How bad is the animal abuse?
I've only seen clips of this film, and after seeing The Deer Hunter again recently, I'm curious how bad the animal abuse in this. Cockfights, a horse is blown up. True?
shareYes, it's true.
share
MovieChat Forums > Heaven's Gate (1981) Discussion > How bad is the animal abuse?
Lot of conflicting rumors and gossip, the truth of which we'll probably never know.
What we do know: There is a cockfight in the film, but of which we don't see any chickens killed. Several horses take some nasty falls, although there still arguments whether trip wires were really used (and certainly happens in plenty films beyond this... you don't see animal lovers raise a fuss over Beatty's Reds); There's the famous exploding horse, but there's no doubt that it was an accident; Ronnie Hawkins was on the horse at the time!
Okay, so the horse being blown up is actually IN the movie.
I know tripwires, which is abuse, is something you see in a lot of movies, pretty much 99% of Westerns 1930s-1950s. Even The 13th Warrior used them, which is the last modern big-budget example I can think of.
Still, not only did Heaven's Gate supposedly have more than normal (like horses being bled for use of fake blood), but the fact that the stuff was kept in the film. Like, if you blew up a horse by "accident," to still use that footage, certainly shows a certain mindset, for better or for worse.
Thanks for the responses. When the horse was blown up, how did Ronnie Hawkins not get seriously injured?
There's a brief one-second shot that certainly looks like it, but once again, who knows the truth? (and once again, the horses and cows being bled are no more than rumors).
Yet that would be great: more excuses to have critics and execs attack Cimino for wasting footage (and believe me they would). And what mindset? I know the knee-jerk reaction is that it's immoral and exploitative to benefit from a horse being killed. But at the same time, if through no fault of your own, a horse gets killed, and you end up with a perfect shot, it would be difficult not to use that shot, especially if it's no more obviously graphic than if it was faked, and which no one would notice if it wasn't pointed out to them by the press (as opposed to films that advertise the fact). While it may seem like a conceited or opportunistic response to an outsider, any filmmaker would even get the feeling that it would be worse not to use it, that it would make the animals death even more meaningless. Perhaps its not the right choice, but I can't begrudge any filmmaker for making it.
And it sounds like Ronnie Hawkins was blown off the horse as opposed to being blown up with it.
"But at the same time, if through no fault of your own, a horse gets killed, and you end up with a perfect shot, it would be difficult not to use that shot, especially if it's no more obviously graphic than if it was faked, and which no one would notice if it wasn't pointed out to them by the press (as opposed to films that advertise the fact)."
I do agree... though there are limits. If a stunt man was killed doing a dangerous stunt, but it looked great on camera, do you keep it? In fact Ben Hur kept shots of people getting seriously injured, but it looks amazing.
I do think, from all the rumors of animal abuse though, that while maybe not as bad as some felt, I doubt it was "through no fault of your own." I am curious how it matches up with The Deer Hunter, because there a deer is shot very realistically, but it was a carefully done shot and the deer wasn't actually shot. Did Cimino feel that the shot was too much work, or did he really get a bad wrap on the animal stuff SIMPLY because people wanted more excuses to go after him?
I mean, some people have issues with Apocalypse Now, but since the animal was sedated and it wasn't the filmmakers doing it, it was going to happen regardless, I really don't see how anyone could fault that. What matters is when something is killed just for the sole purpose of the film. "Documentary" Africa Addio brings up some interesting issues regarding this, both with animal poaching AND the execution of human beings.
As for Heaven's Gate, I guess we won't know... unless you were there. In other news, is the film ever getting a real release on DVD?
Not sure about being killed in the shot, but during one filming Lance Henriksen's jacket accidentaly caught fire, however being great actor that he is he stayed in character and dropped the jacked off and just went on commanding his goons and they kept the shot in.
--------------
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for enough good men to do nothing.
Just finished watching this and my first thought was animals were abused inthe making of this. If that's true I am glad Cimino's career has gone nowhere. What an arrogant A-hole.
shareI do agree... though there are limits. If a stunt man was killed doing a dangerous stunt, but it looked great on camera, do you keep it?Well, they used the footage of Vic Morrow & the 2 Asian kids getting killed in Twilight Zone The Movie, when the helicopter malfunctioned & crashed right on top of them. I mean, you don't actually see them getting decapitated but they used the footage of the moment when they get killed for real, so...
Yet that would be great: more excuses to have critics and execs attack Cimino for wasting footage (and believe me they would).Oh my goodness, I wonder why critics & execs attacked him for wasting footage...it couldn't be because he wasted footage, could it? He ran over 1.3 million feet of film just because he was trying to beat Coppala's record of 1 million feet of film he used shooting Apocalypse Now. I can't imagine why execs would be pissed over that, he only went waaaaaaay over budget. Plus you have the stories from all the prop workers about how picky Cimino was & the ridiculous requests he made, and how he shot scenes over & over unnecessarily.
»«ëÕ|{¥(V)
I can't understand your crazy moon language. share
"He ran over 1.3 million feet of film just because he was trying to beat Coppala's record of 1 million feet of film he used shooting Apocalypse Now"
Oh *really*? You have a source for that "fact"?
Please nest your IMDB page, so you respond to the correct person.
Yeah, he wasted footage. So what? Malick wastes footage. Wong Kar-Wai wastes footage. A high shooting ratio is of interest to the historian, but it has nothing to do with the final film.
Cimino wanted to beat Coppola's record. So what? If he said it, it was probably in jest. But even it wasn't... competition breeds better work in filmmakers (another example of the benefits of a healthy culture). Scorsese and De Palma had a friendly rivalry going on the Seventies (as did lots of the film brats); it's quite possible that neither would have done as good a work if they hadn't. Same thing here.
Simply put, United Artists should have allowed Cimino to direct the film he wanted, but they also should have stepped in during moments of excess. Cimino was never so out of control that they couldn't have reined him in if they wanted... And if you believe Steven Bach's account, they ultimately did, and he still managed some of his best work. All this contributes to the false dichotomy that a studio either has to bend over backwards for a megalomaniac or treat the director as a workman-for-hire that must follow their instructions to a tee. This is nonsense. Different directors require different things to reach their potential. A great studio/producer will know how to go about that without stiffing his creativity. If Dino De Laurentiis loved working with Cimino, then UA shouldn't have had a problem.
Poetic justice that Cimino's career bombed after this. Pathetic fool.
shareYes, sad but true. All of the animal violence in Heaven's Gate is real, not simulated.
That Cimino bastard allowed animal cruelty for the sole purpose of making a movie (which was a flop, nevertheless).
As Wikipedia said, "Cimino allegedly killed chickens and bled horses from the neck to gather samples of their blood to smear on actors for Heaven's Gate, and also allegedly had a horse blown up with dynamite while shooting a battle sequence, the shot of which made it into the film."
So yeah, we all must boycott this movie and its director.
"There are few things as fetching as a bruised ego on a beautiful angel."share