So I just finished the movie and immediately came to IMDB looking for a discussion that can clear up some of my issues with the ending. There are a few posts on here, but not one that specifically discusses WHY Jeanne's character killed Paul and whether or not it works for the film.
I should start by saying there's probably no right or wrong answer, but I'm intested in everybody's thoughts.
After thinking about it for awhile, while everybody talks about how repulsive Paul is in this film, the real degenerate here is Jeanne. Clearly the idea of anonymous sex thrills her, and many people have said that they think it was the shattering of this anonymity (Paul telling her more about himself, his dead wife, etc.) that ruined the whole thing for her. While I think this is true, I think it's important to talk about the fact that SHE was the one who pushed breaking their rule in the first place!
SHE was the one who first told Paul she loved him, and basically stated that she didn't love her fiance but HIM. Were it not for this scene, I doubt that Paul would've felt the need to drop the charade and try at having a transparent relationship with her. Basically Jeanne strikes me as an immature child, well below her already young years, who changes her mind a million times a minute. We see a little bit of this trait even in her dealings with Tom, screaming in a subway that she's done with him one second and accepting his marriage proposal the next. Her behavior is so extreme that I would even argue she's mentally ill.
This is all not to say Paul didn't have mental issues of his own (rage displayed with the mother-in-law, aroused by humiliating others), but one has to keep in mind he was grieving. The main point of this post is to ask what everybody else thought and to say that, while some people have called Jeanne's murder of Paul justified, I don't see that at all. I think he was the one truly taken advantage of.
[and before you all call me a sexist pig, I'M A WOMAN SO SHUDDAP)
completely agree, i think the way it was written and presented on screen, is ment to trick you, you at first feel Paul is the creep, but ultimately it is Jeanne who is the one in the wrong. paul, although having traits of unhealthy sexual behavior (we all have our fantasies) was really the victim here. Jeanne striked me as sociopathic with bi-polar fits. which is already a recipe for hell.
In Paul's last scene near the end with her he rants how she would be able to start over. And she basically takes his advice.There is more to it so you have to watch it, he was gone from his hotel room when she tried to find himafter he did not show up for there sexual session. Basically he told her how to rid herself of her demons and to stare death in the face. She was giving herself a way out and relieving him of his emptiness at the same time. Although one could argue she went mad and after all was said and done she did not want anything more than what they had so when he wanted to become human she wanted to end it.
I just saw the ending last night on MGM and it seemed pretty simple to me, yes both are mentally troubled people but she had decided it was over, she didn't want to do this any longer yet he kept on, and on and pursued her everywhere. he would not let up and she being young and genuinely scared that he had gone over the edge and was beginning to become really scarey, she just shot him in a fit of emotion. could happen to anybody in this circumstance. maybe that's too simplistic a reading of it but I don't think so.
this is the kind of movie that you read new things into it every time you watch it. it was a product of it's time, and I simply love this time. new, experimental, french, atmospheric, sexy, existential, philosophical, just fantastic. thank god for spell check
I have to completely disagree that she was genuinely scared. Jeanne had just stated, what like the day before, that she would do anything for Paul, that she was desperately in love with him. She had gone to lengths to prove this to him. And all of the sudden she says it's over and walks away? Now we as the audience can understand a little why she is doing this, but any man would not. She owed Paul and explanation. What man if he loves a woman and she has claimed she loves him would accept a hurried it's over and let the girl walk away and never speak to her again? Nobody! They would want to know what is wrong, what has changed, did they do something, should they apologize for something . . . the questions are endless! People who love people don't end things like Jeanne ended things, any sane person would chase after her and want to talk. And that was all Paul was saying - "I want to talk to you."
Further, she has a gun in her hands. She hides it. Paul doesn't touch her, she lets him get close to her. Any person who is truly afraid would have showed the gun and pointed it and threatened to shoot, they wouldn't let the person walk up right next to them (and she had the gun in her hands the entire time he was in the apartment). A scared person shows their strength, they threaten, they do not look at you in the eyes and let you get close to them and shoot you at close range. Jeanne had a lot to lose - she had brought Paul to a place where he was emotionally invested, he knew where she lived. He could easily blow the lid on their affair and ruin her upcoming engagement. Plus, having to have the conversation with Paul as to why she wanted to end things would make her have to face her own heart and the realities of herself, which would usher her into adulthood, a place she refuses to go. She wanted Paul to go away permanently and without having to explain herself. That was going to be impossible considering where there relationship was at with the I love you's already being said. Killing him was an easy way out, it was purposeful. That is why she is practicing her lines at the end repeatedly as to what to say to the police. These are not the actions of a person acting out of fear at all. Shooting Paul couldn't just "happen to anybody." Some may have pulled the gun, others may have shouted they never loved them (which she never says) in order to break the connection and get Paul to understand that it is over and can't be fixed. Normal people would not do what Jeanne did - ever. And many normal people would have done what Paul did and followed her in disbelief and wanted to have a conversation. The murder is all on Jeanne and is not at all understandable in my opinion.
you know I totally agree with you about why he would chase her, wanting an explanation, or trying to simply get her back. I get that. But to say she planned the whole thing? maybe who really knows but remember he was a bit crazed and I dont' remember the whole movie now but didn't he slap her at one point? The part about her letting him get close to her, well maybe she wasn't scared enough until he got close to her, then panicked and shot him. Look at it this way, she's young, maybe bi polar, a bit nuts, she has this fling with him, she thinks she loves him, but she doesn't know herself really she's too young. so she suddenly decides to end it, she's fickle, she want's out of it, but he being a man, and older guy, suddenly realizes what he had and becomes obsessed. I have been obsessed before with a two different women who were both unstable and incredibly beautiful and changeable from not only day to day, but hour to hour. you never knew what they were going to do, or were really capable of if they got mad/scared/ etc so he pursues her, follows her, she begins to get nervous about this and so she gets a gun, then in the final scene he breaks in looking crazed, she's not sure what to do, he gets close to her, then being immature, fickle, a bit crazy, she panics and shoots him. her "rehearsing" her lines could simply be her own justification for what she just did, she is trying to convince herself why she shot him just now. he tried to rape me, he tried to rape me, etc. after all she was probably a bit crazy and could easily convince herself of that in order to justify to herself what she just did.
I found this, it's just somebodies opinion but it sort of supports my opinion
: "he started to scare her. when the relationship was solely a tryst outside of real life that no one knew about, the affair was exciting and surreal. his domineering and abusive behavior was erotic. the fact that he didn't want to know anything about her real life was part of the attraction.
BUT, when he started to talk about his life and tried to move the relationship into her real world, she reassessed his behavior. what was exciting became frightening when she looked at it in her own apartment. also, the more he talked, he sounded more obsessive and less mentally stable. following the death of his wife, he had used a tryst to cope, and now he was trying to use her as a girlfriend to cope. either way, she panicked."
and this from another source :
"Paul is ready to act out the final reconciliation scene of his imaginary Hollywood film. In a flourish of romantic hyperbole, he confesses his love: "You ran through Africa and Asia and Indonesia. Now I've found you. And I love you. I want to know your name." Paul's romantic comedy suddenly turns into tragedy. As the terrified, alienated Jeanne gives her name, she shoots and kills him."
I did this quick research not to argue the point, but because I was truly interested in what others think about it. it is an interesting question that was asked here.
But I don't believe she planned it as a murder
but on the other hand you could be exactly right. let's email the screenwriter and ask him. doesn't really matter though I think we both agree it's a modern classic. My favorite line is when she is naked in the bathroom and she says to him "your old!" and he says back something like "yah, and your going to be playing soccer with your tits in a few years". I know it's very crude but it made me laugh since I'm old now.
Well when I say planned, I mean that she knew what she was going to do the moment she got in her apartment and put her hand in the drawer on the gun. I don't think she "planned ahead" in the normal sense of premeditation, but I think she knew exactly what she was going to do the moment she got in the apartment, she was in a corner and had to deal with Paul and get him out of her life somehow, so she planned ahead momentarily due to the position she was put in. I honestly think that if Paul was willing to let her run off and was content with never speaking to her again the idea of killing him would never have entered her consciousness, it was a choice made in the moment out of self-protection, to protect her own illusions about herself and the fact of being found out about Paul, but not out of fear of Paul in my opinion.
As for Paul being crazed, I just watched this film for the first time (2x this week), and when he chases her he is imploring that he wants to talk and what is the matter with you type stuff - pretty normal in my opinion like we agreed. When he comes in the apartment he is so calm and unaware of what is about to happen, so at ease, even trying to be funny to take away all of Jeanne's seriousness. Paul is very relaxed for one of the first times in the film in my opinion, he hardly came off crazed to me. Plus Jeanne had in the past kind of pulled the I hate you (right before I love you) type of stuff in with childish petulance that was usually intended to provoke Paul to respond to her when he would distance himself and I think in a way he thought that her saying it is over and running was part of the game/dance they had been doing, which was for them foreplay. In just watching the movie I can say he never hit her - but he did do worse in the sense of raping her so to speak - but she pretty much let him and obviously didn't mind it because right after she is sitting in the apartment with a smile on her face wanting to listen to music with him. So what he does do "bad" to her she does seem to enjoy afterwards, like some women would, but he never actually physically strikes her in any sort of angry or dangerous way.
I understand the idea of not knowing what a guy would do if he is prone to violence - but that was never Paul outside of certain sexual acts of which Jeanne was a willing participant, and continued to come back for more. The most volatile thing about Paul was that he would yell suddenly and the things he asked Jeanne for sexually were kind of surprising and maybe even frightening, but he did ask for them and she complied. I don't why Jeanne would be scared of violence and actual physical/deathly harm from Paul to where she felt she had to kill him to save herself from harm, there was nothing he had done to instill that kind of fear. And again, if you are afraid of physical harm you pull our gun, maybe attempt to shoot the person in the leg, attempt to threaten them with the gun so maybe you don't have to shoot and they leave you alone. A person in fear for their life just does not act like Jeanne does, not at all. And in that moment, was Paul even hinting at violence? No, he was asking for her name, and telling her again like he had earlier that he loved her. from what we know of their relationship there is no reason for her to be afraid of physical violence from him, and even she was for some reason afraid for her life, a person afraid for their life does not act the way Jeanne does. If you are scared when a person stands next to you and says they love you, you would be scared of them standing across the room and coming towards you, it makes no sense that all of the sudden, when her hand had been holding a gun for awhile, that she then became afraid - and he had told her he loved her at the Tango place, the confession of love was not the first nor was it a surprise.
And she doesn't call the police. She doesn't even try to save him. She doesn't even have ANY emotion after she shoots him, which usually people do even if it is a threatening intruder, the adrenaline is so high that they emotionally lose it. She is quite composed - and she knows he didn't try to rape her! Asking her name? He had already made it clear he was done with the antics of the apartment and was ready for "love and all the rest of it." He had been treating her adoringly all afternoon not at all like he had treated her at the apartment - and even when Paul had once in a sense raped her - he had her do all of the things to put herself in the position to be ready for sexual contact, he never overpowered her in a way sexually in which she wasn't already complicit in what was about to happen.
As far as Paul becoming frightening after he wanted "love and all the rest of it" to Jeanne, I wonder if this person who made these statements you found even watched what happened! The more Jeanne gets to know Paul, the more she feels disgust. It is written all over her face the more he tells her about himself, her statements to him even show her disgust - she gets rather nasty towards him. Disgust, which she clearly feels, and saying mean things to Paul are not signs of being afraid. She doesn't get to know Paul and THEN becomes afraid of him, she gets to know him and realizes that the "dangerous" man who excites her sexually that she thought she was in love with because of his mysteriousness and the fact that she couldn't have him turns out to be just some average old man, an average old man without money to boot. The illusion of Paul being broken revealing him as just another balding old guy with a rather boring existence does NOT frighten her at all in my opinion.
I speak from experience as a person who has had purely sexual affairs, once with a man that was 48 when I was 21, and I did have a moment when the illusion of the guy wore off. When things started to get "real" and I ran away, literally I have up and left and ran out of an apartment building from a naked man that didn't know what the hell was wrong with me and how I turned on a dime. But I was young, and when the illusion couldn't be kept anymore and you can't help but start to see the real person and maybe move deeper into what is going on with the two of you, when I decided I didn't want it anymore it was always final, i wanted it to be over and done with immediately, in a claustrophobic I have to get of here now kind of way. And maybe I am transposing my own personal experience on Jeanne, but when she is running through the streets I felt like the feeling I have had in my life was being captured on film. I felt like Jeanne had gotten her taste of reality, didn't want Paul, and wanted the whole thing over and done with. It is more frightening as a woman when you think back on all that you have done and only have the acts tarnished and sordid because the man isn't what you thought he was, and I think this type of thing can really only happen when a person is young, you grow up and aren't so easily seduced by illusion.
I personally since I have some experience in these types of relationships felt Paul's "tragedy" started the moment he began opening up to Jeanne about himself and was no longer the tortured man but happy and ready for love. To me, since I felt similar emotions, the looks on Jeanne's face were obvious, and watching all the scenes at the Tango place were tragic, it was almost hard to watch they were so tragic. I didn't get that the tragedy came in suddenly at the end. You already knew that Paul was going to get gut punched by Jeanne and all of his optimism was going to be destroyed when he realizes that the woman who professed her love to him was just posturing, Paul was bound for another breakdown and hating women after the number Jeanne was going to do to him just by breaking his heart in my opinion. But what is so tragic about the last scene to me is how much he believed her, how much her "love" had brought him out of his hell, how he for the first time in his life (after Africa, Indonesia . . ) he felt he had truly found love. The whole point of the film for Bertolucci was to capture the look of the man in the Bacon painting, kind of like a wounded dog. And when Jeanne shoots him, in that moment Paul is that Bacon painting, he is utterly disillusioned and broken, just like Jeanne had thought she found love that when the illusion was shattered was more of nuisance to her, Paul when the illusion is shattered is literally killed by it, he had truly given his heart to her, though she obviously hadn't to him.
Thanks for the response, nice to see another person who finds such complexity in this movie, and I loved the bathroom scene! "Before you go (to the grave) wash my feet." Classic.
And I know I just went off but I have to add one thing. Just from our life experience, if Jeanne was really afraid why didn't she yell out into the hallway that she had a gun? Why didn't she yell she was calling the police? She goes completely silent, let's him walk in the house without even statements to the effect of I want you to leave or something, she stops yelling at him completely. She holds the gun the entire time - she is obviously thinking, before he enters the room she is just standing there with her head down holding the gun and looking in the drawer. A scared person who wanted the guy not to come in the house would have warned him not to come in or face being shot. They would also say they are calling the authorities. At that point if she would have acted like a normal scared woman Paul would have probably told her from the hallway she is one crazy bitch and left. But that probably wouldn't have been the end of it - since he knew where she lived he probably would have stalked in her essence and tried to have a conversation with her in the future. Jeanne wanted him completely out of her life, not just out of the apartment that much is true - and killing him accomplished that objective. But what was she thinking about the entire time he walks in and talks and then walks across the room towards her while her hands were on the gun? Why would she even let him get close to her if she was afraid? Why wouldn't she at least threaten to shoot him if he won't leave? It is obvious in the moment what she could have done instinctually to get him not to come in the apartment and leave without killing him. What is very strange is to not say anything, not to act afraid, not to show you have a gun and have the upper hand. Why would any sacred person or rational person behave this way? It makes no sense, unless you factor in that Jeanne wanted Paul gone permanently and obviously was unwilling to explain to him why. When you look at her motivations and what she wanted, being scared aside this is what she wanted, and you look at how she handles the situation, it is hard not to come to the conclusion that she pulled the trigger knowing full well what she was doing, taking care of a problem, and not out of immediate fear in my opinion.
One thing I read on good old wiki was that the actress was actually very upset during the so called "rape" scene. she stated that the tears you see her cry were real, that she felt violated by marlon brando and bertelucci(sorry I'm too lazy to look up the spelling for the director) for making her do the scene in the first place. now this was stated years after in later interviews and it sounds like she was a real nut case anyway but those tears looked pretty real. I'll write you a response in a private message later but suffice it to say I think you may be right but I think too that we are both over analyzing it a bit. but that's part of the fun of being a film buff. see, I said "film" and not "movie" so that makes me look more sophisticated in my opinions!
Rodger Ebert, look out! no wait he's dead
I find it interesting though that I relate to this movie because of my experience as an obsessed older guy who was 38 chasing after a 21 year old and you relate to it as a 21 year old who had an affair with a 48 year old. quite amazing.
Yeah, I have read a lot of comments on how Maria felt "raped" - and it really isn't a conversation I have wanted to weigh into. I can see both sides of the argument to a certain degree - it is true it wasn't until many years later she made these statements, right after the screening and in interviews she had a very different attitude and that is understandable, but questionable at the same time. And apparently there was only one take, if she was feeling that horrible about it why didn't she just stop in the moment, what she was doing was all up to her. I have always taken issue with people who want to blame others for their emotions when in my opinion how you feel is completely on you and not controlled by anyone else, in my opinion if you don't like how you are feeling just stop, problem solved. But I imagine hearing about Bertolucci's methods in this film he did want to have a sense of real emotion from her, he was getting the same performance out of Brando, and in truth isn't "method" acting in part placing yourself in the moment, really trying to feel and experience the emotions of being raped in this instance. We have all heard actor's talk about going to dark places to get in touch with a character's emotions, it would appear that is what Bertolucci led Maria to do. I have no doubts those may have been real tears, but to me that is a good thing, and I think her bringing it up later as a negative had more to do with her trying to distance herself from LTIP and that role, which to her credit she put a lot of herself into.
It is amazing that both of us saw things in the film that mirrored certain experiences from our own lives, from both the perspectives of a young woman and an older man. I hadn't really thought about that until you brought it up but that is fascinating and speaks to the depth of the film. I think LTIP tried to through emotion communicate a "truth" as to human emotion and need and love and desperation in such an ambitious way, that none of this can really be defined it can only be felt and understood in the context of our own understanding of our own emotions in a way, which I think art in its highest forms is supposed to do. And whenever you have that level of artistic expression you will have many people identifying and connecting to very different things and very different interpretations. The fact that this "film" does this speaks a lot.
I think that at the end Jeanne realized that their relationship was destructive, which is why they were both spiraling downwards psyche-wise, and she wanted to be free of him, of loving him so much and of needing him so much, knowing they couldn't be together, but they couldn't be without each other either.
I don't think that the moment she shot Paul can be really rationally explained, which is apparent on her face as she recites that she didn't know him. __________ If the Gods want to punish you, they answer your prayers.
yeah, the ending was weird because i think it escalated way too quickly, i think the only logical explanation is that Jeanne was just completely crazy.. so i agree with you on that
Paul's behaviour was questionable but at least it was more honest and actually made sense.. i mean his wife just killed herself so he probably was depressed and still shocked but also hurt and angry because he felt betrayed by her.. when he meets Jeanne he finds a person to evade his pain with and also a person to whom he could channel his resentment in some kind of revenge towards the female gender.. then in Paul's scene with his dead wife all his repressed emotions to her come out and he actually moves on after that and he feels ready to start a real relationship with Jeanne and really know each other
but Jeanne's reaction to that was something i didn't expect, did she just stopped loving Paul when he got to know more of him? it seems she just lied about loving him and she just enjoyed being Paul's sexual object after all, although she was always complaining about feeling used by him (and her boyfriend too), she was so contradictory and i didn't really understand why she ran away like that from him and ends up shooting him.. maybe a better ending would've been Paul killing himself after realising he was betrayed again and this new hope was a lie .