Chava + her Non-Jewish lover. - Fiddler on the Roof (1971) Discussion

[–] rorysa 14 years ago

I agree with you about the rebellion part, but do we really need ANOTHER scene, besides their initial meeting on the road, to explain her attraction to him?

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[–] Tekawitha 13 years ago

Both come from a very strong religious backgrounds that would forbid premarital relations. Fyedika's Orthodox Catholic parish would gladly accept Chava, and marry them, after she had had some instruction in the Catholic faith. I dont know if she would have had to converted or not before the wedding.

What does bother me is the question of if the marriage banns had been announced from the pulpit before the wedding- if they had been,the news of the upcoming wedding would have been all over the Catholic part of the town, and surely someone would have commented on it to someone in the Jewish part, if only to congratulate, such as the policeman.

~*~~*~

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[–] Clusium 13 years ago

"What does bother me is the question of if the marriage banns had been announced from the pulpit before the wedding..."

Fyedka was Orthodox Christian, not Catholic Christian. So who knows if they did marriage banns in that Church...?

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[–] Tekawitha 13 years ago

the point of marriage banns is to 1)spread the word of the comming wedding, and 2) The purpose of banns is to enable anyone to raise any canonical or civil legal impediment to the marriage, so as to prevent marriages that are invalid. Impediments vary between legal jurisdictions, but would normally include a pre-existing marriage that has been neither dissolved nor annulled, a vow of celibacy, lack of consent, or the couple's being related within the prohibited degrees of kinship.

~*~~*~

"Ooh!Pass the popcorn! This is gonna be good!"

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[–] I_hatenazis 14 years ago

I think that this was more symbolic of tradition vs changing times as each daughter drifts further away.

1. The first marriage bypassed the match maker when the taylor and Tzeitzel informed Tevye that they pledged to marry when they were very young. However, in every other way this was a very traditional marriage. The local Rabbi married them and they both lived in the same village.

2. The second marriage between Perchik and Hodel is even worse because Perchik is leaving and will send for Hodel. Both he and Hodel tell Tevye that they do not seek his permission but only his blessing. However, while Perchik is a Marxist with liberal interpretation of the scriptures he is still a devout Jew.

3. The last marriage, outside the faith, is over the top. It is based soley on love with absolutely no consideration for tradition.

"I Hate Trolls"n

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[–] stevenackerman69 14 years ago

The musical makes it clearer. Chava is being teased by some non-Jews and Fyedka tells them to stop it. He apologizes for their behavior and he makes a comment about seeing her at the booksellers and he offers her a book to read. That sort of sets up their romance.

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[–] jdmartin61 14 years ago

I agree very much with "I hatenazis's" July 13 assessment about the different circumstances surrounding Tevye's daughters' individual marriages. "Tradition!" That was an important theme throughout the story. I have seen the movie only. I can't speak of the stage version.

John, 49

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[–] Tekawitha 13 years ago

actually, you can go back even further into the movie, for hints as to what will happen to each girl. the two older ones are teasing Chava about only being interested in books, and not a husband, and Chava defiantly looks at them, and says 'well, i'll find the best i can!' there, you can see that she is not expecting a match from Yenta that she could bear to live with. when she meets Fyedka, i think she kind of grabs him as the best chance at the sort of person who has similar interests.

~*~~*~

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[–] Clusium 12 years ago

"actually, you can go back even further into the movie, for hints as to what will happen to each girl."

Actually, with the exception of Tzeitel, there are no hints in the very beginning of the movie as to whom the girls will end up with.

"the two older ones are teasing Chava about only being interested in books, and not a husband,..."

In the beginning of the Match Maker, Match Maker scene of the movie, BOTH Chava & Hodel are fantasizing about the possible matches Yente will find for them. Tzeitel basically tells the both of them to "wake & smell the coffee," because the only men Yente will set them up with be the least desirable of any men!!! Hodel hopes to be set up with the rabbi's son, & given how poor their family is, it's unlikely that Yente will arrange such a match.

The interesting thing is, unlike Golde & Tevye, Yente saw the growing chemistry between Tzeitel & Motel, & yet she still chose to set her up with Lazar Wolfe. This just goes to show, that Yente only has her own best interests at heart(that is, who will pay her the highest price), & not that of her potential customers.

(To be fair to Yente though, considering the fact that she is a widow with no children, she is probably even more poor than Tevye & Golde's family, & needs all the money she can get, hence putting prices on her matches over who will love one another in a match.)

Back to Chava:

"and Chava defiantly looks at them, and says 'well, i'll find the best i can!' there, you can see that she is not expecting a match from Yenta that she could bear to live with."

As already noted, she & Hodel were originally fantasizing about what kind of men Yente might set her up with, until, Tzeitel & Hodel tell her that the husband will be old & fat & will be a drunk who will beat her(that might be a reference to the original story by Aleicheim, where Fyedka turns out to be cruel, & hence Chava ends up returning to Tevye).

While it may be a little bit of a foretelling that Chava will find her own husband, it has little to do with her lack of faith in Yente's matchmaking at this point.

"When she meets Fyedka, i think she kind of grabs him as the best chance at the sort of person who has similar interests."

I disagree with that view here. Initially, when she meets Fyedka, after he saves her from being attacked by those anti-semetic jerks, she is a little bit suspicious of him. But, as she becomes more closer with him, she sees the gentle soul that he is, & falls in love with him, in the same way that Tzeitel loves Motel & Hodel loves Perchik. If she was only thinks of a "best chance," she wouldn't go for Fyedka, because of the fact that Fyedka is Christian & not Jewish.

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[–] drivenkick43 12 years ago

The musical makes it clearer. Chava is being teased by some non-Jews and Fyedka tells them to stop it. He apologizes for their behavior and he makes a comment about seeing her at the booksellers and he offers her a book to read. That sort of sets up their romance.

That exact scene is in the movie as well.

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[–] movie_nazi 14 years ago

Chava + her Non-Jewish lover.

I believe the word you are looking for is "Gentile".

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[–] Clusium 14 years ago

"I believe the word you are looking for is "Gentile".

"

Or if you want to be more precise, "Christian."

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[–] movie_nazi 13 years ago

Or if you want to be more precise, "Christian."

Huh?

I do not believe Chava's boyfriend/husband's religious belief was ever mentioned in the film. So I choose to believe he was agnostic like most logical people.

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[–] Clusium 13 years ago

"Huh?

I do not believe Chava's boyfriend/husband's religious belief was ever mentioned in the film. So I choose to believe he was agnostic like most logical people."

a)They were married by the Christian priest, which indicated his own religious background.

b)Back in those days, in Europe (as well as in North America), regardless of your own personal religious convictions, you were considered Christian (or more specifically, Catholic, Protestant, or Orthodox) or Jewish (& probably even among them, Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, or Sephardic, etc.,).

c)How does being agnostic fit in with being logical...?

Now, clearly Fyedka was not bound by the racial or religious prejudices of his day, as he genuinely fell in love with Chava and chose her for his wife. They probably were not even concerned with what religious upbringing their children would have. However, that was precisely why Tevye was 100% opposed to Chava marrying him, & disowned her when she did.

Religious people are very sensitive to interfaith marriages of their children.

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[–] movie_nazi 13 years ago

How does being agnostic fit in with being logical...?

Agnosticism follows the logic that since it is impossible to unequivocally prove whether God exists or not, it is a question that cannot be answered. Therefore the question or whether God exists or not is handled by LOGIC and not faith. Therefore it is by far the most LOGICAL of all choices. Even atheism is less logical because it states that there is unequivocally no God which in order to believe this you take just as big of a leap of faith as believing in God. So yes, agnosticism is by far the most logical.

They were married by the Christian priest, which indicated his own religious background.

That doesn't mean he was religious. They didn't have justice of the peace back then. The only way to get married was through a religious organization. Since Jews did not believe in marrying outside of their faith going to a rabbi was out of the question.

Religious people are very sensitive to interfaith marriages of their children.

As previously stated marriages back then were a religious institution as where it has it's origin if you go back far enough. Therefore it only makes sense that everyone should be of the same faith in order to go through with it. Even to this day some Gentiles convert to Judaism if their significant other demands it. Same with Catholicism as well. The Protestants are the most liberal on this subject as very rarely do they demand their partners to convert.

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[–] Clusium 13 years ago

"Agnosticism follows the logic that since it is impossible to unequivocally prove whether God exists or not, it is a question that cannot be answered. Therefore the question or whether God exists or not is handled by LOGIC and not faith. Therefore it is by far the most LOGICAL of all choices. Even atheism is less logical because it states that there is unequivocally no God which in order to believe this you take just as big of a leap of faith as believing in God. So yes, agnosticism is by far the most logical."

Those who do believe that there is a God, consider it logical to go by faith that He Exists. You see, if it turns out that there is not, then after death, it would be of no consequence, as there would be nothing. Granted, there is a chance, that even if there is a God, but, He was not the One they were taught to believe & worship. However, the person still sincerely believed in that God, and did their best to follow Him sincerely. By contrast, if there is a God, and the person rejected Him all throughout there human life, will have to answer for their actions, in the next.

"That doesn't mean he was religious. They didn't have a justice of the peace back then. The only way to get married was through a religious organization. Since Jews did not believe in marrying outside their faith going to a rabbi was out of the question."

I never said that Fyedka was religious. I said that he was Christian, but, that doesn't mean that he was a religious Christian. As I already mentioned in my last post, back in those days you were either Christian or Jewish, whether or not you were religious. Although I am certain that there may have always been atheists or agnostics, I believe they were pretty much "in the closet," back in those days.

So why did it have to be a Christian priest to marry Fyedka & Chava, if he really wasn't a Christian? Even if the Orthodox rabbi who served the village of Anatekva (sp.) wouldn't have married them, I am certain they could have found a Reform or perhaps even a Conservative rabbi in another Jewish village who would have been more than willing to do the job for them. Or how about this: why didn't Fyedka convert to Judaism in order to save Chava from being disowned by her family? Granted, if he had not already been circumcised, it would have been a "tad painful" for him, but, what will some people not do for love?!?!

"As previously stated marriages back then were a religious institution as where it has it's origin if you go back far enough. Therefore it only makes sense that everyone should be of the same faith in order to go through with it. Even to this day some Gentiles convert to Judaism if their significant other demands it. Same with Catholicism as well. The Protestants are the most liberal on this subject as very rarely do they demand their partners to convert."

Actually, Catholicism does not demand that the partner converts; only that the marriage takes place within a Catholic Church & that the children be raised Catholic. Reason I know this is because my parents were Catholic & Protestant, & my father never converted (although he always attended Holy Mass with us). So I ask again, why didn't Fyedka convert to Judaism for Chava's sake? Here's something else to consider: we never got to know anything about Fyedka's family. So how do we know that his family didn't disown him for marrying a Jewish girl (even though they married in the Church)?

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[–] movie_nazi 13 years ago

Those who do believe that there is a God, consider it logical to go by faith that He Exists. You see, if it turns out that there is not, then after death, it would be of no consequence, as there would be nothing.

If you only "believe" in God because you afraid of the consequences of if it turns out to be true and you did not worship him accordingly then is that really believing? The "believing just in case" is really a CYA and not a true leap of faith and God knows this. Religion and Christianity in particular is based on that no matter how ridiculous and ludicrous the notion of God sacrificing himself in the form of his own son sounds you believe it. No questions. No "Well it sounds silly but what if it IS true, I don't wanna burn in hell for not following" . If this is how you believe then you are not a true believer.

I never said that Fyedka was religious. I said that he was Christian, but, that doesn't mean that he was a religious Christian. As I already mentioned in my last post, back in those days you were either Christian or Jewish, whether or not you were religious. Although I am certain that there may have always been atheists or agnostics, I believe they were pretty much "in the closet," back in those days.

Not true. The story takes place right before the Russian Revolution. Perchik was preaching what sounded much like excerpts (his take on the story of Jacob working for Laban) the Communist Manifesto which amongst other "isms" embodies atheism as Marx called religion "the opium of the people". So many learned people and philosophers were openly non religious at this time. I mean, we are not talking The Spanish Inquisition era here where publicly declaring yourself an agnostic or atheist could quickly win you a trip to at the very least a torture chamber or more than likely burned at the stake.

So why did it have to be a Christian priest to marry Fyedka & Chava, if he really wasn't a Christian? Even if the Orthodox rabbi who served the village of Anatekva (sp.) wouldn't have married them, I am certain they could have found a Reform or perhaps even a Conservative rabbi in another Jewish village who would have been more than willing to do the job for them. Or how about this: why didn't Fyedka convert to Judaism in order to save Chava from being disowned by her family? Granted, if he had not already been circumcised, it would have been a "tad painful" for him, but, what will some people not do for love?!?!

Look, these people lived in a small village not a metropolis. There more than likely was one church and one temple. The temple was out of the question so they went to as church.

Actually, Catholicism does not demand that the partner converts; only that the marriage takes place within a Catholic Church & that the children be raised Catholic. Reason I know this is because my parents were Catholic & Protestant, & my father never converted (although he always attended Holy Mass with us). So I ask again, why didn't Fyedka convert to Judaism for Chava's sake? Here's something else to consider: we never got to know anything about Fyedka's family. So how do we know that his family didn't disown him for marrying a Jewish girl (even though they married in the Church)?

I didn't mean the Church demanded but many times the partner will either demand it or they are willing convert. Met many people that were raised Jewish that converted to Catholicism as a sign of good faith or simply to please their partner.

So I ask again, why didn't Fyedka convert to Judaism for Chava's sake?

This is a good question. Perhaps he didn't love her enough to take on the persecution that the Jews faced at that time. I'm not even sure if the tribe let converts in back then as they very guarded towards Gentiles and with good reason. Maybe he was too selfish to consider her feelings and was only thinking about gaining a wife for himself. The question may never be answered.

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[–] Clusium 13 years ago

"If this is how you believe then you are not a true believer."

I believe it is far greater to take a chance to make firm decision on what you believe then simply saying "I am agnostic," because it makes the most sense. We humans & animals alike breathe in oxygen, and breath out carbon dioxide do we not? And do not plant life breathe in carbon dioxide and breathe out oxygen. Surely, someone willed it to be that all life on earth would live off each other in such a way. Or how about the O Zone Layer? It's key purpose was to protect life on Earth from the harmful effects of the sun. Someone must have placed it there. That is why I choose to believe in God.

Anyway, my point was to respond that agnosticism is the most logical choice as opposed to religious belief or atheism.

Yes, I realize that Perchik was a Marxist. He was also a devout Jew. Not an Orthodox one, mind you. More likely, a Conservative or perhaps even a Reform one, hence his using the Torah(in the movie they call it the Bible, for the sake of the audience)to teach. It is quite possible that Perchik may not have realized that when Communism would take over from the Russian Emperors, it would mean an end to following religion as one would know it. Personally, I can see a person who is either a devout Jew or Christian naievly (sp.) following Marxist ideology, because many of the tenants of it, about helping social conditions fit in with both the Torah and the Bible, & then becoming shocked when their own beliefs are being take away from them.

"Look, these people lived in a small village not a metropolis. There more than likely was one church and one temple. The temple was out of question so they went to as church."

I never said that Anetekva was a metropolis. They could have both eloped together & found a Jewish community which was either Conservative or Reform which could have done the job for them(perform the wedding ceremony).

"This is a good question. Perhaps he didn't love her enough to take on the persecution that the Jews faced at the time."

In that case, why did he marry her in the first place? Even being so much as married to a Jewish person would be enough to get him into trouble. Besides, the movie makes it quite clear that Fyedka was a very kind-hearted soul, who abhored the bigotry in others.

"Maybe he was too selfish to consider her feelings and was only thinking about gaining a wife for himself."

The movie portrays Fyedka as being very kind & gentle, which were the very qualities which made Chave fall in love with him.

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[–] movie_nazi 13 years ago

We humans & animals alike breathe in oxygen, and breath out carbon dioxide do we not? And do not plant life breathe in carbon dioxide and breathe out oxygen. Surely, someone willed it to be that all life on earth would live off each other in such a way. Or how about the O Zone Layer? It's key purpose was to protect life on Earth from the harmful effects of the sun. Someone must have placed it there. That is why I choose to believe in God.

Did you ever think that perhaps that the cosmic soup created by the big bang would by chance eventually spit out a world where everything would be in place for life to be possible? Do you realize how HUGE the universe is? Each galaxy has about 100 billion stars in it AND there are about 100 billion galaxies. Mathematically by chance there should not only be a single planet to produce life but MILLIONS.

The problem with believers most of the time ( and I am not accusing you on being one of these) is that they have not educated themselves enough in the sciences to see what can come about. It's much easier to believe what you have been brainwashed as a child that it is to actually take the time to investigate and see what is possible and what is not. For me it is easier to believe sciences current theory that a supreme being who knows all, sees all, and can be in every single place at the same time and who loves you more than anything else n the universe but sits by idly while babies suffer because it is "part of his plan" . I know, I know. I am only human. Who am I to question God's plan? But even as a lowly human and my limited intellect I still know that letting people suffer when I have the power to stop it IS WRONG. So could there be a God? Maybe but not the one described in the Bible. If anything the ancient Greeks had it closer to the truth. Powerful beings with humanistic flaws. That would apply much more fittingly than this all powerful, all loving, let innocents suffer Judeo-Christian God.

Personally, I can see a person who is either a devout Jew or Christian naievly (sp.) following Marxist ideology, because many of the tenants of it, about helping social conditions fit in with both the Torah and the Bible, & then becoming shocked when their own beliefs are being take away from them.

Well Karl Marx, the writer of The Communist Manifesto saw religion as a way to control society and to keep classes low. The ultimate goal of communism is to completely eliminate classes altogether. So although Perchik was brought up Jewish I did not imagine any love lost if he were forbidden to practice his faith. It seemed that most of the film he was knocking and putting down the traditions that were bore from the Jewish faith.

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[–] Clusium 13 years ago

"Mathematically by chance there should not only be a single planet to produce life but MILLIONS."

I never said that I believe that Earth is the only planet in the entire universe with intelligent life. I believe that it is quite likely that Our Heavenly Father Created intelligent life on other planets as well.

Whenever astronomers are searching for planets with the potential for supporting any kind of intelligent life, they look for ones with certain Earth-like factors: Distance between planet & its sun; water; gases such as oxygen & carbon dioxide, etc.

"It seemed that most of the film he was knocking and putting down the traditions that were bore from the Jewish faith."

I got the view that Perchik was either Conservative or more likely a Reform Jew, rather than Orthodox. I found that he was putting down Orthodox traditions, rather than Judaism as a whole. He was a student of the Torah & used it for teaching his lessons, which indicated to me, that he was still a committed Jew, albeit from a different denomination than Tevye & Hodel.

That was why, although it took a little assertiveness on both Perchik's & Hodel's part, Tevye was eventually won over & gave them both his blessing to marry. Something he would not do for Chava & Fyedka, as they were an interfaith couple (Jewish & Christian).

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[–] movie_nazi 13 years ago

I never said that I believe that Earth is the only planet in the entire universe with intelligent life. I believe that it is quite likely that Our Heavenly Father Created intelligent life on other planets as well.

I guess the good Lord forgot to mention that in the Bible. Are you part of a new denomination? The Church of Jesus Christ's Universe? I would love to hear what E.T.s think of Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons and if they are equally annoyed with them knocking on their doors as I am.

So I guess you believe that Jesus made the ultimate sacrifice not just for those on Earth but for all beings in the universe? Or did he have to do the same thing on other planets as well?

I got the view that Perchik was either Conservative or more likely a Reform Jew, rather than Orthodox.

Look, there are plenty of people who claim to be Christian (*ahem" Catholics *cough*) , who are Catholics by rearing alone. If you ask them do they believe that Jesus is the Son of God and died for our sins they would answer "yes" . But do they go to Church? Do they practice all of things the good Book says a good Christian should do? Do they curse up a storm? Do they fornicate? but they will still claim to be Christian. Perchik was born a Jew and these are his people. Jews are a special ethnic group bound by religion. He grew up Jewish and he isn't going to abandon the people he knows just because he doesn't agree with their antiquated traditions. It really is all speculation what we think Perchik believes in his heart. I do know he's a Marxist and most Marxist are atheist. It's funny that the scene that he is teaching the kids a Bible story he puts a socialistic spin on it.

TRADITION!!

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[–] Clusium 13 years ago

"I guess the good Lord forgot to mention that in the Bible."

No, it just wasn't necessary for Him to mention it for us(at the time the Holy Bible was written)at all.

"So I guess you believe that Jesus made the ultimate sacrifice not just for those on Earth but for all beings in the universe? Or did he have to the same thing on other planets as well?"

I leave that up to God for the way in which He Revealed Himself to His creation on other planets.

"Look, there are plenty of people who claim to be Christian (*ahem" Catholics *cough*), who are Catholics by rearing alone."

Why did you feel the need to put Catholics in brackets & then post 'cough?' Have Catholics also gone & knocked on your door(like the afore-mentioned JWs & Mormons)? Do you have something against Catholics? Here's a newsflash for ya: I am Roman Catholic!!!

And yes, we curse, fornicate, & commit other kinds of sins. That is why we have the Sacrament of Confession.

And one more thing on the analogy of Catholics with Reform Jews such as Perchik: In terms of history, Orthodoxy is, without a doubt, the oldest branch of Ashkenaz Judaism. Reform & Conservative branches came much later. By contrast, Catholics are the oldest branch of Christianity. The various Protestant divisions came much later, including JWs & Mormons(both of which do not even regard themselves as Protestant, & yet without the Protestant Reformation, neither one would probably exist right now).

As for the socialist spin which Perchik puts on the Torah story he read to Tevye's children: Nothing wrong with his interpretation, in fact, there was a quite a bit of truth in what he had taught them there. Jacob slaved a way for his uncle for several years, with ultimate goal of marrying Rachel, but instead, his uncle tricked him into marrying his older daughter first. So Jacob was forced to marry another 7 years before he finally got the bride of his choice, from his uncle.

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[–] movie_nazi 13 years ago

Why did you feel the need to put Catholics in brackets & then post 'cough?' Have Catholics also gone & knocked on your door(like the afore-mentioned JWs & Mormons)? Do you have something against Catholics? Here's a newsflash for ya: I am Roman Catholic!!!

Whoops!

Seriously I meant no offense and thank God ( no pun intended) that they haven't begun a door to door campaign. I was "caught" by JW today as a matter of fact. Anywho, digression aside. It has just been in my life experience that the Christians who most commonly professed their belief in God and did absolutely NOTHING to distinguish themselves in their lifestyles. They still smoked, drank, partied hard, womanized, and NEVER went to church except on special Holidays. While the evangelical type of Christians seem to almost always live a more straight edge life style and go to church 2 or 3 times a week. Maybe it's me growing up in the south but I will tell you this, I am of Hispanic background and all of my extended family claims to be Christian Catholic and they NEVER go to church. I also have a lot of Italian-American friends who live the same life style. I guess they are all going to purgatory huh?

Jacob slaved a way for his uncle for several years, with ultimate goal of marrying Rachel, but instead, his uncle tricked him into marrying his older daughter first. So Jacob was forced to marry another 7 years before he finally got the bride of his choice, from his uncle.

Yes, yes I know the story. I grew up going to Christian schools and went to church twice a week until I was 15 years old. I have heard it from many different Sunday school teachers and other classes. I have NEVER heard that the moral of the story is never trust an employer ( LOL albeit that was pretty funny). Laban was his Uncle and there really shouldn't have been any reason for him not to trust him. I also remember that Jacob ended up bankrupting Laban in the end so maybe it is about communism.

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[–] Clusium 13 years ago

"Whoops!

Seriously I meant no offense and thank God ( no pun intended)..."

LOL!!! Okay. Thanks.

"I was "caught" by JW today as a matter of fact."

Yeah, we have JWs actively working in my neighbourhood too(I've only lived here for a couple of years).

"but I will tell you this, I am of Hispanic background and all of my extended family claims to be Christian Catholic and they NEVER go to church."

Which brings us all the way back to the beginning of our discussion concerning Fyedka. You wondered why I said he was Christian, when his religion was never mentioned in FOTR. It was the timing & place where the story took place. Had FOTR been written about an Orthodox Jewish community living in, let's say, NYC & the mid-90s, & one of the children eloped with a Gentile, without mentioning what that Gentile's religion was, you would be correct in disputing the claim that he was probably Christian. You see, within the last 5 or 6 decades, with families no longer going to Church or Synagogue here in the West, it has produced generations of people growing up with no religious affiliation whatsoever. People either look all on their own for a religion, or continue on "faithless."

"Laban was his uncle and there shouldn't have been any reason for him not to trust him."

Except for the fact that he & his mother pulled similar trick on his own brother, Esau & father, Isaac, by disguising himself as him(the brother)in order to get the blessing their father had intended for Esau. Being a close relative did not merit trust, according to the Book of Genesis, it seems.

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[–] movie_nazi 13 years ago

Except for the fact that he & his mother pulled similar trick on his own brother, Esau & father, Isaac, by disguising himself as him(the brother)in order to get the blessing their father had intended for Esau. Being a close relative did not merit trust, according to the Book of Genesis, it seems.

Yes, that was a nasty trick! Which is probably why God let Laban rip him off the way he did.

Wow! At a time when family should be sticking together! Some things don't change.

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[–] Clusium 13 years ago

"Yes, that was a nasty trick! Which is probably why God let Laban rip him off the way he did."

Yes, what goes around, comes around.

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[–] mspatera 13 years ago

Interesting discussion. Some facts: Reform & Conservative Judaism existed then only in Germany & the U.S., with relatively small numbers. In Eastern Europe at this time, most Jews never even heard of these. Back then, as for most of Jewish history, you were Orthodox or not Jewish. This was particularly true in the Russian Pale of Settlement, where Fiddler takes place.

It was usually illegal to convert to Judaism. A Jew who converted a Christian to Judaism would be thrown in jail or killed. The whole community would be punished severely.

Chava had to convert to Christianity to marry Fyedka. That's why she was considered dead to her family. This is still a common reaction today in some Orthodox circles. They actually perform all the mourning rites as if the convert has died.

The ironic thing was that they moved to Krakow at the end of the movie. Under Nazi law, their descendants would have been considered Jewish by race and would have perished along with all the Jews of Krakow (this is the community depicted in Schindler's List)and over 98% of the 3 million Jews in Poland.

Perchik was brought up the same as the others and had the same religious & educational background, but he knew Russian & read Marx. He would not have considered himself a religious Jew, but an ethnic or cultural Jew. Many such Jews were involved in the Russian Revolution. Many were also subsequently murdered under Stalin (like Trotsky).

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[–] Clusium 13 years ago

Wow. Thanks for the history lesson. Both history & religion are such fascinating topics, & yet so few are willing to learn. So sad.

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[–] Pharaoh-in-de-Nile 13 years ago

"Those who do believe that there is a God, consider it logical to go by faith that He Exists."

Those who believe Elvis is still with us, consider it logical to go by faith that He Exists.

Those who believe in the Tooth Fairy, consider it logical to go by faith that She Exists.

So what? Many people believe in things that are not logically proven. I believe in certain things but what never claim I am being "logical" for it.

"You see, if it turns out that there is not, then after death, it would be of no consequence, as there would be nothing. Granted, there is a chance, that even if there is a God, but, He was not the One they were taught to believe & worship. However, the person still sincerely believed in that God, and did their best to follow Him sincerely."

What if the God was a cruel God (like the Christian Yahweh) that only wants followers to believe in him not just any Old God (which is OK with Hindu Deities and ironically, Allah in many Islamic Schools) then it was not a good idea to follow this faslse deity.

"By contrast, if there is a God, and the person rejected Him all throughout there human life, will have to answer for their actions, in the next."

Again, what if the "ONE TRUE GOD" was as tyrannical as the Christian one (according to most Christian sects) without being the Christian one; in which case you are damned for following a false deity.

Incidentally I hope for mankind that the Yahweh is either not real or a lot different (and more like the original Pre-Judaic version of El who was wise, just, kind and noble accroding to his mythology) from the "Standard" Christian concept. I would hope he is more like Brahman who, according to believers, hears all prayers and is truly the God of all rather than any one faith.

I would say a Deity like the common concept of Yahweh to be very unlikely and yes, illogical. It is illogical to believe this form of God to be the only true one (if God or Gods do exist) over the deities of older and more complex religions like Hinduism, Jainism, Taoism etc which don't comdemn people to hell for finite "crimes" (not that they would call having the wrong idea of God a crime of course as most Eastern Faiths believe that the material world is shrouded in illusion anyway and man can make mistakes) nor demand that only one faith (really a collection now, but all claim to be the true one) is the only path to salvation.

"Nothings gonna change my world!"

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[–] Clusium 13 years ago

"So what? Many people believe in things that are not logically proven. I believe in certain things but would never claim I am being "logical" for it."

Good for you!! I was posting in response to a person who claimed that being an agnostic was the most "logical" choice, & I was answering back in kind. This all came about because he did not realize that people in pre-Soviet Russia, were either Christian, Jewish, or Roma(Gypsy) (though even they would have been Christian as it was the dominant religion in Russia). Nobody at the time would have not been brought up in any particular religion, regardless of personal beliefs.

"What if the God was a cruel God (like the Christian Yahweh) that only wants followers to believe in him not just any Old God (which is Ok with Hindu Deities and ironically, Allah in many Islamic Schools) then it was not a good idea to follow this fasise (sic) deity."

I find it ironic that you call "the Christian Yahweh" as a cruel god, but, leave out the fact that He is also the Jewish God. It is especially ironic because this is right on a message forum about a movie about a fictional Orthodox Jewish community. And yet you focus on Him as the Christian God.

As for Hindu deities: Some of them, such as Kali, can be pretty scary. And Islam teaches that Allah punishes evil doers, just as Judaism & Christianity do too.

"Again, what if the "ONE TRUE GOD" was as tyrannical as the Christian one (according to most Christian sects) without being the Christian one; in which case you are damned for following a false deity."

First of all, not all Christians believe that a person is necessarily Damned to Hell for either being an atheist or of another religion( and of those Christians who do believe so, they also happen to believe that those who belong to a different Christian denomination than themselves will also be damned). Secondly, other religions, such as Islam, have their extremists who believe that non-believers go to Hell for not believing as they do. Atheists believe we all end up becoming nothing after we die, regardless if we had been good or evil.

To answer your question though: I would much rather find out, after I had died, that I belonged to the wrong religion, & worshipped the wrong Deity, in all sincerity, than have denied the existence all throughout my life, & found out that I had been wrong.

Brahman is the Hindu god.

Yes, Hinduism is the oldest religion. So old in fact, they do not even know who even started the religion. By contrast, Christianity & Judaism(along with Islam & Baha'i) DO KNOW who started their beliefs: Abraham did, when God Revealed Himself to him, and all his descendants. None of the gods of Jainism or Taoism are credited with creating anything in the universe or the world, which is probably why it is not necessary in either religion to worship any of their deities. Because nobody has anything to owe these deities. Interestingly, in Hinduism, Brahma, the creator deity is the least worshipped of all the Hindu deities.

One final note:

"really a collection now, all claim to be the one true one"

Very true. The same thing can be said about ALL world religions.

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[–] Clusium 13 years ago

Yes, Fyedka was Christian, according to Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiddler_on_the_Roof_(film)#Act_2

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[–] asoloway 13 years ago

is there any reason that you list types of Jews(Orthodox, Conservative, Reform)and then Sephardic? Did you mean to say for example, Hasidic because my understanding is that Sephardic just means a Jew from Spain (as opposed to say, Ashkenazi.)

"Don't feed the dog from the table from the plate on top of it!"

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[–] Clusium 13 years ago

Ashkenaz are the ones that are divided into Orthodox, Conservative & Reform.

Sephardic are not. I learned that many years ago back when I was volunteering at a Jewish nursing home.

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[–] gribfritz2 13 years ago

Like most logical people. And here is why people of faith can't stand agnostics or atheists. It's not the fact that they don't believe. It's the fact that they all behave like arrogant jerks. I have more respect for a devout anything than a snarky prick.

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[–] movie_nazi 13 years ago

It's the fact that they all behave like arrogant jerks.

Who's behaving like an arrogant jerk? We were having a civilized discussion. If I wanted to be an arrogant jerk I would say all people who believe in God are as senseless as a child who believes in Santa Claus.

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[–] Clusium 13 years ago

She could have been referring to Pharaoh_Impotent's post to me, rather than yours, Movie.

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[–] movie_nazi 13 years ago

She could have been referring to Pharaoh_Impotent's post to me, rather than yours, Movie.

Ahh, well maybe she should learn how this whole posting to discussion thread thing works. If you want to reply to someone's comments, you click the "reply" button on their comment. Don't click the reply button on a random comment. So when I get an email stating "someone has replied to your comment" I think just that. That's why I do the whole quote thingy to not leave any doubt who I am talking to.

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[–] Clusium 13 years ago

I see. I don't get emails from IMDB telling me when someone has replied to a post I have made. I only find out when I return to the message forum.

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[–] movie_nazi 13 years ago

Yeah, it's an option you can choose on your profile. You wouldn't believe how I get posts YEARS after I posted something. I'll see the email stating "such and such posted to your discussion about [insert post title here]". Sometimes I have to go back and read my own posts it had been so long and sometimes I won't even think what I thought about something back then. I'm tellin' ya, never say never.

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[–] gribfritz2 13 years ago

And you acted like an arrogant jerk again with your Santa Claus statement. So I proved my point there about your true nature. I don't think there's anything civilized about belittling another person's beliefs. Perhaps change your name from movie_nazi to religion_nazi.

And I was replying to you in the first place after all so enjoy the e-mail you received notifying you. And I'm not a she. Enjoy the rest of your attack on anything religious just for the sake of attacking anything religious. Perhaps there should be a religion built around you since you seem to feel so superior to all others.

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[–] Clusium 13 years ago

"And I'm not a she."

Sorry. I don't know why I referred to you in the feminine sense, gribfritz, when I was posting to movie_nazi.

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[–] noplay 13 years ago

Obviously like any law, Jewish laws/tradition are on different levels.

All the other daughters who married outside of the match-matcher, this is not a big deal. I'm fairly certain matchmatching is literally "traditional", there is no Torah basis for it and Orthodox Jews rather go through a matchmaker but it doesn't work out it's not a big deal.

However, marrying a non-Jew is a serious offense in Judaism. That is why it was totally unacceptable.

This restriction does make a whole lot of sense. Judaism is a religion that managed to survive for many millennium and this is while having a prohibition from actively proselytizing (you can however convert to Judaism, but rabbis/Jews aren't suppose to encourage you to do so, you have to do it on your on volition). If intermarriage was acceptable, the Jewish culture and religion would probably dissipate entirely after a few centuries. Marrying within the faith has been the thing that kept the Jewish culture together for so long.

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[–] Clusium 13 years ago

Actually, a lot of religions forbid interfaith marriage. Not just Judaism. And as you noted, it makes sense. If you want to pass down your faith to your children, it is better to marry someone of the same faith as you, or at least, very similar to it. Otherwise, the children may grow up confused as to what religion to follow.

Problem is, love knows no religion, & it is a very powerful drug. When you think you found the "One," you don't think about the problem it will cause for the children.

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[–] 13 years ago

[deleted]

[–] jefgg 11 years ago

How old was Chava supposed to be?

Chava and Fyedka's courtship seemed very brief. Was that the norm back then?

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[–] Clusium 11 years ago

How old was Chava supposed to be?

The movie doesn't say(I don't know about the stage musical though). However, my guess would be probably either 16 or 17, as Tzeidel (sp.) was 19, in the beginning of the movie.

Chava and Fyedka's courtship seemed very brief. Was that the norm back then?

Probably not the norm for a brief relationship. More likely, because of the fact that Fyedka was a Christian, he & Chava probably had to see one another in secret, because of the obvious religious prejudice of both families. Don't forget, the first time Chava meets Fyedka is when he saves her from the hooligans in the corn field, & that was just before Tzeidel's marriage to Motel.

The next time we see them together is after Hodel leaves to go join Perchik in the Siberian prison camp, & that was *SEVERAL* months after they first met in the corn field.

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