How does Haber remember?


I just re-watched this for the first time since I was something like 14 years old, and it's a very intriguing piece-- due mostly to the great story and acting, as the production values are obviously very low, and the direction a bit stodgy. But still entertaining nevertheless.

But I am confused by one thing: Dr. Haber shouldn't ever remember the world from before each of George's dreams, should he?

In fact, he DOESN'T notice a difference the first time, when George dreams about the horse. And when George awakes, it's though Haber has always had that picture of the horse on his wall.

But thereafter, Dr. Haber DOES seem to realize the changes that are taking place... the new institute, the plague, etc. With the plague, for example, he has memories of his own parents dying, of all the things that happened during, but he specifically also realizes that George's dream caused it. Margaret, on the other hand, doesn't seem to remember that there once was a world where the plague DIDN'T happen. George even yells at her, asking whether she remembers. Indeed, she never really realized his ability except for a period late in the film, but later George is able to dream a version of Margaret where she doesn't even know him (IMO, he should have dreamed that Dr. Haber never met him).

So is this just a plot hole we're supposed to overlook, or is it explained? Because if George's dreams supposedly change the past as well as the present, Dr. Haber should NEVER believe that George ever caused any of it, but that things have always been that way. Right?

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mabe Dr had a way to remember, or his machine help him to retain his last memories. Later in film he perfected his machine to tap into georges dream powers, to harnest it so Dr. Haber can use for himself.

To me Things that happen in dreams is reflection of reality, and when you dream it, its already there in your memory, Awake your brain records it when your awake, And when you dream, your brain uses what is recorded and makes its own reality when dreaming. Also When george dreams, and changes reality, it changes the phisical, but the reality of past still remanes in the conscience or sub-conscience, some people surpress it, specially the bad memories. So Margaret on other hand was very frightened after george mention the plague so she surpressed it. Dr. Haber, hes an expert on dreams and understands dreams and he forces himself to remember, he wasnt scared but upset at george and he didnt surpress it, so he remebers.

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Haber remembers, when he has the 2nd session with George. He asks for something for himself,or he thought he was asking for the public good.
And George doesn't dream Haber's ability away, to remember, after that.
And after that, the 3rd session, Haber,states , "I am going to make the whole world, right".

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That's interesting, I hadn't thought of that. I remember Haber remembering the pre-dream states after he had him stop the rain; Haber saw daylight through his office window (of which he'd never seen before, or it had been many years) and went outside while the sky was clearing. He came back downstairs to see his secretary in a sun dress, etc. I had always been under the impression that if your close to George when it happened, or knew about the hypnotic suggestion just before the dream, that you would remeber as well. Like Heather did when he dreamed about the plague. She was there for the session and thus saw its effects.

In any case it was an excellent book (quick read too), and probably my favorite sci-fi of all time; especially in terms of the social commentary presented (and I've been a hardcore trekkie since my youth when I saw the first airings of the original series). It's eastern mysticism meets western science and the questions it asks are very heavy ones.



...Guess What S1m0ne! We have now entered an age where we can manufacture fraud faster than our ability to detect it

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[deleted]

Hmmm, sadly, no one has answered this yet in the past 2 years. I have posted similar questions of my own. Haber should be like everyone else and NOT remember the changes George is causing. But Haber DOES remember. So the question remains..How??

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Whoever is near George when he has a world-changing dream can remember the changes. This is more apparent in the book than the movie.

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LargeStuffed....I just read the book, and the answer to your question is that Haber can remember because he is in the same room as George. The effective dreams are remembered by anyone near George. That is not clear at all in the movie, but made very clear in the book.

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Thanks, chet! That certainly does help explain it, including the horse dream (because he dreams that one at home, I think, before undergoing any hypnosis).

Maybe I'll read the book as well... I always liked this story, and it would be nice to get a more comprehensive version of it.

The war is not meant to be won... it is meant to be continuous.

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No, the horse dream is the first one in Haber's office. In the movie, Haber doesn't suspect anything. But in the book, Haber knows the mountain painting has changed into a horse, and he immediately starts manipulating George from their very first session. In the movie, he didn't discover the dreams and start manipulating him until the 2nd or 3rd session.

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Ah, OK. Well, that still explains that little enigma, which probably should have been addressed in the film. Thanks!

The war is not meant to be won... it is meant to be continuous.

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I always understood it as an issue of proximity to George.

In the first session, Haber had the revised memory of Tammany Hall being the portrait, but when George reminded him of the picture of Mount Hood, he seemed to recall, and there's a momentary expression of confusion, since he apparently remembered both. He couldn't be certain, so he experimented in the following session, with the weather. Mrs Crouch, the secretary, noticed the change as well, since she was evidently close enough to the session when the dream took place.

Anyone sitting in on the session would share both the revised memory and a fading memory of how it used to be, something that grew less distinct, like awakening from a dream and gradually losing the memory of it. This was how Heather LeLache remembered the world before the Plague. In your post, you called her Margaret? But she did remember - it's just that the effect of competing memories was extremely disorienting. Although she seemed to accept the change, Haber could not take any chances. She had seen a demonstration of the power of George's dreams, and it is not surprising that, once Haber had fuller control over George, Heather inexplicably ceased to exist, probably at Haber's request.

You'll notice that after the Plague, Haber took care to send Mrs Crouch away on a petty research errand, not so much because he needed the data, but because he needed her further away from the epicenter of the effective dream, so that Mrs Crouch would not experience the memory of previous reality.

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Actually, he *does* remember the first effective dream. If you watch carefully, after Orr leaves the office having despaired of convincing Haber of his ability, Haber looks back at the picture with a confused look on his face. That's actually fairly true to the book, where an internal dialogue is presented in which the two memories of the picture compete in Haber's mind.

My main candidate for "plot hole in the movie" is that George "recovers" Heather (thanks to a song by the Beatles) *after* he has already lost the ability to dream effectively. I'll have to go back and reread the novel, but I'm pretty sure that in the book, he dreams the reality in which they are married before Haber takes away George's ability to dream effectively.

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