David Groh: written out, or requesting to leave?
always wondered about that
shareHe was written out when the writers realized that Rhoda was funnier single than married. I remember there was an interview he did for a newspaper once about ten years ago (I think he was performing in a 'local theater') and he reminisced on his 'Rhoda' run. He was contracted for three seasons (74/5; 75/6; 76/7) and was written out in the first few weeks of Season 3, and made 'guest appearances' every so often until mid-season (when the writers wanted him 'off' completely, so viewers would get used to NOT seeing him).
Groh said he was not upset with the decision, since it was Harper's show, and the writers needed to do what was best for her character, not so much the rest of the cast. Groh also said even thugh he was let go in the beginning of season 3, he was still paid for the full season until his contract expired - and that was fine by him.
Personally, I never thought he belonged on the show. I mean he was the prime example of the sexy 70s guy - macho and handsome - which of course, 'Rhoda' in Minneapolis could never catch - or ever would want to. He was more 'window dressing' than anything else, and I think Rhoda in Minneapolis would have been the first to ridicule such a guy.
It was said Judd Hirsch was the original choice to play 'Joe' (he would be one of 'Rhoda's dates' later on in the series). I think he was a much better actor, and more in line with what Rhoda would have been looking for.
"I prefer fantasy over reality TV - like Fox News" - B.Streisand
I have mixed feelings about it. I thought the character of "Joe" was
often a flat-out jerk. On the other hand, fans were so happy that Rhoda
finally landed a guy and there's a sort of sadness that the characters
split up. I also feel the show went majorly SOUTH in its last year.
Those two idiot guys (Ron Silver and the bespectacled boyfriend of
Brenda)added absolutely zippo to the show and we were supposed to believe
Anne Meara as a stewardess??? I think Rhoda was just as funny when
married and the scenario gave the writers interesting scripts (Joan Van
Ark as the ex-wife comes to mind). The first two seasons of "Rhoda"
are the best, in my opinion.
I know the reason he left the show,but had wondered if that was the whole story behind his departure. As I said on another thread, I thought the show was better with him,and that Rhoda was just as funny despite what the writers thought.
However, I never thought he was the most handsome obtainable guy that a woman like Rhoda could not land,especially when love is the basis.
Season 3 was the absolute worst for the series, IMO. They got rid of three supporting characters - Joe, Ida (who left to do her own ill-fated show on ABC)and Martin (no 'Pop' without 'Ma').
So what do they do? They bring in three unlikable, awful recurring characters: 'Gary' (Ron Silver), 'Sally' (Anne Meara), and 'Johnny Venture'. (37 years later, I have to admit Gary was kind of cute and sexy).
Season 4 they got rid of 'Sally' (one of the worst characters on any MTM series) and bring in the semi-regular 'Benny' (the bespectacled guy) as Brenda's boyfriend. Yuck...thank God Walker and Gould returned as Ida and Martin.
I - and other fans - have frequently said it was too bad that they didn't add Cloris Leachman to the cast in season 4. Her series "Phyllis" was axed after two seasons, so for 1977-78 they could have had Phyllis move to Manhattan, and possibly reside in Rhoda's building. THAT would have been fun.
"I prefer fantasy over reality TV - like Fox News" - B.Streisand
Ironically, Ron Silver went on to be in feature films,and seemed well-liked by audiences,though he spoke through closed-teeth. The other guy Ray Buktenica(or whatever) was supposed to be Joyce Dewitt's real life BF(yeah,sure). And Anne Meara has always been enjoyable,otherwise.
So much for casting directors being so self-assured in thinking they are so skilled at what they do
Well, I certainly don't feel the producers made a mistake in having
Rhoda marry. They led up to it beautifully and the two-part wedding
episode is hilarious
IDA: "Mary, you've always been like a daughter to me...so shut up." Lol.
I also love Rhoda's speech to Joe in his apartment the night before
the wedding. Her talk about food, insecurity. And the touching moment
at the elevator between Mary and she. "I've turned to jelly. Oh, I would
think of food!." Then Rhoda's...."I know, Kid. I love you, too." Then
they embrace. Everybody shines in this classic two-parter.
In the shows that followed, it seems they just sort of show Joe, then get
him out of the way, so the story can focus on Rhoda and Brenda (the TRUE
co-star) and Ida.
I still think the first two years are best written and the funniest, and
this has almost noting to do with Joe. But when he leaves, they simply
didn't know what to do with Rhoda and the scripts got pretty lame.
I agree that the 1st two seasons were the best/funniest,as you can see from my posts.
So,the writers couldn't wait to change Rhoda back to single,then didn't know what to do with after they did. Sounds like they didn't know what they were doing(except to make it into the 'The Brenda Show')
I know in season 2, they were thinking of having RHODA pregnant, but then they got rid of the idea, knowing once you brought a kid into the mix, the story lines become limited.
The biggest problem with the show was the fact that they just didn't have a supporting cast that stuck. After a few seasons, there was the departure of Joe, Suzy, Myrna, Ida, Martin...and replaced with the truly unlikeable characters of Gary, Benny, Sally, and even the "Lou Grant" rip-off of her new boss 'Jack Doyle'.
By S5, there was the plan of spinning off "Brenda and Benny" into their own sitcom in the spring of 1979. I recall reading that the writers wanted to marry off Brenda (the series ended shortly after she got engaged and was planning her wedding), and have the newlyweds move outside of Manhattan. I think the writers knew that 'Rhoda' was finished, and there might have been some life left in the characters of 'Brenda and Benny'. Luckily, CBS cancelled the show a few months into the season.
"I prefer fantasy over reality TV - like Fox News" - B.Streisand
Sounds dreadful. In any case, the charm and, well, frankly, innocence of
the early '70's that made the MTM shows so great was dying, show by show,
season by season. SNL, "Saturday Night Fever", punk rock, you name it...
the world had become much more cynical. People really didn't want "warmth"
in their shows. And in "Rhoda's" last season, both "Mary" and "Phyllis"
were history.
Researching Julie Kavner, she sure has said very little about her first
major credit and the show that brught her that first Emmy. She seems
very detached from it. I've heard rumors that Kavner was promised her
OWN spinoff, which didn't happen, of course. I also heard there was
tension/competition between Kavner and Nancy Walker, the lattef being a
no nonsense type of actor. Don't know how true any of this is.
I've heard rumors that Kavner was promised her
OWN spinoff, which didn't happen, of course.
Yes, that was the spin-off I mentioned above, which was to happen in Spring of 1979 - but RHODA was cancelled by then. I wonder if the promise of a spin-off was to lure Kavner back for a fifth season? At any rate, Kavner was great at being the second-banana - starring in her own show could have been the new TITANIC. Besides the point, they already found out a newly married Morgenstern just wasn't funny - they were going to try again with 'Brenda and Benny'????
There was to be yet another cast change by Season 5 as well. By then 'Gary' was gone (Ron Silver did not want to come back to the show for a third year), and they were in the process of bringing his former 'store employee' "Tina" back to the show - getting a job with Rhoda at 'Doyle Costumes'. I believe she was introduced on the very last episode which aired in December, 1978. They were also trying to make Former Miss America (1971)-turned-actress Phyllis George a recurring character as well (she was introduced as a secretary in another company who was in the same building as Doyle Costumes), from what I recall in subsequent articles once the show got axed.
"I prefer fantasy over reality TV - like Fox News" - B.Streisand
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"They already found out the newly married Morgenstern wasn't funny." THAT
is a matter of opinion, as the first two seasons of "Rhoda" (who was
newly married) are incomparably superior to the last two. The genius
was in pushing Joe back as a supporting character and making Kavner the
true co-star.
I don't share in the opinion that having Rhoda divorce worked for the
series at all. It flat out killed the show. Harper never looked
more insecure as an actor or was more UNFUNNY than in those last two
years. Frankly, the show should've been axed after the third year.
Every casting choice the producers made (Gary, Benny, the stewardess)
just got worse and worse.
Maybe Harper was losing interest in the series,as well.
Even if the premise of the divorce could have worked, it didn't. The episodes of her consoling herself and post-divorce shows with Joe seemed endless.
I think something else we're forgetting is how the audience accepted 'divorce' back then. In the mid-70s it was still considered something of a taboo - especially on television (I believe 'Rhoda' and then 'One Day at a Time' featured the only two divorcees on a 'family' sitcom back then. "Good Times" had made Florida a widow, rather than a divorcee on that series; while "Alice" was also widowed and moving out west from the east coast. "Phyllis" was also widowed.).
Divorce was happening, but it still was not as 'accepted' nearly 40 years ago as it is today with our younger and more 'open-minded' generation. There was still that 'old-world' mentality of which divorce was something to be ashamed of, and not talked about, and the divorce rate was not nearly as high back then as it was today.
Consequently, the writers had to take this into consideration, and play it safe and careful on how they would write about 'divorce' and how the characters would play it. As SS said above - "the episodes of her consoling herself seemed endless." She was not the happy-go-lucky divorcee, who was going to crack jokes about her ex husband and her former marriage. (Her friend Sally could, but then again - she was not the star of a sitcom).
It took Norman Lear to break that wall of taboo and introduce 'Ann Romano' (the late Bonnie Franklin) in ONE DAY AT A TIME, to play someone happily divorced, talk about the divorce, and even make jokes and insults about her ex-husband...to make the audience laugh along with her and realize divorce was OK.
Makes me wonder : Would the show/writers have been better off if they made RHODA a young widow - like Alice, Phyllis and Florida - than a young divorcee in 1976?
"I prefer fantasy over reality TV - like Fox News" - B.Streisand
Actually, the first time divorce was handled on TV was in 1962's "The
Lucy Show." Lucy's character was a widow, but co-star Vivian Vance's
"Vivian Bagley" was divorced. Happily. And with a son ta boot! This
was indeed groundbreaking.
As far as I know, the next time this was attempted was in the original
draft for "The Mary Tyler Moore Show." But network executives were
afraid people would subconsciously view Mary as divorced from Dick
Van Dyke. So, she became someone jilted by her fiance.
Didn't Mary jilt her fiance because she decided she wanted to be a career girl in the city versus a housewife in the suburbs?
Actually, the first time divorce was handled on TV was in 1962's "The
Lucy Show." Lucy's character was a widow, but co-star Vivian Vance's
"Vivian Bagley" was divorced. Happily. And with a son ta boot! This
was indeed groundbreaking.
Yes, Vivian (the second banana) was divorced, but not Lucy -as you mention, she was widowed. Even on "Here's Lucy", she plays a widow...not a divorcee.
As I mentioned in my previous post: On 'Rhoda' (in season 3/ 1976-77), Valerie Harper's side-kick was the happy divorcee 'Sally' who made jokes and insults about her ex-husband (played, in one ep by her real-life husband Jerry Stiller). Like Vance, it was OK to have the side-kick divorced, but not the main female character which the show was centered around. (I believe on 'Maude', Bea Arthur's character was also formerly married but was widowed, while her side-kick Vivian was divorced). A curious thing about RHODA - it's not until the beginning of season 4 (September 1977), when Rhoda is officially divorced (in a very funny episode, which welcomed back Nancy Walker). Throughout Season 3, Rhoda is always referred to as 'separated', and it seems the writers tried to nail that point home in almost every episode. (The word 'separated' is used in almost every script, it seems).
In 1975, things started to change ever so slowly...
Two new female-oriented sitcoms were introduced within days of each other the first week of September: "Fay" (starring the acclaimed actress Lee Grant) on NBC, and "Phyllis" (starring Cloris Leachman). Both centered around a single woman in her late 40s, with a daughter in her late teens.
'Fay' was the very first sitcom to have a show built around a divorced female lead character. Written by Susan Harris ("Soap", "the Golden Girls"), it's premise was about divorcee 'Fay', who leaves her husband after 25 years of marriage. She finds a job in a law office, and begins dating - much to the chagrin of her daughter, Linda. (Audra Lindley played her best friend).
The show was well-received by critics and Grant was nominated for an Emmy. The show did not do well in the ratings (Thursdays at 9:30), and NBC cancelled it by the end of October. Grant blasted NBC on the 'Tonight Show' that November, for pulling her show, and being afraid to give it a chance, as well as being 'heavily interrupted' during it's eight-week run, which (she said) helped it lose it's audience. (NBC countered that a sitcom built around a divorced woman was just not 'comedy material' and stood by it's cancellation.)
'Phyllis' was the spin-off character from the MTM show, and premiered a few nights later. CBS played it very safe - making Phyllis a widow ater 25 years of marriage, who moves to San Francisco with her daughter, Bess. The show received mixed reviews, but the audience made it a top 10 hit in the first season (it followed the popular 'Rhoda' on Monday nights). Leachman was also nominated for an Emmy in 1976, opposite Grant. (The show went through a major over-haul by the second season, lost viewers and was quickly cancelled.)
In December 1975, CBS took a chance with Norman Lear. He introduced a single divorced woman (Bonnie Franklin) in her mid 30s, with two teenage daughters, who moves to Indianapolis after 17 years of marriage. Franklin (who passed away five weeks ago) was credited in her obituaries with playing the divorced character very sensitively and making her "smart, independent, yet sympathetic to audiences", which she always credited to Lear's writing as well. "One Day At a Time" became a major hit, and opened the door for more sitcoms which had a single divorced woman as it's lead.
Didn't Mary jilt her fiance because she decided she wanted to be a career girl in the city versus a housewife in the suburbs?
This was the 'new set-up', though as GB pointed out - the original concept was for her to be divorced, but CBS was afraid fans would think she divorced her TV husband Dick Van Dyke, and would have trouble seeing MTM as 'Mary Richards' and not 'Laura Petrie'.
I recall reading an interview about twenty years ago with Leachman, in which she said her character 'Phyllis' was originally written as a newly-divorced woman who was the landlord of Mary and Rhoda, due to the fat that she 'won' the house in her settlement. The writers were not sure audiences would take a liking to her being divorced and talking about her ex-husband, so they made her married - to the unseen but often-talked-about 'Lars'. They made it known she was not happily married, though.
"I prefer fantasy over reality TV - like Fox News" - B.Streisand
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You're splitting hairs. Vance was the CO-STAR of "The Lucy Show." On
ILL, DESI ARNAZ was Ball's co-star and there are several ILL episodes
in which she does not appear.
It was far more groundbreaking to have the female co-star of a major
sitcom divorced in 1962 than it was for Lee Grant to be divorced in
1975. This was hardly earth-shattering.
I also feel the playing out of Lou Grant's divorce was handled with far
more insight and sensitivity (he had to witness his ex-wife remarry later)
than Rhoda's, which was clearly the producers desperately trying to
revamp the show. They failed miserably. The charcters of "Gary",
"Benny" and (especially) Anne Meara (a stewardess???? Come on) were
grossly unfunny. Recently, I've given the last two seasons and these
characters a try again, and they are truly unbearable. But at least
Julie Kavner (so pretty by the end) and Harper remain fun. Same
with Walker. But the other three are a drag.
You're splitting hairs. Vance was the CO-STAR of "The Lucy Show." On
ILL, DESI ARNAZ was Ball's co-star and there are several ILL episodes
in which she does not appear.
Splitting hairs? I don't think Lucille Ball would appreciate that!
The show was centered around Lucille Ball, who was the star of the show titled "The Lucy Show" - and she was a widow, not a divorcee. The show was not about her friend Vivian. The reason VV was in every ep is because there were no other regular cast members of the show, and Lucy needed someone to play off of each week.
A divorced female character to be the star of the show was indeed ground-breaking, which is why NBC was reluctant at first to pick up the show (but they did need a female-lead sitcom after seeing the success CBS was enjoying) and so they took a chance. As Grant would say later - they were nervous with every episode, and never gave her show a fair chance, erring on the side of caution.
As for co-stars, don't forget: Dick York was the CO-STAR of 'Bewitched', and there were several episodes in which he did not appear. Liz Montgomery was the star of that show..in which she appeared in every ep.
"I prefer fantasy over reality TV - like Fox News" - B.Streisand
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Sorry, disagree. It was a BIG DEAL indeed to have a MAJOR divorcee on
a sitcom in the still black-and-white world of TV in 1962. Yes, the show
may have Ball's name first (and, yes, I'm aware Vance left the show later,
but that's beside the point). Vance was an Emmy-winning star by the
early '60's and everyone - including Ball and CBS - knew it. She was no
longer the unknown stage actor hired by Arnaz in '51. In fact, Ball
flat out said in 1976 that she probably wouldn't have returned to TV
if Vance hadn't (finally) agreed to return with her. She had a huge
say in script ideas and (especially) her wardrobe. She was also not
shy about confronting Ball about line changes or having her quips cut
out. She was a tough cookie. And - other than billing - she is an equal
participant in the first few years of this series. Having "Vivian"
bad-mouth her ex, and raising a boy without a father, and openly
dating several men WAS groundbreaking.
While I'm not a huge fan of "The Lucy Show" by any means (it comes
nowhere near ILL), Vance's role was far more important to the series.
For its first two years, it was a show about TWO WOMEN struggling to
make ends meet. Virtually every scene and every situation revolves
around BOTH of them. ILL boasts the classic "Lucy Does a TV Commercial"
without Vance. This would've not happened on TLS.
A lot changed between 1962 and 1975: Three major assassinations, an
X-rated Best Picture Oscar ("Midnight Cowbody") and the entire hippie/
social/political scene. Look at the difference even between 1964 and
1966?? We don't just measure time by chronology. Massive change
can take place in three years, while things remain virtually the
same over a ten-year span.
Even if I agreed that "Fay" was such a "groundbreaking" sitcom because
the great Lee Grant's character was divorced, who would even remember???
The show is completely forgotten. TLS, for all it's flaws, is not.
As for York, he missed shows due to illness, not because the show got
along well without him. The non-Darrin episodes of this series are
its worst.
different question: is Lee Grant funny?
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Brilliantly so. All one has to do is catch her Ocar-nominated performance
in Hal Ashy's "The Landlord." She is one of the most versatile, gifted
actors who ever stepped in front a camera. And "Fay" was a critics'
darling, garnering excellent reviews, even though it didn't catch on with
the public.
well, let's take a more technical view of this.
If the ratings were low,and her show was canceled with even criteria for shows that were canceled, then was it her a place to complain about it? If other shows had even higher ratings(or the same) and were also canceled, then the cancellation cannot be taken that seriously/personally by her. That would mean that everybody would be compaining on the Tonight show that their show was unfairly cancelled.
I think the writers of The Lucy Show and Here's Lucy were carefully trying to avoid having Ball play a divorcee, because it might seem like a reference to Ball's real-life divorce from Desi Arnaz. In some ways, it is like she is still playing Lucy Ricardo. Viewers could think Ricky had died, not that Lucy would ever have divorced Ricky. I don't think any of Lucy's dead husbands in the subsequent sitcoms post-Desi, were ever mentioned by first name. Certainly her children on The Lucy Show never mentioned their dad by name, and neither did her kids on Here's Lucy, which is ironic because they were played by her real-life children with Arnaz.
And going back to divorcees on sitcoms, do you think there was a concern in the 60s that a divorced woman on TV might be seen as a lesbian-- that Lucy and Viv living together were more than just roommates? A point was made to show separate bedrooms and to have a parade of boyfriends for both ladies.
The producers of MTM probably thought they needed to explain why a 30-year-old woman was unmarried. So they thought it would be logical for her to be divorced. But because society was so much more judgmental about divorced people in 1970, the producers eventually realized that having Mary be divorced would quite possibly put her character in a bad light. So her backstory became that she had dumped her boyfriend and moved away because he didn't want to marry her.
shareI believe having Vivian be divorced on The Lucy Show was unintentionally groundbreaking. I think that, just as on I Love Lucy, executive producer Lucille Ball wanted second-banana Viv to be portrayed in a worse light than the character of Lucy. So Lucy was the respectable widow whose late husband had left her a nice house and enough money to live on for the rest of her life, and Viv was the unfortunate divorcee who became Lucy's tenant and who had to badger her hated ex-husband to send her alimony checks.
Lucille Ball's shows were never groundbreaking as far as social issues. In fact, she hated shows such as Norman Lear's All in the Family. So I don't think Viv's divorce was meant as a progressive statement. In I Love Lucy, Vivian's Ethel Mertz was always secondary to Lucy in every way. Ethel was slightly overweight, somewhat frumpy, and unhappily married to an unattractive much-older cheapskate. Also, Ethel was supposed to be about ten years older than Lucy, even though in real life the age gap was only two years. All these characteristics were put in place to make Lucy's character and life look much better by comparison. And I believe this same practice carried through to The Lucy Show.
Excellent post, hoosier! I still stand by my assessment that RHODA was the second sitcom to have a divorced female as the main character - the forgotten FAYE was really the first. It was a gamble for CBS, and slightly paid off.
"I prefer fantasy over reality TV - like Fox News" - B.Streisand
Of course, the creators of Rhoda didn't set out to make a series about a divorced woman. As you wrote in the thread "Harper on 'Rhoda's divorce'" (and as the viewers can sense from watching seasons 1 through 3), confusion and disagreement over what direction the show should go in are what caused Rhoda's abrupt divorce. So just as the divorced character of Vivian on The Lucy Show could be described as unintentionally groundbreaking, Rhoda unintentionally became a show centered around a divorced woman. And according to the timeline you laid out in "Harper on 'Rhoda's divorce,'" producers of Rhoda made this decision early in season 2--a few months before One Day at a Time had even premiered. So they couldn't have been influenced or encouraged by the success of ODaaT--initially, anyway. Perhaps they were later on.
share'I think that, just as on I Love Lucy, executive producer Lucille Ball wanted second-banana Viv to be portrayed in a worse light than the character of Lucy'
'And I believe this same practice carried through to The Lucy Show'
------------------------------
Isn't that reading into it somewhat? Maybe the writers wrote Viv as divorced. By this stage,there was no reason for Ball to downplay Vance,nor have an age difference--and Ethel Mertz was written to be the character she was
Also, there are so many series that come and go; the successes are the minority. There could had been other shows with divorced females, but we just don't recall those shows.
Isn't that reading into it somewhat? Maybe the writers wrote Viv as divorced. By this stage,there was no reason for Ball to downplay Vance,nor have an age difference--and Ethel Mertz was written to be the character she was
Also, there are so many series that come and go; the successes are the minority. There could had been other shows with divorced females, but we just don't recall those shows.
I disagree on this one. I think hoosierfan is correct. Back then, ever little detail was looked at and pondered, everything had a meaning and a reason (even the set decorations) to stay true to the characters and the sitcom itself. I don't think writing Viv as divorced was a matter taken lightly.
Also, if there were other divorced females on TV shows back then, we would have known. It was a 'big deal' back then...right up until the 80s. It's like the introduction of the first gay male character in the 70s, on "Soap". There was 'Uncle Arthur' on BEWITCHED before that, but he was never labeled gay...so we don't know for sure.
"I prefer fantasy over reality TV - like Fox News" - B.Streisand
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pvd,
My main point was that I don't think Ball had a motive to downplay Vivian(in looks or age) at this stage in their careers with The Lucy Show--and that the character of Ethel Mertz was supposed to be 10 yrs older and frumpier as written.
Asyou may know, when Ball went to see Vance in a play as a form of audition, she felt Vance was not right for the role and said "she doesn't look/seem like a landlady to me". Desi had the insticts to see it. Ball has since admitted she's not good at casting.
An article from the Los Angeles Times from February 4, 1998 explains a bit about the origins of The Lucy Show. It was based on the autobiographical book Life Without George by Irene Kampen:
"After marriage and motherhood, [Kampen] settled into the 1950s domestic life in Ridgefield, Conn. She divorced and invited another divorcee with a young son to move in with her and her daughter and wrote a book about her experiences, 'Life Without George.' When the 1961 book came to the attention of 'I Love Lucy' producers, stars Lucille Ball and Desi Arnaz had divorced and 'Lucy' wanted a new solo show. So the book sparked 'The Lucy Show,' which began in 1962."
And here's a quote from the book Desilu about the origins of The Lucy Show:
"Initially, Ball and Vance were to portray divorcees, the roles soon rewritten as a pair of widows."
Unfortunately, Desilu doesn't say who decided to make Lucy a widow and Viv divorced, or why. The producers could have stuck with the book's premise and made both women divorced. Or they could have made them both widows. But they didn't. And you have to wonder why the women were assigned their respective marital status. I think it's clear that, in 1962, most people would be far more sympathetic to a widow than to a divorcee. So Lucy was chosen to take the more socially acceptable role.
When you think about the number of lead female characters who were 'widowed' in a television comedy in the 60s and 70s:
Lucy Carmichael - "The Lucy Show"
Lucy Carter - "Here's Lucy"
Shirley Partridge - "The Partridge Family"
Carol Brady - "The Brady Bunch" (she was widowed when she met Mike Brady)
Julia Baker - "Julia"
Maude Findlay - "Maude" (several times widowed before she married 'Walter')
Florida Evans - "Good Times" (actor John Amos left, so they made her widowed, not divorced)
Phyllis Lindstrom - "Phyllis"
Alice Hyatt - "Alice"
Divorced lead female characters (1975/76):
Fay Stewart - "Fay"
Rhoda Morgenstrn - "Rhoda"
Ann Romano - "One Day at a Time"
"I prefer fantasy over reality TV - like Fox News" - B.Streisand
The number of widowed male lead characters in TV history is too large to know exactly, but it's in the dozens.
Oscar and Felix: TV's first divorced men?
Actually, Carol Tyler Martin Brady's marital status was never mentioned. Mike WAS a widower, and in fact, had the only picture of a former spouse. I read somewhere that Florence Henderson said that Carol was originally going to be divorced, but when push came to shove, nothing about her first marriage was mentioned. Except for her married name.
shareI just realized this thread was started exactly one year ago today!
"I prefer fantasy over reality TV - like Fox News" - B.Streisand
Divorce was taboo on TV as late the early 1970s. Mary Richards was initially supposed to be a divorcee, but the network thought viewers would assume Mary had divorced Rob Petrie. So she was rewritten as a single gal on the verge of spinsterhood -- at 30!
And remember, TV was full of widowers too -- Andy Griffith Show, My Three Sons, Courtship of Eddie's Father, etc.
Apologies to PVD and Gbennett - I've just re-read this entire thread and you're way beyond my obvious comments about divorce taboos. I shouldn't have jumped to the most recent page!
This reminds of what Suzanne Somers says in her 1st book,when she was an unknown and about to move into her $300 apt; the landlady told at the last minute that she wasn't comfortable with a divorcee as a tenant.
'once you brought a kid into the mix, the story lines become limited'
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yeah,boring.
That would come later with VALERIE.
well, let's take a more technical view of this.
If the ratings were low,and her show was canceled with even criteria for shows that were canceled, then was it her a place to complain about it? If other shows had even higher ratings(or the same) and were also canceled, then the cancellation cannot be taken that seriously/personally by her. That would mean that everybody would be compaining on the Tonight show that their show was unfairly cancelled.
Grant's show was different, though, and she had every right to complain and take that complaint public (IMO).
As I mentioned earlier, NBC was in want of a sitcom with a female lead, trying to woo some of the success away from CBS which had launched "MTM", "Rhoda", "Maude" and now "Phyllis" on the way. The network hesitantly picked up the Grant show, since Grant was a divorcee in the lead - something new and groundbreaking for sitcom TV. (The show was written by Susan Harris, who would have greater success a few years later with a string of hit sitcoms).
The show was a critical hit, but NBC did not give it the 'respect' it deserved, and it couldn't establish an audience. As pointed out earlier, in it's short run of eight weeks, the show was shifted around he schedule, due to so many interruptions in the schedule by NBC. As Grant had said, they were nervous about the set-up and did not want to give it a chance to build it's audience (something we see all too regularly with every network these days!).
I think if the show stayed in it's originally scheduled Thursday night slot, and ran for eight weeks straight with no interruptions, and fell in the ratings on it's own, then NO she should not have ranted to Johnny Carson. But that didn't happen - NBC made it fail (or at least ahad a very heavy hand in making it fail).
Keep in mind, NBC would order another sitcom based around a single mom..."Shirley" starring Shirley Jones (1979-80). Yep, she was a widow in that show as well (just like on ABC's "The Partridge Family" from 1969-74).
"I prefer fantasy over reality TV - like Fox News" - B.Streisand
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I don't know why they even bother producing a show if the network is not going to give it a chance
I understand about not allowing a show find an audience,but my question is whether other shows suffered the same type of fate that FAY did, which might be impossible for us to track down. If the audience was watching, why would NBC be nervous about the set-up? Unless,NBC was shuffling it to find a good place to sandwich it between 2 other shows
How do we know that FAY would not have met the same fate,whether she was married,widowed or single?
Before I mention this,are you aware of the incident with The Bionic Woman?
Don't forget back then, the three networks were trying to please the FCC with "Family Hour" which ran each night from 8 - 9. Once Rhoda was scheduled in the 8PM slot on Monday nights (originally from 9:30 on Mondays) it had to fit into 'Family Hour' (as did 'Phyllis', which aired at 8:30).
'Fay' was in the 9:30 slot in the beginning. I don't know if they ever moved it into the family hour.
"I prefer fantasy over reality TV - like Fox News" - B.Streisand
I recall seeing an episode of "Fay" when I was younger.
I didn't get it then but never forgot the name of the show.
In the 1980s I read in a book about sitcoms that it had big censor issues about certain plot points or storylines?
Anyhow,on the subject ofthe thread. I don;t see how Rhoda being single is "funnier". She's the same person single or married. I know people change some when they do get married but Rhoda (from the few I've seen on ME TV,doesn;t seem any different than on MTM.
Divorcing them (to me) sounds like a HUGE miscalculation. ...but,even if they'd stayed married,the show would have ended by 1979 anyway. Mary's was already
gone,so this would have been done soon too.
MAN! One dream's come true,ready for another.
(MR.) happipuppi13 *arf,man!*!
I recall Harper once said (in early 1979) that she was contracted for 'Rhoda' through the 1978-79 season, but she was relieved when the show was cancelled in December, 1978 because she was itching to do something else.
Since the plan was to 'spin-off' "Brenda" in February/March of 1979, who would be left in the cast if it did survive until the end of the season? "Ma", "Pop", and "Jack Doyle"? I know they introduced 'Tina' to the cast right before cancellation (and she was very funny - we first meet her the season before in Gary's store), but was she strong enough to replace 'Brenda'?
"I prefer fantasy over reality TV - like Fox News" - B.Streisand
'Mary's was already
gone,so this would have been done soon too.'
-------------------
I don't see the correlation there, but agree that Rhoda was funny with or without being married.
Maybe on paper,the writers were coming up with all these funny plot elements for a single woman, but it wasn't excecuted.
One thing we're overlooking: what were the ratings from the 1st(single)season to the 2nd(married)season?
As they say, if it ain't broke ,don't fix it.
'Mary's was already
gone,so this would have been done soon too.'
-------------------
I don't see the correlation there, but agree that Rhoda was funny with or without being married.
Maybe on paper,the writers were coming up with all these funny plot elements for a single woman, but it wasn't executed.(even the 1st apt was more attractive)
One thing we're overlooking: what were the ratings from the 1st(single)season to the 2nd(married)season?
As they say, if it ain't broke ,don't fix it.
Season 1 (Mondays, 9:30) - #6.
Season 2 (Mondays, 8:00) - #7.
Season 3 (Mondays, 8:00 from Sept- Dec; Sundays 8:00 starting in Jan. '77 ) - #32.*
Season 4 (Sundays, 8:00) - #25
Season 5 (Saturdays, 8:00) - #43
*CBS switches the nights in mid-season, after the show starts to fall the first few weeks into Rhoda's separation. The show bounces back to the top 25 in S4.
"I prefer fantasy over reality TV - like Fox News" - B.Streisand
season #5?
"I've been sick"
~~lucy