MovieChat Forums > Rhoda (1974) Discussion > Joe Gerard: One of the Least Sympathetic...

Joe Gerard: One of the Least Sympathetic Characters Ever!

posted 11 years ago by horizonbeach
51 replies | jump to latest

Even now, all these years later, I just cannot like Joe. I didn't like him at the beginning, and I didn't like him during the separation and divorce episodes. Here's my synopsis of Joe:

He was recently divorced from a beautiful blonde (played by Joan Van Ark) and he had gone on somewhat of a female binge after his divorce, which was mentioned in the episode where one of his old girlfriends from his post-divorce days (also a gorgeous, skinny blonde) stopped by the apartment, not realizing that he was now married, and let it be known that she was intimately familiar with Joe and his apartment. Don't get me wrong, Rhoda was beautiful too, she just looked nothing like the other women that Joe was attracted to, which was a red flag, since there was an established pattern there. Post-Rhoda, he went after his neighbor Jan, portrayed by Wendy Schaal, who was, yep, another skinny blonde.

He married Rhoda after a whirlwind romance, even though he later revealed that he really didn't want to get married but felt like he had to because Rhoda wouldn't live with him, and since every other woman remotely linked with him both pre- and post-Rhoda were skinny blondes, he even married someone who wasn't really his type, because...she wouldn't move in with him unless they were married??? Why not find someone else to shack up with who didn't require marriage so that he wouldn't end up breaking her heart and putting her through a divorce?

He was extremely hard on Rhoda at the beginning of season 3, and seemed to blame the entire separation on her, even though he was the one who said he wasn't "as happy as I want to be" and obviously wanted to date other people. His attitude seemed to be that Rhoda existed to make him happy, with no concern for her happiness at all.

When Rhoda was heartbroken and hoping for reconciliation, he strung her along and implied at times that they might get back together, even though he had moved out and clearly had no interest in living with her again as a married couple.

He stopped going to the marriage counselor without telling Rhoda, and she kept going, assuming that Joe cared as much as she did about working things out.

Joe also had a rather gruff personality and tended to get angry easily. He was selfish and rude at times.

Overall, I just never liked the character of Joe Gerard. Rhoda deserved so much better!

What do you think? Did you like Joe?

[–] SimplemindedSociety 11 years ago

The main problem is that Groh was not meant for a sitcom. You can't play anger like actual anger. Another actor may have made the same material funny.

Rhoda's problem was latching on him too long. Let him go if he wants to go that badly. You should not have to persuade somebody to be your spouse.

And what's interesting about Joan Van Ark is that she is only prettier in medium shots. I never found her very beautiful--but she ACTED the role perfectly.
Wendy Schael is Harper's real life stepdaughter.

[–] pvd295 11 years ago

Don't forget the lovely and under-ated actress Pamela Bellwood also played one of his ex girlfriends as well. Bellwood later joined the original cast of DYNASTY (1981) as Clauida Blaisdale.

"I prefer fantasy over reality TV - like Fox News" - B.Streisand

[–] bistritapcv (1850) 4 years ago

Valerie was married to the guy with the feet, right?

[–] amyghost 11 years ago

Re-watching the show, I don't find myself disliking Joe. But it's plain enough that he's not really in love with Rhoda, never has been. He's clearly intrigued by her because she's so different--both physically and in her feisty attitude--to the skinny blonde pampered princesses he's been involved with and married to. But that isn't enough to make for a lasting bond.

I think it was correct though, for the series creators to have Rhoda married off to Joe quickly. That's how it would happen in real life. Although Rhoda's become more assertive and in control of her life by the time she meets him, a real-world Rhoda would still have enough residual anxieties left to believe a man like Joe wouldn't stick around unless he was 'permanently' anchored. Living together wouldn't constitute security enough for her (along with the underlying moral qualms about 'living in sin' that a lot of people still felt at that time).

But of course, the real feelings of commitment haven't had time to develop, and all of the problems start bubbling to the surface shortly after the honeymoon period wears off--and there's nothing durable there to help them through it. Joe has never been certain about the whole thing, and once the problems arise, he starts thinking about getting out. Rhoda panics because she senses Joe's ties to her aren't as deep as she wanted to believe. And so the marriage breaks up.

I can't really fault Joe in particular for that, except maybe for being less honest with Rhoda about his essential feelings towards her than he might have been. And even that would have been because he's a basically decent guy who doesn't want to hurt her, and maybe even thinks they can work all of this out after they've been together for a while.

[–] horizonbeach 11 years ago

I agree with your observations. I also think that if the writers had been able to make the marriage work in terms of being funny and fresh, they probably would have written Joe to be a good guy who is totally committed to Rhoda and none of his uncertainty and eventual abandonment would have ever been written into the show.

I realize that they chose David Groh because he was a good actor and had the perfect "macho guy of the mid-'70s" look that they wanted, but I agree, he certainly was not cut out for comedy, especially in the parameters of a sitcom. He would have been much better as a dramatic film actor, say, like Tommy Lee Jones, or Al Pacino, IMHO. Judd Hirsch would have been better, although not as traditionally handsome as Groh, which seemed to be important to the producers.

BTW, there are still a lot of people who don't feel that living together outside of marriage is right, I don't think that is something that was just of that era. Just because something becomes common does not make it right. People are fallible. Not arguing, just sayin'...

[–] SimplemindedSociety 11 years ago

''they probably would have written Joe to be a good guy who is totally committed to Rhoda'
-----------------------------
forgive my sarcasm, but if it wasn't for the writers..he would be.

Anyway, he's a good enough guy, but likely not marriage material with any women,the same as some women are not for their own reasons.

However, I thought Joan Van Ark's character seemed feisty ,and I cringed how Rhoda acted so awkward around her. I don't know if that was characteristic of her, or just a plot device for this episode.

[–] amyghost 11 years ago

BTW, there are still a lot of people who don't feel that living together outside of marriage is right, I don't think that is something that was just of that era. Just because something becomes common does not make it right. People are fallible. Not arguing, just sayin'...

Oh, that's true enough, I know. I was just speaking from the perspective of someone who was a teenager at that time (growing up a transplantee to the Old South, no less), and I can recall that in that era the idea of living 'without benefit of clergy' generated a pretty heavy degree of opprobrium still, Sexual Revolution be damned. People are more relaxed about it today than they were in the early Seventies and it is much more commonplace, but I know it's still a troublesome idea for many even now.

[–] SimplemindedSociety 11 years ago

much less having a child without marriage, which was taboo. Now, it's seen as commonplace. When Patty DUke had such in 1970,the tabloids were hot off the presses about it.

[–] amyghost 11 years ago

Very true. Heck, when I was a kid even getting divorced still had something of a taint about it. Nowadays it seems people pretty much expect most marriages to end that way.

[–] pvd295 11 years ago

BTW, there are still a lot of people who don't feel that living together outside of marriage is right, I don't think that is something that was just of that era. Just because something becomes common does not make it right. People are fallible. Not arguing, just sayin'...

Don't forget - in Rhoda's second season (1975-76) the television industry was part of something called the Family Hour, which each network (we only had three back then) participated. It was supposed to highlight family entertainment in that hour ...a couple living together and not married would never be permitted by CBS (and Harper later revealed being a divorced woman went against the grain as well).

That in itself was the downfall of her marriage (according to Harper) - the writers had trouble writing for a married couple in the 'Family Hour', and making it entertaining and humorous with different G-Rated topics.

"I prefer fantasy over reality TV - like Fox News" - B.Streisand

[–] amyghost 11 years ago

I recall Family Viewing Hour very well; heaven knows it was the butt of enough jokes in its time. These days with what we're seeing onscreen though, I'm actually beginning to wonder if it was such a bad idea. Lord knows I'd cringe at watching some of the stuff you see on the tube these days with a child present in the room, and I'm not much of a prude.

And also, keeping in character--Rhoda was a nice Jewish girl, brought up in a nice Jewish home by, yes, nice Jewish parents. Living together with a man was something that she just wouldn't have done. Rhoda may have been unconventional, but she wasn't a total rebel. It would have gone utterly against the grain for her to displease her folks in that way.

[–] SimplemindedSociety 11 years ago

'Lord knows I'd cringe at watching some of the stuff you see on the tube these days with a child present in the room, and I'm not much of a prude.'

--------------------
lol
You need to visit the 'Friday the 13th' and 'Exorcist' board where they don't understand why I don't think children should be watching. They have no idea of the difference.

Rhoda has a line:
"What, JUST live togther?"
Joe asks why her to omit the "just" because of the negative tone. Rhoda says the line again, and then admits "I need the "just".

[–] pvd295 11 years ago

And also, keeping in character--Rhoda was a nice Jewish girl, brought up in a nice Jewish home by, yes, nice Jewish parents. Living together with a man was something that she just wouldn't have done. Rhoda may have been unconventional, but she wasn't a total rebel. It would have gone utterly against the grain for her to displease her folks in that way.

Believe it or not, that was another BIG change in Rhoda, once she was spun-off into her own series (Harper wrote about this in her book). For some reason (never fully explained), the writers downplayed her being Jewish - as a matter of fact, I believe she said once she got married, they never mentioned her being Jewish or 'Jewish' family. It was 'understood' by viewers, but never mentioned. It is mentioned that Joe is NOT Jewish (when he meets her parents), and later in that season they actually celebrate Christmas...but her religion is never mentioned as much as it was on MTM.

"I prefer fantasy over reality TV - like Fox News" - B.Streisand

[–] amyghost 11 years ago

Thanks for pointing that out. I'm part Jewish myself, and have always found some interest in the way Jews are portrayed in the media...going from something of a 'Jewish Explosion' in media characterizations in the early Seventies, by the time of 'Rhoda' it had already begun to taper off a bit, but was still often used as something of a device on a fair number of shows (mostly sitcoms); another favorite comedy of mine Barney Miller was always notable to me in that, even though the title character is Jewish--as well as a number of the walk-ons--it's mentioned very rarely, just taken as a matter of course, and only seldom made note of in any of the humour.

I think by this time Jewishness had started to become such a part of the mainstream middle-American social consciousness that it wasn't felt as an attribute that had to be made a big deal of anymore, or at least not very often. An interfaith marriage such as Joe and Rhoda's was no longer seen as something faintly 'shocking' (recall the old Bridget Loves Bernie series anyone?)

[–] amyghost 11 years ago

You need to visit the 'Friday the 13th' and 'Exorcist' board where they don't understand why I don't think children should be watching. They have no idea of the difference.

...reminds me of a story a friend of mine told me once--he'd taken a part time Christmas job at a major chain toy store and had, on more than one occasion, parents coming up to the register buying the video game 'Grand Theft Auto'; not for themselves, but for their kids (in one instance, the kid was about six years old). He said he'd try to politely explain to the purchaser that this was a game with very heavy adult content and definitely not suitable for youngsters, only to get rudely rebuffed, ignored, or in one case, told to "mind his own *beep* business". That response, btw, came from the mother of the six-year-old.

I can thoroughly believe the responses you'd be getting to your comments on those boards! Again, I don't consider myself very puritanical (and pretty liberal), but it honestly stuns me what many parents will happily allow their pre-adolescent offspring to be exposed to these days.

[–] SimplemindedSociety 11 years ago

And their children will grow up to be as rude/ill-mannered as them just like the parents before them,and so on..

[–] pvd295 11 years ago

As for Rhoda being Jewish, I remember there was a MAD Magazine satire of the show in 1975 (I still have it - I used to collect all the MAD Magazines at the time...another icon of the past). Anyhow, in the satire, there is one 'panel' in which Brenda tells Rhoda (paraphrasing): "You've really changed in the past season - you used to be funny". Rhoda responds, "I know. I even used to be Jewish."

"I prefer fantasy over reality TV - like Fox News" - B.Streisand

[–] amyghost 11 years ago

...good one!

I loved Mad Magazine. Grew up on its humour (which was heavily Jewish in its origins--much of the creative staff were Jews--as was the founder, and Yiddish humour profoundly permeated the magazine).

And interestingly, it was some time before I found out that neither Valerie Harper nor Nancy Walker were actually Jewish IRL. Harold Gould and Julie Kavner were. Harper and Walker definitely played it convincingly!

[–] amyghost 11 years ago

And their children will grow up to be as rude/ill-mannered as them just like the parents before them,and so on..

Boy, don't you know it...

[–] pvd295 11 years ago

And interestingly, it was some time before I found out that neither Valerie Harper nor Nancy Walker were actually Jewish IRL. Harold Gould and Julie Kavner were. Harper and Walker definitely played it convincingly!

So was Ron Silver, who played Gary Levy and Beverly Sanders who played her best friend Suzie.

So even though Harper and Walker weren't, the rest of the cast was - I guess the tried to be as authentic as possible. (They then introduce Sally Gallagher and Jack Doyle to drive home the tough Irish New Yawkah stereotype home).

As for MAD MAGAZINE - very Jewish indeed. I loved all the spoofs they did on Striesand and her movies as well - gut crunching funny - up until "Yentl" (they called it 'Mentl').

"I prefer fantasy over reality TV - like Fox News" - B.Streisand

[–] amyghost 11 years ago

Ron Silver, definitely. I never knew Sanders was until you mentioned it, and Ray Buktenica (Benny) I've never been able to find much information on.

Those old MAD parodies were the best. And the funny part was, you knew a film or television show had to be good to get their treatment--they never (or very seldom) parodied the mediocre stuff, unless it was something so ridiculous as to be irresistible.

[–] SimplemindedSociety 11 years ago

'Beverly Sanders'
-------------------
looks like Streisand

[–] xdayton 11 years ago

And of course, Mary Tyler Moore was/is Jewish, and played the ultimate WASP.

As for Jewishness being accept on TV at the time, keep in mind that as late as the 1990s, when "Seinfeld" came along, the network demanded that George Costanza and Elaine Benes (both of whom had originally been written as Jewish, having been based on Larry David and Carol Leifer) be changed to Italian and WASP, respectively. NBC didn't want the show to be "too Jewish." Even Jerry only mentions it once or twice during the entire run (he makes a reference to Israel at some point, but that's about it).

Oddly, the Costanza family was changed in name only -- they kept all the essentially Jewish traits that they'd originally been given. Mrs. Costanza, in particular, was the stereotypical Jewish mother from Long Island.

[–] pvd295 11 years ago

MTM is Jewish? I never heard that.

"I prefer fantasy over reality TV - like Fox News" - B.Streisand

[–] pjpurple-1 11 years ago

The welfare of all the people has always been the alibi of tyrants. Albert Camus

That's probably because she isn't! MTM was raised Catholic. Maybe people are confused because in her private life she is Mrs. Robert Levine. I think her husband is Jewish.

As for David Groh's portrayal of Joe, SimplemindedSociety hit that particular nail on the head. The actor wasn't meant for comedy. Not every actor is. What's that saying? Dying is easy, comedy is hard.

Just before Rhoda premiered I read a review that said Joe was Rhoda's "perfect comedy foil". So I couldn't wait to see him. The reviewer was wrong. I started to dislike the character or at least feel uneasy about him when Mary came to New York for the wedding. They were in Brenda's apartment waiting for Joe. Rhoda was so excited and happy. She couldn't wait for Mary to meet him.

And then...Joe stormed in ranting and raving. He was very angry about something and it wasn't funny. Jackie Gleason was always hilarious when he was angry and the audience laughed. In this instance it was an upsetting moment. Rhoda was so embarrassed and Mary was really uneasy. I thought "You've got a very angry fella there Rhoda. Why are you in such a hurry to marry him.?"

He was also scary the time when some workman was in their apartment. The guy sort of hit on Rhoda and Joe came out of the bedroom. He sounded menacing when he said that the man better be joking. In contrast, Jackie Gleason's Ralph Kramden was so funny when he was jealous. He threw several men out of the apartment including Alice's boss who thought Alice was single and wanted to date her.

David Groh was miscast. He seemed to be doing heavy drama when the rest of the cast was doing light comedy.

It's probably unfair to compare him to a comedy genius like Jackie Gleason who could also do drama (The Hustler). Not all actors can do both. James Woods can. The gorgeous Kevin Bacon can play hero, villain or comedy. Joe Pesci is a genius at both (Casino and Goodfellas and My Cousin Vinny).

I thought David Groh was more suited to play the heavy. That was made apparent when a few years later he was on General Hospital. He played D.L. Brock, the husband of Bobbi Spencer. He was very abusive. He gave a chilling performance in that role. He was much more convincing as that type of character.

[–] Catdubh 10 years ago

Joe is a jackass! Rhoda, whose personality is a lot less "rough" than it was when she played Rhoda on the MTM show, is a very likable character, and IMHO, "settled" for Joe. She was 33, unmarried, and where she came from and the era, this was reaching the age of an "old maid". She could have done a ton better than Jackass, Joe.

Jack's not dead! Jack would never die without telling me, first!

[–] 10 years ago

[deleted]

[–] sylvia67 10 years ago

I think your evaluation of joe is pretty accurate... I always thought it would have been better if they had done this: Have Brenda and Benny be the ones who go married instead, they were cute together and they clicked,would have been a natural progression. Have Rhoda stay single and date a variety of men like she did in the show when her and Joe broke up. Have her date Joe and others and THEN see who she ended up with if anyone....

[–] louiseculmer 10 years ago

I felt sorry for Brenda marrying Benny, he was such a drip. No sex appeal at all.

[–] vada-sultenfuss 10 years ago

I'm only up to the first season of the show so far, but I agree that Rhoda deserved so much better. He is always angry and arguing about something, while it seems that Rhoda does absolutely everything to please him, she even says she'll quit her job if he wants her to. She lost a lot of her personality and spunk and independence when she hooked up with Joe. I don't feel the Rhoda we got to know on Mary Tyler Moore would ever put up with this much crap. Sure, she was always desperate for love, but she was an independent strong-willed woman with a great personality who wouldn't put up with this much bratty behaviour from a man. Already looking forward to the post-divorce episodes.

[–] pvd295 10 years ago

I have a feeling his being 'angry and argumentative' was supposed to make him more masculine and sexy, not necessarily likable. Just a thought.

I prefer fantasy over reality TV - like Fox News. - B.Streisand

[–] amyghost 10 years ago

I think there's something to that. Rhoda was supposed to be such a liberated woman, that the producers likely felt they had to pair her off to some uber-masculine type so that her 'liberatedness' wouldn't seem way over the top to the contemporary audience. Television already had one Maude Findlay, and it might have been assumed that two highly assertive female types on the same network might've been two too many.

[–] pvd295 10 years ago

Exactly! They didn't want/need another MAUDE with a weasley husband like Walter.

An uber-masculine-hetero guy like Joe kind of softened the liberated Rhoda in the mid-70s. Sure, Groh was sexy indeed (one of my first gay crushes on TV) in that 70s concept of masculine sexiness. Making him a but rough and gruff only added to it.

I prefer fantasy over reality TV - like Fox News. - B.Streisand

[–] vada-sultenfuss 10 years ago

You both have good points, I can absolutely see where that makes sense. I guess I tend to forget the whole attitude towards a liberated and strong-willed woman in a TV-marriage was still very new and frowned upon by some. I also can understand where they thought his attitude might make him more sexy. To me though, Joe so far seems quite insecure and whiny. And maybe a little bland for Rhoda. I always pictured her with someone funnier.

[–] amyghost 10 years ago

That may have been his biggest weakness as a character. Groh wasn't totally incapable of doing comedy, but it was clearly not his natural forte. Harper, on the other hand, was a natural comedienne of a very high order and probably inadvertently made Groh appear even more humorless by contrast.

It would have been a delicate balancing act of casting a stronger comic actor in the role who wouldn't have overshadowed Harper, but who could have been more of a mate for her in that department--but the decision was made to go with the 'sexier' but less comedically gifted Groh instead, and the show suffered for it.

[–] pvd295 10 years ago

Don't forget - Judd Hirsch was the original choice to play 'Joe' in 1974, but by the time the network came around with an offer to him, he was already committed to doing a Broadway play - and had to turn them down. Groh was the second choice (or maybe even somewhere else on the list?)

Groh was a sexy guy and the typical 70s actor - I think CBS should have saved him for a 'detective story' or 'cop drama'. He was miscast for comedy.

I prefer fantasy over reality TV - like Fox News. - B.Streisand

[–] amyghost 10 years ago

I think there's no doubt he'd have flourished more in a dramatic series. I could easily have pictured him in some 'detective genre' show. I've never blamed the failure of Joe as a character entirely on Groh--I think he was in large part the victim of miscasting, a not unusual fate in that profession.

[–] InherentlyYours 9 years ago

I didn't see Rhoda watered down after marrying. She was still feisty and spunky with her guest stars, regular cast actors, and with Joe.

[–] Catdubh 10 years ago

while it seems that Rhoda does absolutely everything to please him, she even says she'll quit her job if he wants her to. She lost a lot of her personality and spunk and independence when she hooked up with Joe.
Very true. I loved her on MTM, and she was toned down a bit before marrying Joe but still had her quick, flip wit about her. After marrying Joe, she morphs into this Wallflower of a woman who will do anything to please this unreasonable, extremely unhappy, temper tantrum throwing, jerk. Joe blows up in almost every episode; he's never moved past his terrible twos. Rhoda really could have done 10 times better but she settled for Joe.

Jack's not dead! Jack would never die without telling me, first!

[–] SarahKatherine247 10 years ago

Hindsight is 20/20, but they should've had Rhoda and Joe date a bit first, then break up, then she wants him back, then they date, then finally they marry. Yes, I took a bit of this from Friends. Like I said, hindsight is 20/20.

[–] Catdubh 10 years ago

Given Joe's self centered, and difficult personality, dating, break up, wanting him back, then marrying would have probably frustrated Rhoda's fans even more so, and it would not have made a difference or even added to the series. Rhoda was an in depth, pliable and likable character; Joe bugged the **** out of me. Sorry, I don't share but I do respect your opinion.

Jack's not dead! Jack would never die without telling me, first!

[–] louiseculmer 10 years ago

Joe was gorgeous. It was never the same after he left. It wasn't his fault the writers decided to turn him into the villain of the piece.

[–] rndgurl-971-654277 9 years ago

I always liked to think he regretted breaking up with Rhoda as time passed and he got older.. especially after he is "used" by one or more of his spoiled, blond princess types.. he would rememeber Rhoda with regret as the one who got away..........

[–] jayhn1111 9 years ago

But he had like a hundred chances and could've gotten her back any time he wanted to. She pined over him for over a year. Seemed like she was the type of woman he just wanted to see a couple of times a week and see her on his terms. Which is what it ended up being towards the end.

[–] jayhn1111 9 years ago

You're right it was not the same after he left. It was better. But the viewers spoke out and agreed with you. I'll never figure out why.

[–] rndgurl-971-654277 9 years ago

I thought the show was better somewhat after he left as well. Rhoda "found herself" again.. and she had a new job and new adventures..

[–] jayhn1111 9 years ago

Yeah for me it got kind of tiresome seeing Rhoda play the role of the insecure teenager scared to death of losing him all the time. More importantly I didn't think they were funny together either.

[–] rndgurl (130) 4 years ago

I feel that a better way to handle the Rhoda divorce storyline would have been to have Rhoda wanting a child, while Joe did not. That would have made sense, she was in her early 30s still childless, while he already had a 10 year old and may not have wanted any more children, a situation like that happened with a married couple i knew, she wanted more kids, he didnt.. they stayed together however.

[–] Who (5146) 4 years ago

That would have been better. Why did they break this couple up? Did the Joe actor have better projects offered? I never saw that actor ever again, so bad move if that was the case. I used to get him confused with the guy who played Carmine on Laverne & Shirley.

Did the producers always want Rhoda to be divorced. I read that Mary Richards on the MTM show was going to be a divorcee but they changed their mind. I couldn’t see that.

[–] rndgurl (130) 4 years ago

i read once they broke them up because they were having problems thinking up storylines for a married couple, they felt it would be easier to write for Rhoda as a single person.

[–] Who (5146) 4 years ago

The writers for Mad About You never had that problem. But they had a funny guy playing the husband.