MovieChat Forums > Altered States (1980) Discussion > my philsophical question!

my philsophical question!


for some reason i thought of this during the part with the imagery of cells:

Whats the difference between a human and a human cell?

They are both life. But a human is aware of its consciosness. i thinc we can assume that cells arnt self aware. its strange because i thinc stuff such as cells are different to humans but is there anything scentific to prove that humans have something more then cells do?

its easy to argue that they dont because its hard to believe that at some point in the evolutionary process we were given or attained something such as a soul.

But surely self-awarness counts for something?

i dont no why i said human cell. i guess i could have used anything such as moss or fungus or small organsms in a pond.

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well that's the thing. Life is life. You should read this book "the selfish gene" by richard dawkins. In my humble opinion, i agree with the premise of the book. We are just dna recepticles, and all it's trying to do is live on. WHich is through procreating with the next set of genes that will insure that. From there you can just look at Evolutionary psychology and ethology, where these scientist study humans/human behaviour like they would any other animal (without any cultural or ideaological interferences). Now of course we are homo saipiens saipiens (wise wise men) so rather then runing around like vessels of unadulterated psychology (animals), these primordeal instincts/survival traits are our foundations, then we have intellect above it, and they both influence each other.

What i can't understand is how people claim some ideaology is "truth", when really you are just born into it, depending on where you live on this earth (wherever your dna ended up). ALso just looking at history/art history and just look at how other beliefs influence/create others. I mean all religions had a begining, so what was "truth" before that? The most predominant religions exist because in their teachings they are "crusading" religions. It's how buddahism came to china, how islam came to parts of africa and spain (moors) and how christianity came to west and south america.

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nicely put.....

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Good discussion. Too bad the thread is so neglected.

In response to the OP (if you're still out there): I think AS touches on this idea but also turns it inside out. Jessup regresses, not only to a Cro Magnon or whatever, but ultimately to a shapeless molecular mass and finally to a single undifferentiated cell (a stem cell, I suppose). The point is that he loses his human identity in the process, or at least the dormant "junk" DNA in his cells -- which is ancient and pre-human -- become activated and switch off his human identity. And the only way his humanity can be reactivated is through Emily.


"Look what you did to my shirt."

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i'm not a believer but i think you have mistaken at one point. Religions didn't "start" at sometime. They say that religion is here because god want human to pull themself together. kind of a warning and manual. they always exists but we moronheads just can't have it so it sent those books...

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Thanks for writing this. Outstanding breakdown and really insightful.

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Self awareness counts for everything. It is the whole thing. And, ponder this: "We are all made up of stardust. When you look up into the sky at the stars, realize that you are the universe looking at itself," Carl Sagan.

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"Self awareness counts for everything."

Indeed. And I know few people today with the convicted self-awareness of an Ed Jessup.


"Look what you did to my shirt."

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I just finished watching the film and as someone interested in 'experiences' I found this film fascinating from the outset.

In the film we are told about the 'unborn soul' and the regression of life.

In the scene where Jessup 'regresses' to a primitive being I got the idea that he had reached a point where the idea of a 'soul' was first 'created'.

There are scenes where Jessup describes the beings he was hallucinating about and he is quite descriptive i.e. 'the didn't use their knuckles to walk' etc. My opinion is that the film was trying to point out that this was a period in the evolution of humans where the idea of a soul and a self awareness was coming about.

Although I enjoyed the film I was still unsure as to Jessup's full intentions towards the end.....was he just trying to push the limits of human conscience or was it something more specific....

Discussion would be most welcome...

"When all are one and one is all, to be a rock and not to roll....."

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You could also ask, "what's the difference between a cell and a finger"?
In fact, very little. But I guess the real difference occurs once there is a brain... that's where consciousness comes from. Somehow all the synapses create thoughts, and allow for emotions and a certain understanding of time and sequential consequences. Monkeys already know how to create tools... which proves that they have an idea of cause and effect... which allows them to project an action into the future. I guess all "higher" animals have a certain consciousness... I'm thinking of porpoises, whales, elephants and the great apes.
Perhaps mammals in general? But then, a spider builds a web (like a tool) and must either do it totally instinctively or somehow know that the result will be "dinner".
Don't know if anything I've said here helps, but at least it's worth thinnking about...

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Check out this http://www.redicecreations.com/specialreports/2006/01jan/holographic.html page on the theory of the Holographic Universe. It gives a good high level view on the theory and does explain some interesting phenomena one may experience with having an “experience” and also covers our brains amazing ability to interpret frequency (sound/light/touch/ect) and remember and recall these events immediately even decades later. It's a fascinating read.

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Fascinating article, tron. ("Holographic universe" will now be part of my vocabulary.) Also very relevant when you note that "holographic" aspects of the isolation tank in the film: it almost becomes an externalization of Jessup's mental lanscape.



1.) The Lord loves a working man.
2.) Don't trust whitey.

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Try tackling "Goedel, Escher, Bach," by Douglas Hofstadter. Hofstadter is knowledgable in several disciplines, with a focus in artificial intelligence. It's a dense read, and long, but you don't have to read it straight through. Find the chapters about the brain and read those. In particular, read the chapter "Ant-eater's Fugue," and the following chapter. The book covers more than your question, but your question is at the heart of it. He's asking, "What is self-awareness? What makes us a self?" It's a *beep*

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GEB is good. So is The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind, by Julian Jaynes. (Published in 1976. Jessup would undoubtedly have been aware of it.)


"Look what you did to my shirt."

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I'm sorry if I'm stating the obvious, but I believe this film is inspired by the work of John C Lilly. Dolphin consciousness. Flotation tanks.

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It is. But the character in question seems like the kind of intellectual who would get off on Jaynes' book.


"Look what you did to my shirt."

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[deleted]

The whole is more than the sum of it's parts.

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Killing people is easy...if you can forget the taste of sugar.

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You mean its parts (not "it's"). It's = it is

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Aomeba, a single cell organism is self aware and has conciuosness, while being a single cell. It is unknown if it is aware of its conciuosness, jsut like its unknown if, say, bears are. We often call the electronic inpulses in our brran that is what creates the though "soul". it is however in no way similar to what religion wants us to think.

---------------------------------------------
Applied Science? All science is applied. Eventually.

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Might be slightly off topic but has it not been confirmed that Dolphins are self aware? And therefore have a state of self consciousness similar to humans?


~What if this is as good as it gets?!~

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The word is consciousness (not "conciuosness"). :-) And brain (not "brran").

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This post is absurd. What is the difference between a cell and a human? If you are trying to equate them, they can only ever be on equal grounds in the most abstract sense - that is, in the idea that they both are 'alive'. But you should realize, in order to arrive at such an abstract answer, you had to strip away or ignore a lot of inconvenient data - like, everything that separates and distinguishes a man from a cell, which is millions and millions of points!

Not to mention, the idea that a cell and a human are alive in the same way is a inherent literary bias that stems from the literate world's fascination with uniform continuity. If a cell is alive, it is not alive in the same way in which our word alive signifies, it is merely that there is no truly appropriate word for the unique 'aliveness' of a cell, particularly because we have no experience with such a state.

Here is one major different: a man is composed of cells, a cell is not composed of men. How can you try to align these two things?

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All these answers were quite correct-especially the one with stated Hawkings,Richard there...but this is all so depict of what one call deconstruction of tought and feelings,just what it is like speaking and writing...that is to say that the logocentric point of wiev dont hold up in the primordian man-because there was not the word,the logon in the beginning...in the beginning was this...then the logic came out and people were satisfyed becaquse life had a meaning..in reality we create our own meaning,trough children,arts,women etc...ita all uo to you...but there are good choices and bad ones.

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Uh oh, Sunray. You misspelled some words in yer post. Better be prepared for batterson the Word-Cop to come swooping down and chastise you properly and then throw you in Word-Jail for yer highly improper and criminal misuse of yer computer's keyboard!!1!1one








"A turtle without moisture is like a paperweight with nostrils."

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