Even as a 9 year old, I was/am an enormous fan of many things Ferrari. But watching the movie at a drive-in in 1971, I still remember at that age urging Abratte not to stop, drive on the flat tyre at a slow speed & cross the line...
Name two ways of getting them flowing, Watson.
he wouldn't get far......cuz he broke part of the rim off as he was slowing down.
shareThis is extraordinary. I ask a legitimate question & you answer with an utter fiction, racer4536. Maybe you do believe this and if you do, then obviously you haven't seen the movie for some time. I suggest you watch the scene then I will welcome your writing. But first up - get it right!
Name two ways of getting them flowing, Watson.
Actually, racer4536 may be correct about the broken wheel. My DVD player has a step by step frame function, and at 1:37:14 (sorry, can't be more precise in 1/10ths of a second) as the tire is delaminating, you can see, for 2 or 3 frames, a large -- 8" to 10" -- chunk of metal come flying out from the area of the leading edge of the wheel, and the soundtrack has a solid metallic 'clank' as the piece hits the ground. I can't get a perfect view because the motion frames are somewhat blurred, but it's possible that it's part of a shattered inner wheel rim, or perhaps a bit of suspension; it's definitely not bodywork. Under such conditions, where attempting to motor miles to the finish line in a crippled car would have made for a moving roadblock with traffic passing at 100 to 200 MPH speed differentials, I think the driver made the correct (i.e., non-suicidal) decision to park for the day.
Cheers, Mark
Can we get one thing straight; this flick is a work of fiction. Which makes me ponder why a less silly demise for Lugo Abratte's gorgeous Ferrari 512 wasn't formulated. Very limp in my reckoning. But in parts it very honestly recreates the Le Mans 24 Hour Endurance Race of which it is based, whether that year be 69, 70 or 1971.
I think you (& many others) are going to have enormous trouble convincing the masses that they were meant to pick up, in the flash of a portion of a second, that there is also wheel rim damage. No-one will dispute that the tyre has deflated and gets torn up in the last frames as we, the audience, view the movie.
But remember, this is Hollywood - the 2 crash scenes are extraordinarliy spectacular, one ending in the ubiquitous explosion. Sound can be added, removed and as was explained in a comment concerning 'Bullitt' by a person who works in 'the industry', it is common to add complete dialogue later, recorded in a studio to not have the street noises interfere. If we were meant to see a wheel rim break apart, we would be left in no doubt. The directors would have ensured this. I still see it as tyre flaying apart as the rim runs over it and chunks fly. It makes sense to me that the rim, with the weight of a quarter of a race car, would cut through the tyre quicker than destroy the rim.
But my point remains - after racing a car for 1438 minutes out of a 1440 minute race, there are many fellow race drivers who ask the same question - why not continue limping on to pass the flag? Many times in reality IT HAS HAPPENED!
"...and if the bible has taught us anything (and it hasn't)..." Homer
Please try watching this movie from a view where you are seeing it for the first time & do not have the luxury of DVD or VHS for the slo-mo replays. Do you then conclude that Abratte has punctured? Or exploded his rear wheel?
Yes, there is a metalic sound. It is most probable to have been the rim hitting the bitumen when the tyre disintergrated. But it is by no measure conclusive that it was the rim disintergrating. It is more likely that it was the tyre coming apart. I say this because the tyre is the softer of the two subject matters.
As far as not motoring to the finish:
1. If an athelete was swimming the English Channel and had her flipper come off 2 miles from the coastline, would anyone expect her to continue? Would anyone be dissappointed she didn't struggle on? What would her back up team be saying, thinking?
2. A cyclist crashes his bicycle at the last corner of the Tour de France with more than a minute in front. He gets up, sees he can sprint to the finish line but the cycle won't ride, so he considers pushing and running beside it...or should he sit on the side & sulk?
3. A lone sailor sailing the world breaks his main mast due to a heavy storm and is only a day from finish. She can rig a makeshift mast and plod on, maybe. Or maybe not.
Abratte. He has about 2 miles to get to the finish line and again I will stress, the Ferrari has been racing for 1438 minutes out of a 1440 minute race. There is adequate room at both track sides to accomodate most of the width of the Ferrari. The cars racing behind would be warned by the flag marshalls using the yellow flag of 'danger ahead'. As soon as the cars had passed the danger zone they would have not seen yellow flags and could continue racing.
In 1973, Doug Chivas pushed a race car up a slight incline for a short distance in Australia, just to make sure he & his team mate, legend Peter Brock would not go out the race. I believe Sir Jack Brabham also pushed a Cooper across the finish line because of zero fuel, to win his first World Championship at Sebring, USA, 1959. Sport people. They try.
"...and if the bible has taught us anything (and it hasn't)..." Homer
At 1:37:09 in the film, the sidewall of the tire cuts away and separates from the tread section, putting the rim on the ground. I checked this 2 minutes ago, so I would say that I saw it recently, especially since I watched the entire film again about a week ago. Only a total moron would keep driving at this point, and he would have been black-flagged anyway. Driving around with a flat makes for good fictional drama, but idiotic behavior on a track. Perhaps after you read "A French Kiss with Death", as I suggested earlier, you could avail yourself of a vintage copy of FIA and other racing rules from the era. Oh, and the flat occurred at 23:58, not 23:59. Try listening to the announcer and getting your facts right before you jump down other people's throats.
shareOriginally I was gonna name the 'post' "23 hours, 59 minutes and 58 seconds" but I thought this somewhat too melodramatic, possibly even hysterical, in a psychological way that is. So yes I was very aware of the minute when Abratte's tyre went flat. But for you "veg", I will re-name it to the minute.
Now, I find it audacious that you would use the word 'moron' to describe any racing driver who would limp to the pits to don fresh rubber. After all, many & probably most have done this, especially the endurance drivers. You obviously do not have a clue as to what the basic requirements are to become a top line athlete, let alone, race driver. The character that is Abratte would never get a professional drive, were he to exist in real life - managers would spot he is a defeatist & 'game over' for him before it even starts. Were he to be employed once, for this sake the 1970 Le Mans 24 Hour Endurance, & he were to stop on the last lap, after covering about 2/3 of that last lap & then stop because his tyre is flat, then he would NEVER get another drive.
And do you know why? Here are a few reasons
1. This Ferrari 512 S has just covered 1438 minutes of a 1440 minute race. What is he going to tell the team manager, who would have to explain to Enzo Ferrari's manager OR maybe even the Commendatore himself? Everyone would be asking "why didn't you just drive on the rim, they are expendable, the finish is paramount, the only thing that matters..."
2. You mention he would have been 'black flagged'. Maybe. But answer me who is it who decides to issue a black flag? That's correct - The 'Clerk of the Course'. And where does this gentleman reside during such a race? That's correct - in the control box at the start/finish area.
So if Abratte had have limped on, by the side of the track, and crossed the finish line then he could have let his team manager sort it out. And personally, if this scenario was fact, it is up to the clerk's discretion to penalise. He may not have. I think this act would have been seen by most, at least the most who matter, as being brave enough to earn a pat on the back, rather than a BF, let alone a title from you as being a 'moron'
Maybe a better plot for the movie would have been to have his wheel nut come flying off, then the wheel
"Name two ways of getting them flowing, Watson".
Fine, snore..... I did not make my explanation as clear as I thought I did in my post. LeMans is a race of total distance. Crossing the "finish" line is not the same there as in other races. It is the total distance travelled in 24 hours that counts. Therefore the extra distance he would have gotten in the last 2 minutes would have made no difference, and he would have been a danger to others. That would have been moronic, indeed. Had it been earlier in the race, I would assume he would have driven back to the pits. The reference to FIA rules at the time regarding endurance and distance racing described situations like this, where a damaged car that had no chance of being repaired and continuing the race, was required to retire at the first safe place off of the track.
For those who doubt the way LeMans is scored, note that in the first year of Ford GT40 victory (1966)Ford staged a photo finish, with their cars 1-2-3 and very close together. Ken miles crossed the line first, but Bruce Mclaren, who started further back on the grid, had covered more distance, so he won. Had this not have happened, Miles would have won Sebring, Daytona, and LeMans all in the same year.
It should be noted that none of this is as moronic as thought of attempting to remake this movie!
.... coffee is the beer of the morning
"where a damaged car that had no chance of being repaired and continuing the race..."
Agreed.
But the 512 was not damaged. It had only one flat tyre. You can drive on a flat tyre. And when back at the pits, the team and manager assess if there is damage and then if it is feasible to repair.
But again, there is less than 120 seconds left, he would not pull into the pits, he would drive across the finish line! In fiction or in real life racing, stopping as he did is non sensicle; if it was real life - Abratte (probably Italian), driving for the pride of Italy - Ferrari, leading Le Mans and about to spank the German Porsches and he stops a mile or so from the 4 pm finish would not be acceptable, he would be skinned alive on return to his home country by the Tifosi, let alone what the Ferrari team and Enzo himself would have reacted.
Imagine a very possible & likely scenario (if this was life) with Abratte (who was leading!!) is limping on because the engine is still firing on all 12 cylinders, has no reason to not have all brakes working but the 512 has to be driven slowly as the steering is odd beacuse of an unusual weight distribution, but none the less is still moving, knowing he has about 2 kilometres to finish. Two 917's and his team mate's 512 flash by. Because the WIN is paramount, is crucial, the now new 2nd & 3rd place are going to be racing so hard they are likely to take OFF 1, 2, or all 3 cars in one hit as they squabble at the last bunch of corners.
Then, comes ol' limpy Abratte past the steaming wrecks, with his left front up high, steering a bit funny and going slowly, but he crossed the line at 4:00:05 pm...
There just could have been more plausible plots to make this a very great movie.
"and this one is just for socks and poopoo undies". MK
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Trex - I remember reading decades ago a chapter in a book about Derek Bells racing life where it said that at some point during the making of 'Le Mans' that control & direction was removed from Steve McQueen by cockheads from 'Follywood', and the second half was in their control, which was the cause of the ludicrous finish that is in the published product. Such a great pity...as moronic as having a horse trainer directing a movie about hairdressing!!!
"...and if the bible has taught us anything (and it hasn't)..." Homer
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Trex, Because of all the silliness of the movie, let's write plausible, believable, entertaining & realistic scenarios.
"...and if the bible has taught us anything (and it hasn't)..." Homer
no one seems to be discussing one of the main reasons that a professional race car driver, driving for national pride (Abbrate could just as easily have been Spanish, btw) and victory for the Tifosi would have pulled over with 2km left in a 24 hour race: if he continued on, he could cause SERIOUS damage to the car and jeapordize Ferrari's chances in the World Sportscar Championships. These cars were hand-built and were VERY expensive. Driving on a deflated tire alone can shred the fiberglass rear section and the fragile (due to being built to light-weight over strength) suspension components, causing ever more loss of control than a little "funny steering" problem. I have seen cars try and limp around much shorter race tracks with a shredded or de-laminated tire and have to withdraw from the race, which would have been the same result as sitting in the gravel trap or by the side. Abbrate acted in the intrest of conserving the car for Monza and the Watkins Glen races, with the championship in mind.
sharejoshmetz-1 hit the nail on the head. He could have torn the car to pieces and created more damage just to limp to the end.
Plus why can't people realize that this is just a movie? I think they were merely trying to potray the disappointment involved in racing. Even when everything seems to be going your way and a win looks likely, ANYTHING can happen and go wrong. At it's simplest level, that's what they were showing. Plus, it was the producers and directors job to represent as much as possible about 24 hour racing in under 2 hours. In order to this, you have to selectively compress everything and every detail about it. Yes, there might have been a race in which a driver continuted driving on the rim, or pushed is car, or got out and ran, but they couldn't possibly show how every driver would handle and react to this situation. They merely chose this particular scenario, whether you think it's the "right thing to do" or not. Drivers are human, and not programmed robots instructed to behave the same way in every situation.
Yes, this is a movie. A movie which used an amount of actual film from the 70 or 71 24 Hour. I believe McQueen wanted to show a semi-documentry style film.
My point is this; the scenario with Lugo Abratte is somewhat lame and not believable. The director should have consulted with the professionals & McQueen and devised a situation where it was impossible for Abratte to finish his last half lap - maybe a sheering or breakage in the steering...
"...and if the bible has taught us anything (and it hasn't)..." Homer
I feel I must make one point clear; I do/would not expect ANYONE to drive at or close to race speeds when driving a 'tricycle'. Clearly, he would not have won (unless the other 3 took each other out via a racing shunt) but would certainly be able to cross the line to finish 4th - 3 points towards the Championship.
I think, josh, you are correct & incorrect on some of your points.
The point of serious damage to the 512; I'm sure you are well aware that to meet homologation ruling to allow entry to the 'World Sports Car Championship', manufacturers had to present 25 complete, ready to race cars. There was no shortage of both cars OR budget, so the cars were expensive but expendable.
Enzo Ferrari was well known to consider his road cars as somewhat obnoxious, but an imperative tool to creating the wealth to allow Ferrari to participate in his main passion/obsession; car racing. And more importantly, winning car races. From Enzo or Ferry Porsche or the Ford bosses, the Lola bosses, the Matra bosses points of view, the one race of the year in which it is neccessary to win is the Le Mans 24 Hour Endurance Race. Why? Because lots of people who are not car racing fans do not know of the words and meanings of Monza, Watkins Glen, Oesterreichring, Spa Francorchamps, Sebring, Nordschleife but a lot of them would have heard of Le Mans, even before McQueen came along. The more people interested in the results of the Le Mans race translates directly to how many cars get sold, sometimes the very day later. The winning manufacturer sold more than the second, third, fourth etcetra places.
The point I make is just this; Abratte's car had a firing engine, it had 3 inflated tyres, it had no reason to not have brakes or steering, it had a short distance to finish and he attempted nada, zip, zero, zilch, zed. He did not even beat the car up with a branch - al la Basil Fawlty! No, he sat there and felt sorry.
I will repeat, no non-fictional racing driver would do nothing. It is in their personality to fight to the "death"- aka 'the killer instinct'.
And if they did do nothing, they would never be hired to drive professionally again.
ps A little thing I found in 'Wiki'; The race review of the 1971 24 Hours of Le Mans talks of an incident with New Zealand ace Chris Amon while coming 2nd in a 3 litre Matra...
"...and if the bible has taught us anything (and it hasn't)..." Homer
For those of you interested in remarkable finishes at Le Mans, I was at this years event and anyone who had seen it knows that Sebastien Bourdais stopped his Peugeot 908 car litterally on the last lap of the race. Many people think that he did that because of torrential rainfall and to have the leader pass him to not have to race another rainsoaked lap afterwards. In actual fact he declared later that litterally on the last lap he lost all oil pressure in the car, and he knew he was never going to be able to drive it around for one more lap. He therefore parked his car for a long time 2 corners before the finish line, knowing that if the engine stalled he could drive it over the finish using the starter motor. The ACO rules state that the last lap a car drives cannot take more than 8 minutes, however Peugeot being a French team, and the horrible weather conditions taken into account, the ACO didn't give the 908 a DNF...Had it been an Audi, the result could have been different. Just to illustrate that in the 85 years this race has been going on, there have been some remarkable and sometimes very unlikely finishes, and the one in the movie is no more unlikely than some other finishes before and after.
shareBefore commenting on your two writings here, you may also appreciate the running of the 1984 Monaco Grand Prix.
Perhaps you remember it as distinctly as I do. I found it astounding. A 'kid' of 24, his 4th grand prix, (8months older than me!) was catching Alain Prost at 3 seconds a lap. I believe Prost was driving a McLaren & Senna was driving a "truck" Toleman. Get that! Prost, "The Professor" in a vastly superior McLaren is being reeled in by an upstart in a box of *beep* at three seconds per lap.
When there is the 'embarrassing' realization that a non 'Continental' will spoil the French Rivieran party, the 'Clerk of the Course' is called on to "...do his duty (for the honour)..." and, dutifully, French Belgian Jacky Ickx makes the decision that, (luckily, the race is half way (and therefore can be stopped and counted as a race [albeit with half point alocation]), as there is torrential rain, the situation is too dangerous and should now be stopped.
At the point that Ickx decided to swing the flag was the very lap, Senna had caught & passed Prost. But the results are taken from the previous lap. Frenchman, Jean Marie Balestre was very happy indeed.
"...and if the bible has taught us anything (and it hasn't)..." Homer
Just watched this for the first time, and I was under the distinct impression that the failed tire also caused wheel damage.
sharevlad - please watch again. I disputed this point a while back and I watched the scene countless times and am convinced the wheel is not damaged. There are metallic noises, which may have been introduced to have us conclude there may be damage.
However, I must make a point of the determination that is absolutely necessary to be a top grade driver - they do not give up until all is lost. Find Gilles Villeneuve at the 79 Dutch GP: Enzo Ferrari was ecstatic that his driver did what he did to keep racing. Or the determination of Frank Williams, a racer from long ago, who told his driver, world champ, Keke Rosberg, to "Get back in the 'eff'ucking car now!!" when his Williams caught fire at Brazil in 83.
My point is; damage or not to the wheel, any 'driver' would push on to the finish. Remember, there is less than 120 seconds to go in a race that is 86,400 seconds long.
"...and if the bible has taught us anything (and it hasn't)..." Homer
Whether the wheel was actually damaged visibly in the shot is irrelevant if the filmmakers intended to convey that his car sustained wheel damage and was out of the race. The visual effect is a mere detail, and while it might've been nice to provide more evidence, they weren't making the movie for people who'd examine such things in slow motion or frame by frame. I believe it was their intention to convey more than a blown tire, and in that, they succeeded, at least in my case.
Besides, assuming he was 2 minutes from the end, that means he would have to cover six miles on three wheels. Could he do it? Sure. Would he have placed well enough for the effort to be worth it? No. Not with every other car doing 200 mph.
vlad - If he had not have had the puncture, it is very likely he would have had to complete another lap. Because he would have passed the finish line before 4:00 pm. The spot where Abratte retires his stricken Ferrari is well after the (almost 4 mile [7 kilometre]) Mulsanne Straight.
Pucntured, and had he continued, he would not have won (presuming as we are meant to that all drivers are on the same lap) but he would have finished, maybe 3rd, maybe 4th. AND if the other cars had have come-a-cropper, he could have hobbled over the line for a better result. Please remember that Le Mans was only one of ten or so races throughout the year that determined the World Sports Car Championship and to finish is paramount. Winning is preferable but even a 6th place gets a point.
But it is just a movie...
"...and if the bible has taught us anything (and it hasn't)..." Homer
I just don't think he would've done even as good as sixth with that particular casualty. My opinion, though.
It is just a movie...but it's also a damned fine one.:)
As a movie and I have suggested this before, the premise should have had Abrattes beautiful 512 break something which would have rendered the car un-driveable - possibly the shearing of a steering linkage bolt. This would show what the director was trying to achieve here by portraying how such an insignificant and inexpensive item can cause such heartbreak.
But in reality, (and please do not take this personally!) but your opinion means zero. Does my opinion mean anything? Absolutely not! The only 'opinions' that matter here are the drivers and his team manager and Enzo.
It is so unlikely that 2 cars are going to be on the same lap after 24 hours and less likely for 3, 4, 5, or 6 cars also.
To be a sportsman such as a world class race driver, one would have to have a bunch of innate characteristics, one being that they fight "to the death", no matter what. In this case until Lugos Ferrari is absolutely inoperable. And, had this incident happened in life, it would have been Abrattes last professional drive - certainly for Ferrari, anyway.
More than 10 years previous to this films setting, Jack Brabham pushed his Cooper across the line to finish sixth after running third through the race. Chris Amon punctured and drove to the pits at least once. Gilles Villeneuve had a most memorable 79 Dutch GP due to a punctured tyre.
"...and if the bible has taught us anything (and it hasn't)..." Homer
Actually, our opinions do, in some small way matter, as we're not dealing with a real race. If opinions such as yours were prevalent, it could indicate a minor flaw in the film, which can serve as a useful guide to others. If, on the other hand, you feel your willingness to accept what the director is telling you equals or exceeds mine, my opinion can also serve as a useful guide.
Very few things in the world are completely useless.*grins*
See! You did take it personally. I meant this not to be done.
"...and if the bible has taught us anything (and it hasn't)..." Homer
Say what?
shareThis is sometimes a difficult movie to discuss; do we discuss it as if it is a fictional film knowing it is fiction, do we discuss it as if it is a fictional film wanting to be as realistic as possible, do we discuss it as if it is wanting to be a documentary or do we discuss sports car racing - the subject? Do we also discuss it without taking comments as if they are a personal attack?
What I write here, I try not to offend or upset anyone, but sometimes my wordsmithing is inelegant.
I wish my words to be interpreted as if I am commenting on the actual race - that is, as if the script was written from actual events.
1. The Le Mans 24 hour was one of ten (or so) races around Europe, Britain & the Americas where every race finish, 6th or above, was counted towards the eventual points tally at the end of the year, similar to Formula 1 except that in the 'Sports & Prototype' category, the manufacturer was the champion, not any driver. (The manufacturers would employ the top F1 pilots, however, when F1 race dates clashed with S & P races, the F1 drivers drove F1 & 'S & P' cars were driven by men ever so close to F1 capabilities). It is all about the car.
2. The closest race finish in the Le Mans 24 hour was in 1969 between two cars, spaced by about 300 - 400 feet/100 metres - a few seconds. Jacky Ickx, the winner had a very interesting start to this race.
3. Enzo Ferrari would have been furious beyond description had one of his drivers stopped instead of driving slowly towards the finish. (Dangerous? Yes, very dangerous. The whole damn sport is/was. Driving for a full minute every lap for 380 odd laps at 240 miles per hour/390 kilometres per hour says it all to me. Then to have to deal with cars in other categories - full race but smaller capacity, full road but large capacity, full road with medium capacity, full road with small capacity - some with a top speed barely above 100 mph. Dangerous? Yes, that is what these men want & this is what they get paid to do. If they don't do what they are asked to do, they do not get employed.) A driver, any driver employed to drive race cars does it because of many reasons, but one of the reasons is because it is dangerous. That any driver would not continue to the finish line after 1438 minutes would not, just would not, happen. Not to mention the skinning he would most likely receive from the 'Tifosi' on return to Italy, how embarrassed would he have been forever as all in the racing fraternity would laugh, point, snigger. Even the wives would giggle in his direction.
4. Had "Abratte"s car not had it's puncture, he may not have won. Why? Because he would have crossed the finish line before the fabled 4:00pm time, meaning another lap. But he would have covered more distance, so maybe he would have won.
5. The idea of two cars being on the same lap after 24 hours of racing is very improbable. It has happened but not often. 3 is highly unlikely & 4 cars on the same lap (& 3 nose to tail) is astronomically preposterous.
6. If "Abratte"'s Ferrari had have continued at a pace which, physically could not have been more than a horse gallop, remembering that flag marshals would have been waving yellow flags madly to warn other drivers of danger ahead, he would have crossed the line (had the other 3 cars on the same lap successfully negotiated all obstacles cleanly) in 4th place. This is fact because no other cars would have been on the same lap. Ferrari would have been awarded 3 points for "Abratte"'s place & 4 points for the other Ferrari finishing 3rd. In Enzo's eyes "Lugo" would have been a hero.
7. My interpretation of the damage to the 512's right rear wheel has it that it is punctured & nothing more.
8. And the most important point - the cars all raced with one spare wheel & tyre, jack, wheel brace etcetera!
In the USA the media constantly cover 'desperates' fleeing the police & are driving vehicles that have 1, 2 or more punctured tyres. The vehicles are anything but stationary until they get trapped. And these fools/morons never have professional driving skills but still manage to motor on for 'x' distance.
"...and if the bible has taught us anything (and it hasn't)..." Homer
And a little note to anyone here who doubts what I write.
I have found that professional race car driver, Tony Adamowicsz, in the early '80's, got a puncture inside one quarter of a lap (at the corner leading onto the Mulsanne Straight) and, guess what, drove approximately 6 miles (9 kilometres) to the pits for 'new boots'.
"...and if the bible has taught us anything (and it hasn't)..." Homer
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In case anyone still has doubts about this bit of the film, the know-it-all bozo who "watched the scene countless times and am convinced the wheel is not damaged" is actually wrong. If you watch the footage closely in the last shot of the deflated tire the wheel itself is wobbling loosely on the wheel spindle before that mystery hunk of metal (knock-off hub?) goes flying by. The tire rim itself is definitely broken and likely tearing the hell out of the wheel tub at that point.
Clearly, Abratte does try to drive on with the punctured tire. He nurses it along and then the rim breaks, so he pulls it over and shuts down.
I just watched a rented Lemans from netflicks on my new big screen, okay, here's a couple of points.
1. The cars carry spare tires. You can see the spare tire on Michael Dalany's car after his crash after most of the body work flies off. So Lugo is aloud to change it.
2. Why do people seem to think the race stops presicely at 4. Where ever you are on the track at four, you must finish your lap to get 'credit' as a finisher. Like others have said, if you just crossed at 3:59 and 55 second, then you have to go all the way around, so with a 3 plus minute lap for the fastest cars and 4 plus for the slower cars, the race ain't really over 'til maybe 4:05.
3. Towards the end of the race, you've got a few cars just cruising to 'limp' to the finish, so their lap times are pushing 5 and 6 minutes. I was at the '82 Sebring 12 hours, the two lead cars fought the last hour, Bobby Rahal in a March with just 3rd gear while John Paul's 935 only had 5 cyclinders. ya just keep driving.
4. I don't remember where I read this, but all drivers have like about 15 minutes to crawl to the official finish, after 4:00, to get credit. So Lugo (I thought his name was Hugo until I read the credits.)
5. folks the cars aren't ALL going 200 mph all the time. The fastest cars - the long tail 917's and 512's would hit maybe 245 on the mulsanne straight - other 917's and 512's with the short tail would do 235. The lower classes were lucky to hit 170. At the ford chicane they're doing probably 35. On the second longest straight between mulsanne corner and the indianapolis corner (which is like a mile) the fastest cars might hit 190mph. Thats were it looks like Lugo gets his flat.
6. and something nobody mentioned. While everyone is cheering in the pits as they get out of the cars you see Lugo show up and sit next to the Ferrari team manager on the pit wall...you can see it even with out using super slow motion...and the manager and Luge are discussing then arguing. I don't think it's about where they're going to have dinner. So he either limped his precious ferrari back about 2 mile to cross the finish line for a well earned 4th, body work damage be damned -or- he caught a real quick ride with some French track marshall so he wouldn't miss all the champagne spraying.
Spare tire? Do you seriously believe that in race cars, where every ounce counts, they would lug around a spare tire? What are they going to do, just pull over to the side of the track and jack the car up by hand?
What you probably thought was a spare tire was the large engine cooling fan in the 917's. They're quite visible in the middle of the inlet duct in the back deck of the car.
The cars back then had to carry a spare tire and a second seat, they were sports cars not race cars, that was the old rules. Use the web and look it up.
shareI don't remember that the homologation rules have ever required a spare. Regardless, no driver was going to get out and change a tire on the side of the track in the middle of LeMans! I don't think you can even get one of those knockoffs off without a pneumatic wrench.
The real point is that Abratte had a broken wheel, not just a flat tire. There was no way to limp the car over the finish line. He was through.
So how did Lugo get back to the pits so fast? He's shown sitting on the pit wall arguing with the Ferrari team captain dud with the thick glasses while everyone is cheering, next shot is the winners going up to the podium and the BIG clock clearly slows like 6 minutes after 4 (no slo-mo needed). But using the slo-mo on my blu-ray, what ever broke off is not part of the rim, the rim is gold and the part that flies past is very blur-a-ly something silverish, likely a body part from the wheel well. Also re-watching it, he's somewhere along the 'Porsche curves' between 'Arnage' and the pit straight, which is about 1 and a half miles to the end.
I say he limped to the finish on three good tires for fourth, and the visual of driving at 10- 15 miles an hour was rather boring for the editor so that clip made the cutting room floor.
Also regarding the spare tire, I have a FLY (out of Spain) 1/32 scale slot-car Gulf Porsche 917K number 20, from the 1970 Le Mans ... and you can see the spare just over the exhaust pipes. On my FLY 512 Ferrari (from Daytona 1970) you can't see if it does or not. I'm not saying Lugo changed the tire, he got back to the pits to quickly to do that, and the race was over, not 'the middle of' so nobody was 'racing by'. At the end of Le Mans unless you're in contention within your class, which is not likely (you might be 4 laps in second), everyone is just cruising to make the minimum distance to be qualified, so most are not going flat out.
I was at the '82 and '83 Le Mans, towards the end there's only like 20 cars left over the last 4 or 5 hours and with an eight mile track, thats petty spaced out.
OK, fair enough, but if you're looking that closely answer me this: in that last shot, where you see a piece of something go flying out of frame, doesn't it look like the wheel itself is wobbling noticeably? I'm reading that sequence of shots as the filmmakers showing that Abratte is trying to make it home for the win on a deflating tire and then bang! the wheel breaks or comes loose and he literally can't drive it anymore.
I'm not disputing the notion that cars regularly limped in to finish LeMans. I'm just saying that you couldn't do it with a broken or very loose wheel. Abratte got a ride backs to the pits with a track marshal or spectator (in the plot of the movie), leaving his 512 on the track.
"...and if the bible has taught us anything (and it hasn't)..." Homer
know-it-all-bozo here;
wab-3 - from any film buff's POV, he/she would conclude that Abratte's car suffered a flat tyre, and they may accept that the car can no longer proceed. It is just too quick & unclear a scene to determine whether the tyre is merely flat or the wheel breaks.
From a reality & racers POV, it matters zero whether the tyre or wheel is at fault. You drag the car over the line, in any condition. IF IT WILL MOVE, KEEP THE CAR MOVING! The 512 was driveable, he is OBLIGED BY CONTRACT to Ferrari to drive it.
And he was leading the bloody race!!! The 'Tifosi' would have been going absolutely wild with glee, in a way that only the Italians in their patriotic glory can. Then, within a mile or two from the glory that would have been his for Ferrari, Abratte stops. (It is not the first time that a tyre (or mechanical) situation has occurred & will not be the last. Racers continue until the car gives up, and in the decades past, the drivers would get out and do whatever repairs they could, quite often getting the cars again moving. The seat belt rules introduced in the late '60's would now make it too difficult to re-strap oneself so many trackside repairs may not now take place).
On discovering that their beloved Ferrari was now stopped within a few minutes of 4pm, the 'Tifosi' would have been instantly heartbroken. When revealed that the only reason Abratte stopped was because of a puncture, the 'Tifosi' would have been so outraged some would have wanted to skin Lugo alive, had they been able to get their hands on him. The Ferrari team manager, (probably based on Mauro Forghieri,) would have been livid at Abratte, and Mauro would have been the man to front the 'Commendatore' - Enzo Ferrari himself. Enzo would not have been a happy chappy, totally embarrassed in front of the whole racing world by not winning at Sarthe because of a little puncture.
(The director should have been much clearer regarding this scene - be it a broken steering shaft or a broken drive shaft would have rendered the car uncontrollable & undrivable.)
And yes, sagehaven is absolutely correct when he/she states the cars had to carry spare wheels and a second seat. That you - wab-3 - think that he/she mistook the cooling fan on top of the air cooled flat 12 Porsche engine is an insult to anyone's intellect.
If you wish to discuss any of this, contact Tony Adamowicsz, a man who has done just this scenario. Read his passage here and on the continuing page:
http://www.a2zracer.com/page88.html
I watched the film again with a friend who is a longtime race driver and motorsports journalist. I remembered to ask him what he thought happened to the wheel on the lead Ferrari during the final climax. He ran it again at 1/2 speed, then said, "Spindle snapped. Tire flats and he runs on the rim until camber leverage snaps the spindle. That's the knock-off flying out of frame. Seen it on the track more than once."
"Some dolt on the net gassed on forever that he should have driven for the win on the flat."
"He's an idiot. The wheel is completely broken off the car. The only way it's going over the finish line is on the back of a wrecker."
There you go. It's not a gaffe, it's laudable technical accuracy by the filmmakers.
Let us consider this. Most of the audience in 1971 would have been SM fans - some with motor racing knowledge, some without. I would think it fair to say most would be without. For the very short period of time that Abratte has his 'incident', we the general audience interpret the Ferrari as suffering a flat tyre. This is a successful interpretation - in that anyone with zero knowledge of anything car wise can see immediately he has a flat tyre & understandably, he can race no further. It is Lugo's sheer bad luck. But there is no reason he cannot continue along the circuit side slowly, to cross the line; the car has 4 wheels, steering, brakes & an engine which still is firing. My point is this; this particular 512 is leading, has less than 2 minutes to 'clock off', less than a couple of miles (about a third - the last third - of one lap) to the finish line & the fightless Italian gives up the ghost. Lugo Abratte can only interpret from his driving seat that he has a flat tyre. But he stops, pulls down his balaclava & pouts & sulks. Are you aware of the group known as the 'tifosi' that have always surrounded all race categories Ferrari? Ask your "friend who is a longtime race driver and motorsports journalist." He will explain. This group, just for starters would have been furious beyond measure, because he gave up. He was leading!
Then, Abratte would have to explain to the team manager what had happened to which I adamantly suspect the manager would have screamed "So what? Why did you not drive on? Why did you not change to the spare? You were leading! Enzo wants your head on a platter!!! No-one gives a *beep* about the tyre, the wheel or the suspension, you just needed to get the car across the line, you bumbling jackass!!!"
"Some dolt on the net gassed on forever that he should have driven for the win on the flat." Never, ever have I written anywhere that Abratte should have driven on "...for the win...". This is a misinterpretation by whoever wrote this - someone who should have read what I wrote more than once. If one is going to dispute me, understand fully what I have written first.
"He's an idiot. The wheel is completely broken off the car. The only way it's going over the finish line is on the back of a wrecker." And whoever wrote this literary drivel needs to view the footage again. The wheel is not broken, The tyre has gone flat, the outer bead has been driven over a couple of revolutions by the outside wheel rim edge & cut the much softer tyre rubber into bits. This is most probably, logically the chunks that we see flying. What I can hear at this point is rim on bitumen. Again, if one is going to dispute me, understand fully what I have written first.
wab-3, Your mate maybe correct - I have no problems with that. (although I absolutely disagree, interpreting the mishap as a punctured tyre only, and I can see no damage to the wheel or hub & spindle area, and something which is virtually unprovable unless one can get hands on the script) But take into account that that is a large amount of technical information for a largely non-technical audience in 1971 to grasp within a few scant seconds. It is much more easily interpreted as a puncture.
'21 now gets past. #5 the leader has a flat tire near Indianapolis, Abratte retires the Ferrari in disbelief. Wilson speeds past now in the lead with two minutes left.' This is from IMDB's plot synopsis.
'In the closing minutes of the race two Porsches and two Ferraris closely compete. The Porsches are driven by Delaney (now in car #21) and Larry Wilson (#22). One of the Ferraris, leading the race, suffers a flat tyre and is out of the race, ...' Wikipedia.
The film writer/s &/or director/s should have slightly rearranged this scene - meant to show how one can get so, so close to the ultimate prize, only to have it snatched by something so frivolous. To me, it should have been a steering column breakage or even a wheel rim 'explosion', rendering the vehicle absolutely undrivable.
"...and if the bible has taught us anything (and it hasn't)..." Homer
You keep making the same insistent assumption over and over, that they shot the film to make it appear that Abratte retires solely due to a flat tire and that that is a huge ERROR in the film. But it's not. The vast majority of viewers would have assumed that a flat was enough to put Abratte out of the race. The synopses describe it that way because almost no one can tell it wasn't just a simple flat, yes, but it's obviously sufficient in that countless reviewers over the years haven't been asking, "Hey, why didn't he just drive on on the rim?"
Your last paragraph is where we are in complete agreement. For the film to be perfect, they should have made it obvious that the car absolutely cannot be driven further. But they did go for the drama by having Abratte try to limp the car in. You're saying that they got it horribly wrong instead of appreciating that the filmmakers actually got it right by having Abratte drive on the rim until the car breaks completely. It would not surprise me if the director or McQueen gave exactly that direction to the stunt driver. Lo and behold, they watch the footage in dailies and the shot is framed a little too tight to make it clear the rim disintegrates. Or it might even just be that the shot was cropped in the DVD transfer and in the original print it's quite clear that the rim goes to pieces.
Whatever, I think you just won't admit that you were determined to bash the film out of self-inflated expert's ego and that close analysis shows that the filmmakers had it right all along. In fact, now that I think about it, the cropping could very well have been a mastering error. Maybe the shot will be fixed in the Blu-Ray version.
OK, I checked reviews of the new Blu-Ray release. It sounds like the distributors have done a fresh mastering job, so I suggest no more quibbling until you've seen the Blu-Ray version.
Remember, the tifosi did not make a stink about how Abratte is portrayed as handling the breakdown when the film was originally released, right? So maybe in the original print it was clear that the car was undrivable.
It just gets worse. Hey, snoreflottado, go put your DVD of Le Mans in and skip ahead to 51:40. Say, what's that? Is that the 917's "spare tire", which you said was absolutely not a cooling fan, is that it VISIBLY SPINNING?
I knew you were wrong seven months ago. God, how pathetic. You are totally discredited.
...And the last word on the subject, after FOUR YEARS. In the Blu-Ray version, at 1:37:19 a huge chunk of the INNER rim goes flying off the wheel. I think that's what has been confusing everyone, because after the chunk goes flying out of frame you can still see the outer rim whole. Regardless, it's clear from the shot that the wheel is wobbling because the suspension mount is broken. It's not because the central lug nut loosens or breaks (my bad on thinking that) because you can see the wheel and lug nut wobbling as one piece. Clearly, some part of the wheel mount or suspension has broken.
Again, and for the last time: Abratte does try to limp the car to the finish on the flat tire. After 20 seconds or so the suspension breaks and the wheel disintegrates. The car is clearly UNDRIVABLE at that point. The filmmakers had it right all along.
especially for wab-3
http://snoreflottado.blogspot.com/
enjoy
I do know you have not died in the last 24 hours, so look up the blog I have constructed especially for you & your motor racing journo buddy & respond.
Stop hiding, you gutless whimp.
especially for wab-3
http://snoreflottado.blogspot.com/
enjoy
"...and if the bible has taught us anything (and it hasn't)..." Homer
Yep, watched it again in 1080p on a friend's gorgeous and huge plasma screen. In attendance were three racing buddies:
--Veteran SCCA Corvette, MGB and Sprite driver and SCCA race steward for 23 years
--Veteran SCCA MGB driver and SCCA race steward for 15 years
--Semi-pro rally driver who has campaigned his WRX in Rally America for serious points
Question asked after watching the critical sequence of Abratti's car pulling off:
"What failed on the car?"
--"Wheel spindle broke."
--"Wheel spindle or suspension mount."
--"Possibly the brake rotor detonated and sheared a mount, but it looks like a clear spindle break."
"Could he have limped the car to the finish line?"
--"Absolutely not."
--"Only if he carries it on his back."
--"That car will never see a checkered flag. It's going back to the pits on a wrecker."
So, as if there was any doubt, McQueen and Co. had it right all along. Abratti's car retires due to wheel hub or suspension failure such that it's totally out of the race. End of story. End of debate.
it is hardly the end.
read this & you will understand you have got virtually everything you mention incorrect;
especially for wab-3
http://snoreflottado.blogspot.com/
enjoy
& wab-3; have the courage to answer the blog, show it to your racing buds & ask them about the contents of it.
shareabsolutely not end of debate.
have the courage to view the blog especially for you & then we will further discuss a few things.
things like; why your 'racing buddies' did not inform you of the Sports Cars of this era carried spare wheels/tyres?
snoreflottado.blogspot.com
Ah, but of course it is. No need to slum over to some wanker's blog, anyone can just watch the actual film to see that I'm right. The HD remastering of the film is a lovely thing. The wheel spindle or suspension mounts of the right rear wheel clearly break, making it moot whether or not he's carrying a spare. The car was undrivable. Honestly, you've never driven laps at speed in competition, have you? It is a little pathetic to consider that you, who may be a huge aficionado of motorsports but has clearly never participated behind the wheel, would try to talk past me to convince my racing friends of your absurd assertions. I mean, you've never turned a wrench (or spanner, if you like) yourself, have you?
Get over it. Revel, instead, in the knowledge that Steve McQueen, one of the very, very few Hollywood stars who actually knew how to drive, made a lovely and rather realistic semi-documentary about Le Mans.