Three Big Lies In A Row?

The "Debunk" of the three lies.

I had a little time, so I thought I would continue with my "proof" that the three statements are lies, as someone is bound to ask. I would love to know why the film is truthful all the way through, and then tells three big lies in a row!

---------------------------------

This is my thinking on the "debunking" of each individual lie on its own, and the source(s) that I get the information from. Feel free to point out where my logic is flawed; I am more concerned with learning than with being right.

* FIRST LIE:

"A So-So Entertainer."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIiZuAVZH4w

Now, I honestly think that this piece speaks for itself regarding Mr. Fosse's talent as an entertainer, but I'll elaborate some, just for the fun of it.

What this is, is a little creation that was conceived/choreographed/performed by Mr. Fosse, and his wife, dancer Gwen Verdon. It is taken from the film version of "Damn Yankees," and is really meant as a bit of fun. It should bring a little smile to your face. While it is true that it was not all that frequently that Mr. Fosse actually took the stage and danced/entertained an audience, (and here I refer more to his overall and later style, as opposed to the early "Riff Bros." years,) this clip certainly proves, on its own, that he is perfectly capable of being very entertaining.

* SECOND LIE:

"Not much of a humanitarian."

My sources for "debunking" this are Martin Gottfried's, "All His Jazz: The Life And Death Of Bob Fosse (A Lesson In Style)," and from the actual definition of the word, "humanitarian," itself.

I have cross-referenced the definition, and gather my information from many different places here. Words that are often associated with the word "humanitarian" are "compassionate" and "caring." In plain English, what this word means is, "Someone who cares about humans (humankind.)"

The following is from Mr. Gottfried's book, and it certainly would seem as though we are talking about someone who cares about his fellow man:

"'If you ever have any problems, call me. My number is in the book,' as it was and always had been."

In this particular instance, it was said to everyone in the 1987 touring cast of the "Sweet Charity," revival when it was playing in Washington D.C. And ~that~ is a pretty large company.

Does he really, honestly come off as being someone who doesn't care? I will be the first to admit that a he had his demons and his flaws, but apathy was not among them.

* THIRD AND FINAL LIE:

"This cat has never been anybody's friend."

This is so ridiculous as to be not even requiring a response, but I will again cite some examples from Mr. Gottfried's book.

From an early age, Mr. Fosse formed easy friendships with girls. Indeed, in his youth and his adolescent years, he often felt closer to females than to males, as friends go.

Then, there is the long business "friendship" that he and Charles Grass shared as "The Riff Brothers."

Finally, I would mention the close and intimate friendship that he always shared with Gwen Verdon, when they were living together, and also when he was living with another woman. She was his closest friend, and shared in his most fruitful collaborations. She was welcome anywhere in his life, with the exception of the set or editing room of a film he was working on. Mr. Gottfried states that, once Gwen accepted that, they were closer than most husbands and wives ever are.

No one's friend? He was ~everyone's~ friend!

I had an idea about this matter, and my plan is to see how it works out when I rewatch the film. Try it on for size. In the meantime, I thought I would post about it here, so that anyone who reads this can give it a good think.

Here's what we have:

KNOWN FACT: Almost the whole film is "true," albeit sometimes in a creative way. Suddenly, right near the end, three lies are told, in a row. These are obvious lies, and we all know that they are uncharacteristically untrue.

THE $64 QUESTION: Why would Mr. Fosse suddenly and abruptly begin to interject in an obvious way three lies about his personal nature, that are Big Lies, and not even close to believable?

HYPOTHESIS…? Are we meant to get to this part of the film, know that these three statements are not the truth, accept them as lies, and then "dig deeper" here for the reason a known truth teller is suddenly stating not only lies, but what I would call "tall tales"……..?

I would love to know what you think.

OK, I think I actually may have "cracked" this one! At least, the idea seems plausible to me, and does not rely upon any knowledge outside of the film.

I am still, however, desirous of learning of the opinions of others, so please do share what you think. :)

Another personality trait of Fosse (and Gideon):
He was a major perfectionist. Perfectionists tend to be their own harshest critics. No matter what they do, it never measures up to the perfection that they envision. Therefore, Fosse may not have considered those statements lies.

Also, from a story structure point of view and a joke construction point of view, that last introduction is the payoff of the couple earlier "Great entertainer. Great humanitarian. And my close personal friend for <mumble> years." intros on TV.

I think your appreciation of Mr. Fosse's accomplishments may be influencing your attitude toward those statements. First of all, remember that the statements are being made about the character of Joe Gideon, who is a fictionalized version of Mr. Fosse. Therefor, statements made about Gideon must be seen in the light of how the character was being presented in the movie, not "lies" about Fosse himself. That being said ....

Fosse was a great choreographer and director. As an entertainer or performer, he never scaled the heights. He wanted to be the next Astaire or Kelly. He wasn't; he simply didn't have that level of talent or charisma. It's worth remembering that his big break came when he got to choreograph about forty seconds of Kiss Me Kate, wherein he wasn't the lead, or the second male lead. He was just a minor supporting character. Fortunately, those forty seconds led him into an area where he was incredibly talented, choreography. Which in turn led him into another area where he proved to be supremely talented, directing. But as a performer, he was just so so.

As far as him being a humanitarian, I don't know that much about his life. But humanitarian involves more than looking out for the cast of one show. It means devoting time, effort, and financial resources toward helping other people outside your personal sphere. Did Fosse do this? I don't know, but I would need examples of his humanitarian activities to call denial of them a lie.

I also don't know enough about Fosse's life to know how many good friends he had, and how devoted a friend he was to them. But I do know that I'm not going to call a line in a movie script a lie. It was supposed to be a humorous jab at the character of Joe Gideon, not an absolutely true statement about Bob Fosse.

All That Jazz is one of my favorite movies. I've loved it since the first time I saw it, and I have also enjoyed much of Mr. Fosse's other work. But I'm not going to get bent out of shape over three humorous lines at the end of the movie, and call them lies because they don't jibe with a hero worship of the man.




We provide ... Leverage.

I think the point is that the introduction at the end is the truth framed within Joe Gideon's self image. Ben Vereen's character introduces EVERY one of his guests with the same 3 lies: A GREAT entertainer, a GREAT humanitarian, and my DEAR DEAR friend for {whatever number} years... but it is a showbiz affectation, we can not accept that EVERYONE who ever appears on Ben Vereen's show to be those things, and the disingenuous intro is something Joe expresses contempt for the several times it is portrayed/shown. When Joe is hallucinating his "final appearance on the great stage of life" both his aforementioned perfectionist and hyper-critical self-image substitutes Ben Vereen's fake intro with what Joe considers a genuine and honest introduction.