upon realizing that reviving dead emotions is doomed to fail, the sadness turns to hatred. They wonder, why should I hate for myself for not showing feelings I don't actually have? Not having the courage to get out of the situation outright, they take out their anger on those they're "supposed to love." This doesn't make Beth evil so much as out of touch with herself. Calvin was right to divorce her for Conrad's sake.

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I understand what you're saying, but I think a relationship between and mother and child cannot really be compared to that of a married couple. You don't "fall out of love" with a child. Unless your child has done something completely unforgiveable, you will always love them.

I don't see that Conrad has done anything so terrible that his mother should stop loving him. He simply needs more love and understanding than she is equipped to give.

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I guess I disagree. Intuitively, it seems very plausible to me that some parents can stop loving their children for egotistical reasons. In Beth's case, for example, she might expect in her children a reflection of her own more aggressive, assertive personality. Beth likely saw that in Buck and not in Conrad, thence rendering Conrad a tremendous disappointment and eventually someone she regrets having in her life, feelings vastly amplified by Buck's tragic absence. I couldn't say for certain that this happens from personal experience, but based on how humans can treat others close to them who aren't their children I can easily see this happening. I'm not so sure the mother-child bond is immutable. I'd say there's a lot of evidence to the contrary.

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I just don't believe that Beth would simply leave her son's life and never see him again. A marriage is an entirely different type of relationship.

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After watching this movie again, I do believe the movie is not fair with the mother. The speech the husband makes to her at the end is brutal. I don't blame her for leaving.

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The speech the husband makes to her at the end is brutal. I don't blame her for leaving.


Beth was being blamed for being the way she was. She got called out and by the only person that could do it to her.

She left because her husband fell out of love with her. He finally saw what she was doing, in other words, she was a narcissist who couldn't cope with the truth and reality, nor able to process it in a way to see how damaging she had become to those close to her. It is subtle, but she was toxic.

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In your diagnosis, you demonstrate why she deserved more sympathy than the film allowed.

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I find Beth sympathetic in the sense she couldn’t wholly acknowledge or take full accountability for her family situation.

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And after all,responsibilities are as important as emotions.


Beth wasn't being responsible, because she allowed her family dynamic to crumble all around her after Buck's death. She didn't seem to comprehend that one son had died, another tried to deliberately die and all she cared about was her image as though she could control everything that happens around her.

I don't feel you understood Beth's character. She wasn't a horrible person, but she couldn't really love, well not in the way her husband could. It took a lot of courage for Calvin to express what he did to Beth. The irony is here, Calvin told her he didn't love her anymore. He fell out of love with her.

His surviving son's own state of mind was more important to him and it should have been to Beth as well. It wasn't!

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