When Chava Married The Christian.... - Fiddler on the Roof (1971) Discussion

[–] Doc80 13 years ago

Well, even by the end even he was kind of coming around to accepting it by saying "God be with you" or whatever he said when they were packing to leave the village. At this point in time though, in pretty much every society in the world in all religions, whatever the Father/Husband decided, would be done.

Even today, Jews will get disowned by their families if they marry outside the faith.

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[–] Clusium 13 years ago

I know Chava got temporarily disowned by her family(her father in particular), but, I was speculating about her HUSBAND'S family.

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[–] Doc80 12 years ago

Oh I'm sorry. I would assume since the priest married them that she agreed to convert or actually did convert (unlikely because it is quite an ordeal to get through and does take some time). So because she would become a member of the Eastern Orthodox Church that his family would welcome her in.

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[–] Clusium 12 years ago

I don't know if whether or not she converted from Orthodox Judaism to Orthodox Christianity.

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[–] Doc80 12 years ago

I'm pretty sure she would have to, or at least take the steps to start the process, before the priest would marry them, that's my point.

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[–] Clusium 12 years ago

Okay.

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[–] leader-7 12 years ago

She most certainly did not convert. They were considered outcasts at the time, for each staying with his/her own religion. and eventually, Tevye, who was uneducated, but a forward thinking man, changed his feelings about her marriage to a gentile, and welcomed her back.

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[–] Clusium 12 years ago

In the end of the movie he forgave her interfaith marriage, however, he & the rest of the family(with the noted exception of Hodel & Perchik)all went to the USA, while Chava & Fyedka went to Poland.

Who knows Tevye ever saw them again.

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[–] MetFanMac 12 years ago

Don't remember how it is in movie but I know that in the original story she does convert.

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[–] Doc80 12 years ago

Where is the proof that they were outcasts? All we saw was Tevye's reaction and the Constable even says that he thought his family would be spared because of his daughter's marriage. That leads me to believe that she converted and was accepted into his family. Besides, as I stated above, they were married by the priest and he wouldn't have performed the ceremony unless she converted or agreed to be converted, though more likely she would have to convert before the ceremony.

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[–] angelosdaughter 12 years ago

Tevye, in my opinion, never accepted Chava's marriage. His sotto voce "God be with you" was two things: his reluctant acknowledgement that he still loved his daughter even though her repudiation of her faith made her dead to him in the tradition of that faith, and it was something he couldn't resist doing, knowing that it was unlikely he would see her again. It is similar to his prayer for Hodel as he watches the train pull away. Tevye did not mean for Chava to hear it. Tzeitel, shouting repeats her father's prayer, so that her sister and Fyedka can hear it, allowing her and her husband to part from the family with the knowledge of the father's love, in spite of everything. Tevye's reverie "Little Bird" after he finds out about his youngest daughter's marriage is another heartbreaking moment in the movie. He is torn in the face of Chava's plea that he accept them, but he has finally found the stumbling block (her repudiation of their Jewish faith, the cornerstone of his existence) that will part him forever from this daughter. Watching the daughters leave one by one for husbands in his reverie is something I think makes all parents feel a bit melancholy.
My father had an Irish Catholic friend who disowned his daughter for marrying a Protestant. Papa never could understand that.

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[–] Clusium 12 years ago

"My father had an Irish Catholic friend who disowned his daughter for marrying a Protestant."

Maybe the daughter married in the Protestant Church. My family's back ground is Irish on our mother's side, & English on our father's. My father was Anglican, but, he married my mother in the Catholic Church, & raised us all Catholic.

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[–] angelosdaughter 12 years ago

Yes, that is what happened, but my father loved his children unconditionally. He did not understand this man because he could not imagine anyone disowning his children.

"..sure you won't change your mind? Why, is there something wrong with the one I have?"

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[–] rwsmith29456 11 years ago

There is scriptural precedence for Jews not marrying outside the faith. The Old Testament repeats this again and again. There is no scriptural precedence. however, that forbids Gentiles from marrying Jewish Women. Though they may have been horrified by their son marrying a 'Christ Killer" (as is stated in the movie) they probably would have accepted it. It doesn't say whether either of them converted to the other's faith.

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[–] Clusium 11 years ago

There is no scriptural precedence, however, that forbids Gentiles from marrying Jewish Women.

Of course there wouldn't be, as the Old Testament (or Torah, as it is known in Judaism) would have been for Jews only, for the first 1,000 years. Whether other cultures forbade marrying Jews or any other tribe outside their culture, I don't know.

"Gentile" is not synonymous with "Christian." All non-Jews are considered Gentile. Buddhists are Gentiles. Hindus are Gentiles. Wiccans are Gentiles, etc.

Though they may have been horrified by their son marrying a "Christ Killer" (as it is stated in the movie) they probably would have accepted it.

Were they to be horrified by their son marrying a "Christ Killer," then they might have disowned him for marrying her, except for the fact that they married in their faith.

It doesn't say whether either of them converted to the other's faith.

No, but, it does say that they married in the Christian Church, there in Anatekva. Besides that, on another topic thread on this forum, someone taught me that it meant that she would have had to convert to his faith, in order to be able to do that.

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[–] bens33 11 years ago

In the book "Tevye and his Daughters", from whence this movie was taken, it's pretty obvious that Chava converted to Christianity. In the book, the Priest tells Tevye that Chava has come under his charge and custody, and that she has reached out for "a new life".

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[–] Clusium 11 years ago

I've never read Tevye and His Daughters, but, from what I understand, Chava eventually left her husband because he was abusive to her. The lines from Matchmaker, Matchmaker, where Tzeital & Hodel sing "He'll beat you ever night..." are probably a shout out to that version of the story.

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[–] PillowRock 11 years ago

It doesn't say whether either of them converted to the other's faith.

The fact that they were married in the Russian Orthodox church (which is the only way that the priest would be able to definitively answer Golda's question) implies that Chava had agreed to convert ...... at least outwardly to the priest. Otherwise, a priest in one of those old, conservative denominations wouldn't have given her the sacrament of marriage.

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[–] croak-1 8 years ago

I think I remember reading somewhere that if a Jewish man marries a Gentile, their children aren't considered to be Jews. But if a Jewish woman marries a Gentile, their children are considered to be Jews.

Maybe that's because of the fact that it's the women in the family who uphold the religious traditions moreso than the men?

I think it's kinda like Jesus' lineage being based on Mary's family line, and not Joseph's (although we all know that Joseph wasn't the biological father of Jesus. And, of course, both Mary and Jesus were Jews anyway.)

Can anyone confirm or deny?

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[–] ncdwbmk6 8 years ago

I think I remember reading somewhere that if a Jewish man marries a Gentile, their children aren't considered to be Jews. But if a Jewish woman marries a Gentile, their children are considered to be Jews.

Maybe that's because of the fact that it's the women in the family who uphold the religious traditions moreso than the men?

According to Jewish law, which is based on the Torah (Bible), a Jew is someone who either has a Jewish mother, or who has undergone a legal conversion to Judaism.

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[–] jefgg 9 years ago

They probably weren't disowned, only hated.

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[–] beijingpearl2003 9 years ago

To marry Fietka in Russia, Poland, Lithuania, Eastern Europe pretty much anywhere, the usual law was that she must convert to the Russian Orthodox/Catholic/Christian faith or the marriage is not valid--they were married by the priest after all. This is a big point that is not spoken of in the movie, but it is also the reason for Tevye's horror and rejection of her and even Golde's sorrow--they knew it had to be this way. Also, in this part of the world at least, if Hodel tried to convert back to Judaism later, say if her husband died, she would not be allowed to and in fact would be killed. PRetty heavy deal to add to an already emotional and awful situation in the film.

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[–] Clusium 9 years ago

Also, in this part of the world at least, if Hodel tried to convert back to Judaism later, say if her husband died, she would not be allowed to and in fact would be killed.

That's pretty interesting, because I read online, that in the original story by Sholem Aleichem, that Hodel did leave her Christian husband & returned to her family, because her husband was abusive to her (He'll beat you everynight was probably a shout-out to that original version).

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[–] bens33 9 years ago

You're right. Most Jews maintain that a Jew always remains a Jew, even if they convert to a different religion. They can always do "teshuvah" (repent), and be accepted back. You're also right about the book's storyline. Chava was accepted back after she left her husband. (It doesn't exactly say that Fyedka abused Chava, but it was strongly hinted at.)

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[–] Clusium 9 years ago

I think I read somewhere that her Christian husband was named something else in the original story. They probably changed his name, because of the fact that they were making him into a genuinely nice person in the movie (& I believe in the play too).

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[–] bens33 9 years ago

I believe the producers changed his name slightly because his Russian name was not pronounceable in English (Chvedka).

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[–] Clusium 9 years ago

That's pretty interesting. Still, I am glad they chose to make the Christian husband & genuinely nice guy, as opposed to the wife abuser in the original story, for a few reasons:

1)It's good to have different dimensions of people, rather than have everybody on what one side all good, & everybody else on the other side all bad.

2)Of all the marriage taboos broken in Fiddler that were broken, Chava's one was the most challenging of all, because of the fact that she married a Christian (Tzeitel made her own choice of husband, as opposed to the one the matchmaker made for her & her parents accepted; Hodel chose a Jew from a Reform or Conservative denomination, as opposed to Orthodox). I know Jews do not like interfaith marriages, especially Orthodox. However, neither do other religious groups either. Unfortunately, it happens sometimes, because love knows no religion, race, or any other culture.

My own brother is married to a woman from a different religion (Christian & Hindu).

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