MovieChat Forums > Heaven's Gate (1981) Discussion > Cimino has the incredibly bad judgement

Cimino has the incredibly bad judgement


I've seen The Deer Hunter probably a dozen times, and each time I see it, I think less of it. Most of that movie is a waste. Why make a movie about Vietnam and then have the Vietnam section be about something that didn't even happen over there? It's like making a movie about Custer's last stand but, instead of the Indians and Cavalry fighting, the Cavalry plays an epic volleyball match with them. He's made a core symbol of a film about an experience something that was not even part of the actual experience. And the characters don't change in any logical way. The Deer Hunter is highly rated and it has a few good shots in it, but overall it's a mess.

But now that I've seen Heaven's Gate, I realize Cimino could do a hell of a lot worse. This movie is full of incredibly bad choices and instances of outright idiocy.

First, you build elaborate sets and fret endlessly about the placement of them. Then you hire Vilmos Zsigmond, who's one of the best (if not the best) cinematographers who ever lived to photograph it. And then... you cover it all with clouds of dust and smoke so it's all obscured, and you screw with the color to leech out almost everything except brown. It's ridiculous. Getting Zsigmond to photograph clouds of smoke is absurd.

The sound mix is no better. The dialogue is awful to begin with, and half of it is in foreign languages which - in the TCM print I watched - were not even subtitled. But, none of that matters because you can't hear most of it anyway. it's all drowned out by background and ambient noise.

And Cimino obviously would much rather be a choreographer than a director. If this thing had one more song and dance number it'd count as a musical. None of these scenes add a damn thing in any way and do nothing to move the story along. They're ridiculous. I thought the movie was already out of control and then when a rollerskating fiddle-player showed up I almost laughed myself into an aneurysm. The immigrants are supposed to be working and struggling, but you only see that in one or two brief (and hysterically overwrought) scenes. The rest of the time, it's like a big silly carnival. Even during one of the film's few dramatic scenes, Cimino makes sure that through a window you can see a guy juggling. That's a little distracting.

I know Cimino likes to be an "immersive" director, where, instead of really characterizing anyone, he just lets you spend a lot of time hanging out and watching them so you get to know them. That'd be fine if he made wise choices, but he doesn't. He has no idea when to begin and end a story. We start about 20 years before the story with Kristofferson's and Hurt's graduation. There is no reason for this whatsoever, other than it's a way for Cimino to fit in more dancing numbers. It does nothing to characterize them, and then Hurt is shoved into the background, afterward, and none of it has anything to do with Kristofferson later.

Then he doesn't know how to end it. He's got what would be a powerful ending shot, with Kristofferson walking away, but... that's not the ending, because we have needless stuff afterward, with the ambush and all. Then, the epilogue with Hurt aboard the boat does nothing, either. I guess it lets us know he lived, but that's about it. It's ridiculous.

The big payoff battle scene is so badly done it's a shame. You can hardly tell who is where and who they're shooting at. When it came time to actually choreograph something useful, Cimino wasn't interested. Maybe the battle should had been done on rollerskates so he'd do something with it.

There's not much of a story (and what little there is, Cimino doesn't appear to be very interested in), but when there is, it's just stupid. Walken spending a gunfight in a burning cabin to write a note that the cabin's on fire is so brain-dead I'm surprised nobody pulled Cimino aside and said, "You do realize this is stupid on about a dozen different levels, right?" It'd be pretty obvious to anyone that the cabin got burned, even if Walken got out. If Walken didn't get out, his note would burn, too. Etc. There's a false start where the war seems like it's finally going to start... aaaaaand then nothing happens and we go back to the romantic triangle for half an hour or more.

I tried giving this movie a chance and was actually interested in watching it, because, as bad as the Deer Hunter actually is, it does have a certain fascination to it (once you get through that pointless hour-long wedding scene). But this thing... it's awful. I almost feel like Cimino made it to show his contempt for the studio and movie-making in general. It's like he knew that Deer Hunter got overpraised, decided everyone was an idiot, and said, "Here, I'll make something REALLY awful and watch you guys heap praise upon it! I dare ya!"

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There's not much of a story (and what little there is, Cimino doesn't appear to be very interested in), but when there is, it's just stupid. Walken spending a gunfight in a burning cabin to write a note that the cabin's on fire is so brain-dead I'm surprised nobody pulled Cimino aside and said, "You do realize this is stupid on about a dozen different levels, right?" It'd be pretty obvious to anyone that the cabin got burned, even if Walken got out. If Walken didn't get out, his note would burn, too.


That scene was inspired by an actual event. Heaven's Gate takes many liberties with history, but the real Nathan Champion did write a farewell note while inside a burning cabin.

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That's a ridiculous criticism of the Deer Hunter. You're going to rip it because the events in the movie didn't actually happen? It's a story set during a real event. There never was a Colonel Kurtz who went AWOL in the jungles of Vietnam either, but Apocalypse Now is a great movie.

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[deleted]

"Why make a movie about Vietnam and then have the Vietnam section be about something that didn't even happen over there?"

The Deer Hunter is not "about" Vietnam. It is merely a backdrop. And the fact that there are no documented cases of prisoners being forced to play Russian roulette doesn't make the movie's dramatic premise any less so. It's not a documentary and has no desire to educate the viewer on the Vietnam war and no responsibility to be historically accurate.

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The Deer Hunter is ... not a documentary and has ... no responsibility to be historically accurate.
Then why drag Vietnam and the Vietnam war into it at all?

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Because the story requires that the characters go off to fight in a war. It could just have easily been World War II or the Korean War since the movie doesn't examine the politics of any specific war. But placing the events of the film during the 40s or 50s would make the movie more of a period film. The movie, made in the late 70s (to be released in 1980), is able to stay contemporary (at that time) by setting the events around the most recent war (at that time).

It's no different than Courage Under Fire being set during the Gulf War. Was there anything about that story that required it to be set during the Gulf War? Not that I can think of, but it made it contemporary and (arguably) more relevant at the time.

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Sorry.
I meant that there were specific aspects of The Deer Hunter that required it not to be set in the Vietnam war. Cimino should either have fitted his story to what actually happened in Vietnam or used an imaginary war. To add more lies- or fiction, if you prefer- about a war still fresh in the memory, which was begun and sustained on lies and fiction in the USA was dishonest of Cimino.

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Which brings me back to what I originally said, and you quoted - it's not a documentary, nor does it even remotely imply that it is. It is not "about" the Vietnam war anymore than Apocalypse Now is or than Courage Under Fire is "about" the Gulf War.

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The Deer Hunter began as a screenplay called The Man Who Came to Play by Quinn K. Redeker and Louis Garfinkle. It was about men playing Russian roulette and other locations were considered before the Vietnam War setting was chosen. Michael Cimino and Deric Washburn were hired to rewrite the script, changing the characters to a group of friends from a Pennsylvania steel town and adding the deer hunting sequences. Cimino reportedly didn't want to include the Russian roulette scenes but the studio insisted that he did as they were the basis for the original story.

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Heaven's Gate is about Kris Kristofferson coming from the wealthiest tiny percentage of Americans who control nearly all the wealth of the U.S. The first scene ist there to let us know his and John Hurts background and the youthful idealism declaring old institutions as obsolete. 20 Years later. Hurt has settled into an existence among his class but he can't stand himself for that an has become an alcoholic. Kristofferson on the other hand tries to help the underprivileged but he never really commits to them. Amazing the first scene in the train. The train is totally overcrowded but he's a lone passanger in the first class coach.
His is a life of half measures, because in the end he will never marry the underclass girl he loves. He may run 20 years from his predicted future: The fotograph with the women from the dance, but will end excatly where he's supposed to be.

Ending on the boat. He ended up with the upper class girl. She seems to have found happyness in laudanum or opium the way she looks. Another character who can't stand the life she chose. So in the end: She, John Hurt, Kris Kristofferson have followed what was expected of them and nothing from their youthful spirit is left. Society is still the same and will still be ruled by the richest 1 percent of the country.

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Zwolf, I enjoyed your post. Personally I like the dance pieces but I enjoy choreography and thought this movie was beautiful. But I agreed with your analysis of everything else.

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For all the supposed realness of west this movie represents, I don't think any of them contemplated the amount of dust from the people, horses, and the trains.

That's why half the scenes are filled with it.

Messing with the color didn't help. Everything seems to be in soft focus too. Not sure if that was deliberate.

Deer Hunter is grossly overrated, and this one is worse. Sad this was the end of UA.

😞

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