Why was the audience cheated? - Le Mans (1971) Discussion

[–] Chris_Spekreijse 18 years ago

Snoreflottado,

You seem to know your stuff. I liked the movie and thought it was extremely well done. I am a formula 1 afficionado and not as familiar with Le Mans as you, so I didn't feel cheated. I thought it was more exciting as any cgi generated crap we watch nowadays.

I have one question though *spoiler alert!!!*:

I thought it wasn't possible for a driver to race two car in one race. Do you know if it was (is) against regulations?

Cheers!

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[–] snoreflottado 18 years ago

Hullo Chris,

I also am a fan of F1 but only when it is in the era that 'Le Mans', 'Grand Prix' & 'Winning' were made. These days, F1, the Sports Proto's & 'Indy' style racing has become an utter bore, primarily because they don't pass. Except when they pit! They also have transformed the sport into a business, the amounts of money is just beyond ridiculous. I actually ponder how many race drivers main priority is to race to earn bucks. 30 to 40 years ago this was definitely not the case. Why? Because there wasn't huge money to be had. They raced because it was fun, & they were able to do it. Because of the enormous dollars now available, the racing is utterly, utterly serious. So much so that drivers are restricted to not powersliding their cars out of corners to ensure they achieve maximum possible speed. So? The point I am babbling on about is this; we, the public, the people who spend money to go to races, watch the races on TV are being subjected to racing which, by all accounts, should have improved over the decades, should be very spectacular, is actually a major yawn. These days the cars are fantastically safe, very reliable & between each other, very competitive. I sight this by calling your attention to how close the qualifying times are which determine grid positions for Grands Prix.Usually only one second covers the top ten or so drivers. Why don't the races reflect these times?

Decades ago the cars passed each other, raced on astounding circuits, got sideways and the cars were gorgeous. I can not say the same these days & it could so easily change for the better...

Your question; I do know it was discussed on this board & some said you could, others not. However, I have a 42 year old racing fan friend in Switzerland & I will confirm an answer soon. One thing that I do know. In the era of 'Le Mans' the movie & years previous, the driver was much less important than the car name. In the long run, whichever car won Le Mans got to sell a *beep* load more than the cars that broke or finished behind.

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[–] Chris_Spekreijse 18 years ago

Hi,

If you get that answer, I would sure appreciate it. I searched the net for an answer, but came up with nothing.

Cheers!

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[–] abaka 18 years ago

I think at that time changing cars in mid-race was still allowed. (If I recall it right, also in formula one, where once a driver had to hand over his car to his teammate so he could become World Champion after his car broke down; cant recall the name or year of this though...)

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[–] snoreflottado 18 years ago

Hullo Chris,

Just got a confirmation from my racing friend in Switzerland about driver swapping. He said it was a common occurrence in those days. The manufacturers name was more important than the driver, but of course every manufacturer also wants the fastest driver.

My friend, Thomas Horat, recently worked on a film about his legendary countryman Jo "Seppi" Siffert.

And there is also a large budget feature movie in process about Bruce McLaren, employing some of the big names from the 'Lord of the Rings' trilogy. They all came from the same country - www.thebrucemclarenmovie.com

Enjoy

"Name two ways of getting them flowing, Watson".

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[–] kadajawi 18 years ago

I'm not so sure about that. The 917 is supposed to do 248 mph (394 km/h). Many parts of the film were filmed during the actual race, so probably they have done racing speeds.

"Main parts of the film were filmed on the circuit during the 14 June 1970 race. The Porsche 908/2 which McQueen had previously co-driven to a second place in the 12 Hours of Sebring was entered by Solar Productions to compete in the race, equipped with heavy movie cameras providing actual racing footage from the track. This #29 camera car, which can be briefly seen in the starting grid covered with a black sheet, was driven by Porsche's Herbert Linge and Jonathan Williams. It travelled 282 laps (3,798 km) and finished the race on 9th position, but it was not classified as it had not covered the required minimum distance due to the stops to change film reels."
(Wikipedia)
I guess they cars just didn't drive faster during the race...

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[–] snoreflottado 18 years ago

There is no way the authorities running the race would allow cameras, even unmanned, to be on the track or even on the grass beside the track. These scenes were shot when the track was used privately by the production team, maybe near to the date of the race for the sake of autheticity, but nonetheless there was no racing. They were employing many professionals to train the actors, including SM. So why weren't the pro's allowed to do at least one lap at top speed? They could have set up many cameras both sides & at different points of Mulsanne to create different scenes & check & establish continuity.

"Name two ways of getting them flowing, Watson".

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[–] mikeveg 18 years ago

CHEATED?!?!? You have got to be kidding. If you think the audience was cheated, perhaps you ought to get "A French Kiss With Death... Steve McQueen and the making of Le Mans" and learn just how damn dangerous filming this movie was. Or ask David Piper, who lost a leg as a result of a crash during filming when he hit the guardrail just before Maison Blanche, within 100 yards of where John Woolfe lost his life during the 1969 race. Or check with Dereck Bell, who sustained massive facial burns when the 512 he was driving caught fire. Or actor Luc Merenda, who did his own stuntwork, running away from the Ferrari 512 that left the track and exploded. The explosives were set of earlier than intended, and the lauch through the air was totally real. Notice the lack of a springboard and the fact you can see his feet throughout the entire shot.

Do you actually think that all the professional drivers who were in this movie would have slacked off that much?

Read the book, read the biographies of the drivers involved, and then post an INFORMED comment. Jeez.

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[–] snoreflottado 18 years ago

No not at all. But you "veg" seem to be missing my point. Did you not read 'Professional Drivers'? Did I ask why doesn't SM drive at 240 mph? No. Big difference. I think it is staggering that any ACTOR drive these cars at speed, even a speed nowhere near racing speeds, but fast enough for the scenes when we see the drivers in their cars and a rapidly passing background.

That is not my question.

Let me let into a bit of good oil - the professional drivers do it because they enjoy it. To be paid on top of this is a dream happening in reality. These are the people who could/should have been driving when the cameras are stationary. We, the audience wouldn't have known as they flash along Mulsanne. But the speeds we do see are more likely to be around 150 mph. This is plainly evident to anyone who has seen the Indy 500, from the grandstand or even their TV's, or any F1 race or for that matter 'Top Gear' when they are testing supercars at the aerodrome.

So I repeat my question, why was it that the pro's didn't drive these cars at their top speeds?

"Name two ways of getting them flowing, Watson".

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[–] kadajawi 18 years ago

Read this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Mans_%28film%29

"Main parts of the film were filmed on the circuit during the 14 June 1970 race. The Porsche 908/2 which McQueen had previously co-driven to a second place in the 12 Hours of Sebring was entered by Solar Productions to compete in the race, equipped with heavy movie cameras providing actual racing footage from the track. This #29 camera car, which can be briefly seen in the starting grid covered with a black sheet, was driven by Porsche's Herbert Linge and Jonathan Williams. It travelled 282 laps (3,798 km) and finished the race on 9th position, but it was not classified as it had not covered the required minimum distance due to the stops to change film reels."

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[–] snoreflottado 18 years ago

I have read this & already responded to it. Is there anything more you have to add?

"Name two ways of getting them flowing, Watson".

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[–] kadajawi 18 years ago

Oh, and because you don't believe that the authorities allowed this you say it isn't true? In the past they were much more daring. And I'd rather trust Wikipedia than someone who just doesn't believe it.

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[–] snoreflottado 18 years ago

Have you got any proof that during the 1970 Le Mans 24 Hour Endurance race that cameras of any sort were allowed by the controlling race authority to be set up on the track itself?

I do know that for about 8 weeks Solar Production was given access to the Sarthe Circuit, whether it was every day or not I do not know. It makes more sense to me that it would have been at this time that movie cameras would have been set up ON THE CIRCUIT. How many cars started the 1970 Le Mans? I think from memory it was about 55. I want you to think about this for a tick. We, you & I, have the clarity of hindsight & we can appreciate how significant this flick is. But in 1970 how many professional & non professional drivers would have been giving much consideration to a film crew at a race which is constanly being filmed from all angles, different countries, different formats. It was likely to have been not much of a big deal. Now, picture 55 mad scrambling men in cars well above 120 mph, some 220 mph, the 917's faster, as they try & have a "rest" along the 4 mile Mulsanne Straight & one of these daredevils decides to overtake the slower car ahead on the right hand side of the track but ...whack..cleans up a movie camera on a stand, (something I expect could weigh 20 or 30 pounds,) this would no doubt cause enormous damage to the car & is highly likely to kill it's occupant. This did not happen because I doubt that cameras were allowed to be set up on the track. So, no, until you come up with proof that the STATIONARY cameras were set up on the track during the ACTUAL race, I will refuse to believe anyone would be that stupid. You have to remember that a relatively scant 15 years previous, Le Mans had that disaster where 80 or so people perished.

"Name two ways of getting them flowing, Watson".

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[–] kadajawi 18 years ago

Hm. http://www.wspr-racing.com/wspr/results/wscc/ms1970.html#8 Search for Solar Productions. You will find 2 entries, one of them a Porsche 908/02 that was supposed to be the camera car according to Wikipedia and that did compete in the race, driven by probably professional drivers.
I don't think that all of the material has been shot during the race, but at least some race footage was used. I also don't think that during the race a camera stood on the track, that would have been insane, but with the right lens it should be possible to film it from outside the track and still make it look quite close. I would say that a mixture of race footage and stuff that was set up for the movie.

I think this documentary http://grapeflix.com/Category/frmCategoryDisplay.aspx?CategoryID=247 might clarify the issue. Maybe you'd like to watch it.

Have a look at this picture:
http://www.imdb.com/gallery/mptv/1416/Mptv/1416/4170_0019.jpg.html?path=gallery&path_key=0067334
It appears as if they are not on the track.

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[–] snoreflottado 18 years ago

Please don't interpret this as rude, it is certainly meant to not be, but I do know of the things you write, except for the vid which I will watch when I get a different internet supplier.

During the very first lap of the race, Porsches number 20 & 25 are duelling for the lead along Mulsanne Straight. There is a camera set up on the track. Please watch this if you have a copy handy. This proves to me that this is not actual race footage, as we do agree that there would not have been permission given to do this during the race.

I expect that the reason/s for not running the cars at top speed may have been an insurance issue, or Ferrari &/or Porsche forbade them. But as yet I am to hear any confirmation.

"Name two ways of getting them flowing, Watson".

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[–] kadajawi 18 years ago

Ok. Unfortunately I don't have a copy here, so I can't check it. But I believe you. I still think though that it is a mixture of actual racing footage filmed from outside the track and the camera cars, and of scenes specially created for the film.

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] snoreflottado 18 years ago

Yes, it is a mixture. But it looks to have used far more fictitious film than not. Which makes it rather curious as to why both 'Grand Prix' & 'Le Mans' did not use MORE real race footage. Supposedly both film makers wanted to have their movies appear as realistic as possible. And also, supposedly Frankenheimer has about 250 hours of film footage concerning 'Grand Prix'. The late McQueen estate (or whoever owned the footage) must also have 10's or 100's of hours of film relating to 'Le Mans'.

"...and if the bible has taught us anything (and it hasn't)..." Homer

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[–] joshmetz-1 17 years ago

based on what i understand of the lore surrounding the movie, and many, many, many viewings of the film on screens both large and small, i would say that the use of a mixture of "live" race footage and staged race footage is most likely. you also have to understand (and have read the book) that they mounted cameras on actual Porsche 917K's and Ferrari 512's, greatly increasing their coefficient of drag, thus reducing their top speed and their stability. i remember reading one anecdote about how driving the 917K with the cameras on it was ok until they swung out for the side-by-side shots, which was like running into a brick wall, such was the aerodynamic penalty. there are a great many shots where the cars are indeed running at top speed, piloted by professional drivers such as Derek Bell, Brian Redman, et al, and some of the sensation of speed is lost by the fact that the camera is mounted on a car matching their pace, or nearly doing so. i don't recall a single scene from the movie where you could see into the car while it was on the track and recognize a driver's face (a benefit of the actors and drivers wearing full-face helmets or face-concealing nomex wraps), so i would assume that ANY time you see the cars in motion, one of the professional drivers was behind the wheel.

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[–] snoreflottado 17 years ago

"there are a great many shots where the cars are indeed running at top speed,..."

Please don't misunderstand me. Never would I expect or want the actors or professionals to drive at full speed with mounted cameras. No. These people are my heroes. These scenes were indescribably amazing, exciting, awe inpsiring...

The scenes I refer to are filmed by stationary trackside cameras & sometimes from moving unidetifiable vehicles.

The 917's could top out at 240 mph for the whole race, the Ferrari's 20 mph slower.

Then why is it that they dawdle by the 911's doing only 20 to 30 mph faster?

"...and if the bible has taught us anything (and it hasn't)..." Homer

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[–] rubberducknl77 17 years ago

These cars were mostly designed for low drag, not aerodynamic stability, and the speed difference on a bendy part of the circuit (ie maison blanche) between a 917 and a 911 would not be as great as say the difference between a LMP1 and a GT2 car nowadays. The top speed for the 917 that everybody is quoting is for the LH (longtail) variant, and not for the K (short tail, higher drag) variant McQueen is driving, if I remember correctly and the >400 kmh speed attained by the 917 was only attained during testing, not during the actual race (and deffinatelly not 'for the whole race', the highest ever average speed for Le Mans was 222 mph, in 1971 in a 917K, by Helmut Marko and Gijs van Lennep).
Depending on the camera setup, a lot of these shots were done at close to race speeds, not 'dawdling' around at 140mph. Steve McQueen did not participate in the actual race (for insurance reasons) but has been driving at speed in the 917 for a number of shots in the movie. In fact, that was his main reason for making the movie, the initial idea was actually to have Solar productions purchase a 917 for him to race at Le Mans, under the guise of making a movie, Solar did buy the car, the #20 917, but insurance wouldn't allow him to race.

Anyone familiar with movie making and car racing knows that it is impossible to shoot an entire movie during a 24 hours race, especially something as unpredictable as Le Mans in the 1970's. They shot as much as they could 'real for real', during the event, using both static and mobile camera's (908 car), and adapted the script to whatever footage they got, finishing shooting on a closed circuit during the weeks after the race. In a similar way the more recent French film Michel Vailliant used as much footage from the actual event as they could and shot the rest in a controlled environment (I know because I was there when they filmed).

For all the things there are to say about this film, the audience being cheated is about the last thing that comes into my mind. The amount of realism that went into this movie, using real cars (rather than mockups like they used in Grand Prix, where they used Formula 2 cars for a large portion of the shoot), real racing drivers, the real circuit, real speeds, and real race shots is staggering and is something that would not be financially possible today.

One of McQueen's biggest dreams was racing the 24 hours of Le Mans, but his job wouldn't allow him to do that. This film was as close as he ever got, and his passion for the sport has resulted in what is to me the best contemporary hommage to Le Mans, better than any documentary even could be.

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[–] snoreflottado 17 years ago

Can you explain, then, why the filmed 917's passing the 911's along Mulsanne are doing only a poofteenth of a mile per hour faster than Carl Lewis when flat strap?

I mean really - Are you going to verbalise the 911's were top speeding at 210 mph? They get nowhere near that now and we are closer to being 40 years in the future than 35.

I suspect a 911 slightly worked, in 1970, could do 145 - 150 mph. But prove me wrong.

And it is not "everyone" quoting here. Just little old me.

And there are books, many books, which talk of 917's sitting at 240 mph for the 5 or so days that was Le Mans of 1970 era and Ferrari 512's sitting at 220 mph for the same period. Yes, they did test a 917 and stretched it to 249 mph on Mulsanne. This is printed often in books of the era. Whether it is on the internet, I don't know. My knowledge comes from a time when all we had was print. You too can find these fabulous books in 2nd hand shops.

"...and if the bible has taught us anything (and it hasn't)..." Homer

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