Confuse Here
Was King Ludwig in love with Sissi in real life?
sharethat's perhaps debatable. It is speculation as to if he was "in love" with her, but one thing is certain, they were very close friends at the very least. I've read several Ludwig II biographies and it seems that Ludwig was close to Sissi but not "in love" per se with her. His letters to Wagner were equally passionate. It seems doubtful that he was romantically involved with Sissi and most likely regarded her as a very dear friend.
An essay I read a few years ago (and can't remember all the details now), theorized that the "Ludwig + Sissi" story line came about in the 1940's-50's as a way to Romanticize the King's life without stepping into the forbidden territory of homosexuality. Though Viscounti does address the king's apparent homosexuality, he still uses the standard (and false???) convention of having a love story involving Elizabeth of Austria.
Just a few of my thoughts. If someone else has more information we can discuss, it would be interesting to hear it.
The biographers of Sisi seem to feel that she was not in love, in a sexual sense, with Ludwig II, but leave open a slim possibility. Perhaps she simply admired his actions; such as building those beautiful castles, and even more importantly by putting Bavaria on an "electric grid". Just for emphasizing the use of electricity the man made life in Bavaria much more livable! I imagine the answer to the question of Ludwig + Sisi is somewhere back in the 19th century and we will never know for certain.
He was a complex character; no doubt about that. I imagine that he was acting even "odder" than what the movie shows due to the fact that a commission was instituted in order to investigate his behavior. That is a VERY serious thing to do when the subject of the investigation is the King.
I imagine that he was acting even "odder" than what the movie shows due to the fact that a commission was instituted in order to investigate his behavior. That is a VERY serious thing to do when the subject of the investigation is the King.I've never read any biographies of Elizabeth, but have read and researched Ludwig II as a hobby for the past 17 years or so. I include a brief overview of some of my thoughts, it will most likely bore many a reader, but here it is:
This is my thought on the report and the commission based on what the report says:
The commission
It really does make a great conspiracy theory. The Prime Minister at the time, Freiherr von Lutz, was loosing popularity and worried he would loose power. The financial situation was hazardous as the king was so in debt he was taking loans out of banks to cover the building costs (no tax money, it's a myth that he built with tax money). We know that in January 1886 Lutz discussed with cabinet members the idea of getting rid of Ludwig, and also discussed what would be more practical.. the constitional way which would be lengthy and public and greatly unpopular with the people... or if there was a more practical way. By declaring him insane, which many Ministers thought he was anyway, it seemed the easiest way. Gudden was then approached by Lutz to find evidence, and secret interviews began with servants and other court members who were released from service. The commission didn't want to use servants still employed with the fear that one of them would warn the King. Obviously these servants might have had a grudge against their boss, or exaggerated what they had seen/heard.
The Report
The details of the commission report which eventually deposed Ludwig II is interesting... not one physician ever personally examined Ludwig himself (which at the time in Bavaria was an infraction when diagnosing illness, and directly contradicted Gudden's own philosophy). The report cited "examples" of his supposed insanity by disgruntled servants... which made Bismark remark "The report is based on the wastebins of history." At the time in the German states, Homosexuality was considered a mental instability and some of the report is full of innuendo with behavior our modern eyes would find rather tame (a passion for male companionship, wanting to see what a handsome soldier looked like without his shirt on...etc.)
A section of the report talks about his reading for hours by night, eating at odd times of the night, and getting "emotional" or "excited" when he listens to Music, also the need to watch performances alone, his fondness for playing childrens games with local peasants instead of mingling with nobility. Bismark felt that the report included some of the worst type of petty lies and obvious bias. It even mentioning how he would drink soup by picking up the bowl instead of using a spoon, thus soiling his dinner jacket. Some of it can be embarrassing since it doesn't sound quite like an insane person, only a very eccentric struggling guilt ridden homosexual. the bottom line is money! he was spending his civil list and crown estate money (not tax money), and his family soon got worried their allowance (which the King controlled) would be cut off.
Ludwig himself even protested to Gudden upon his arrest: "How can you call me insane when you haven't even examined me!!!" To which Gudden replied: "we have enough proof." Ludwig then said "how do you know they aren't lies?" Gudden didn't answer but looked at his watch, looking embarrassed. After several more questions: Ludwig then said: "well, there's an easier way to get rid of me, you could do what they did to the sultan!" (referring to the assassination of the Sultan). Gudden said: "Honour forbids me to answer!"
Private Diaries
It seemed from Ludwig's infamous "Private Diaries" that he was homosexual. While he certainly loved Elizabeth as a dear friend, he really had no sexual feelings for her. There's at least no historical evidence he was romantically in love with her, or sexually at all. There is, however, much more documentation of Ludwig's homosexuality. His diary talks about "not kissing" or "falling" again with his groom, Richard hornig. One such page has an "oath" saying "abstain from every kind of stimulation for 3 months... forbidden to approach closer than 1 paces... just one kiss." The King signed and also Richard Hornig who the king wanted "never to part until death. dated: March 6, 1872"
though it is possible Ludwig and Sissi were romantically involved, my personal opinion is... I really doubt it. One of the King's Private Secretaries said of the young king "He absolutely has no desire for the fairer sex."
There's no doubting how close they were though, but certainly not in love. share
"Sissi" was 7 or 8 years older than Ludwig II. My guess is that he was highly infactuated with her, but her love was in a brotherly sense. Both parties were well aware of the incidence of Hapsburg insanity and physical deformities due to familial inbreeding.
I think Ludwig's descent into insanity was that nearly every passion he had was unrequited. His self-indulgence was, maybe in HIS mind-set, justified..?
I suppose if we are to just base Ludwig as he is presented here in the movie, I would agree with you that he seems infatuated with Sissi, and that his descent into "insanity" was because of unrequited passion. That makes sense since it seems that's Visconti's version of telling the story- and It's a good story.
I would respectfully disagree though for a "historical" Ludwig. He was not nearly as passionate in his writing for Elizabeth as he was with Wagner, or his lover at the time, Prince Paul von Thurn und Taxis. Also, his supposed insanity certianly is self-indulgant, but, was perhaps not caused by unrequited passion.
After the break with Sophie, Elizabeth wrote of Ludwig:
You may well imagine how angry I am about the King; and so is the Emperor. There are no words for such behaviour. I can't understand how he can show his face in Munich after all that has happened. I am glad Sophie has taken it as she has; God knows she could never have been happy with such a man.
Though they reconcilled a bit The relationship between Ludwig and Elizabeth never really bounced back to the closeness it once was- at least from what I have read.
share
Hmmm... since I only recently saw the movie, I based my thoughts on years of avid reading of Ludwig II. "Unrequited passion" was referring to not just Sissi, but Wagner, von Thurn und Taxis, and his emotionally distant parents (Ludwig called his mother "my predecessor's consort".) There was a lot of insanity in the House of Hapsburg, and ultimately, I believe his may very well have been caused by inbreeding.
shareUnrequited passion" was referring to not just Sissi, but Wagner, von Thurn und Taxis, and his emotionally distant parents (Ludwig called his mother "my predecessor's consort".)That makes a lot more sense to me, thanks for clearing it up. Though I don't necessarilly agree I can definately see your point much better now. I misread your post thinking you blamed the insanity on the passion instead of the inbreeding.
There was a lot of insanity in the House of Hapsburg, and ultimately, I believe his may very well have been caused by inbreeding.True enough! by the way, though, his house was the House of Wittlesbach. There was a lot of inbreeding though- that's true.
Edit: I'm not trying to be deliberately antagonistic or argumentative, only debating a subject it appears we both are very interested in, and hopefully in a respectful manner.
share
Sure! It's good to have someone to discuss such a topic. :-)
sharedid the King have syphilis? i thought his teeth going bad was an indication of the silver used as a cure at the time.
shareI really don't know the answer. Does anyone else have more information? I heard this theory before, but can't remember any of the details about it or if it is nothing more than a theory. Hmmm... I really don't know. It would be interesting to find more information on that.
shareActually mercury (QUICKsilver was a term used for mercury), not the element silver, was the standard treatment for that ailment, but I know what you mean. Interesting point. I would be surprised if he did NOT have some sort of sexually transmitted disease but it may have been latent.
shareNo, he didn´t have syphilis. He just ate too many sweets. At that time there was no fluoride toothpaste.
Education leads you through life to hate what should be hated and love what should be loved.
"There was a lot of insanity in the House of Hapsburg,"
Really? Do you have a list of insane Habsburgs?