MovieChat Forums > Little Big Man (1970) Discussion > Allegory for Vietnam War?

Allegory for Vietnam War?


In watching Little Big Man,I could not help but think Arthur Penn intended the movie to be an allegory criticizing the Vietnam War; i.e. an indigenous population fighting for the right of self-determination against a seemingly unstoppable foreign invader bent on conquest and destruction. Any thoughts?

P.S. The *beep* massacre scenes are the most emotionally devastating I have ever watched, especially the part where Little Big Man watches helplessly as Sunshine and his son are murdered while they try to flee to safety.

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I don't think it was. The book the movie was based on was published in 1964 and the first US combat troops didn't land in Vietnam until 1965.

The massacre is most certainly either based on the Sand Creek Massacre in which Chivington attack a peaceful Cheyenne camp, or the *beep* Massacre in which Custer attack the Cheyenne, or it was based on both. In both cases the head Cheyenne chief was Black Kettle who died in the *beep* Massacre.

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It was the *beep* massacre because Little Big Man refers to it when Custer asks him whether he should attack the village on the Little Big Horn. I remember his saying something like "this isn't the *beep* General, those are Cheyenne brave and Sioux down there"

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I am trying to work out why the word W a s h i t a is being beeped - a gather it is because of the middle letters.

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Thanks for clarifying. I was beginning to think you two were discussing some Quentin Tarantino version of Little Big Man.

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I think it became an allegory for Nam simply because it was made in the 70s during the height of that war, but it was not originally intended to be so.

Dini

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Yes, I certainly never linked the two and I saw it in theaters in 1970. One can link anything that involves killing civilians, I suppose, but I never got that this was anything but an indictment of us slaughtering the Indians. Those scenes are among the most realistic ever depicted and are used by native school teachers to demonstrate to their classes what genocide looked like in person.

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The conflict in Vietnam was going on years before 1964 with the French and then the US stepping in. My father (Air Force) was killed in Vietnam in 1963. The Vietnam Memorial in DC has names of Americans killed there in 1961.

Nonetheless, the fact that parallels can be seen is not surprising even if it was not intended by the author. The invasion of others' land and killing off the natives is an unfortunate common behavior or human "civilizations" throughout history.

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If memory serves, Pauline Kael focused almost exclusively on the Vietnam metaphors in her review of lbm. This review can probably be found in one of her books, either Going Steady or Deeper Into Movies. In my opinion, it's got to be more than a coincidence that Sunshine is portrayed by Asian-born actress Aimee Eccles. On the other hand, when I was in college, lbm author Thomas Berger visited my creative writing class and was asked by my professor about this subject. Berger replied that he didn't intend lbm to be a Vietnam allegory, and that he had low regard for writers who use the historical fiction genre to comment on current events. So I guess Arthur Penn and screenwriter Calder Willingham were using a little artistic license.

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[deleted]

I've heard about the parallels with Vietnam and I wouldn't be surprised.

In Martin Scorsese's documentary about American movies, he brought up an interesting point about Arthur Penn...he said he admires Penn's "anti" movies...Little Big Man was his "anti-Western," Bonnie and Clyde his "anti-gangster" movie, and so on.

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[deleted]

Good question...I remember him mentioning a movie Penn did with Marlon Brando, but can't remember the name. I'll have to dig up the DVD and get back to you.

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Sounds like The Missouri Breaks, an anti-Western directed by Penn starring Marlon Brando and Jack Nicholson. If you're looking to have a deeply disappointing movie-watching experience, give it a try.

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[deleted]

Agreed. Leonard Maltin rates Missouri Breaks a BOMB, but I would probably toss it a two-star rating, just for the cast.

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[deleted]

I saw Arthur Penn speak at Brandeis University in the spring of 1971 and he was asked directly about this. He said he did not intend Little Big Man to be an allegory for the war on Vietnam. He said he used Asian actors for some of the Cheyenne charachters in part because the very idea was suggested in Thomas Berger's book of the same name. That having been said, the war in Vietnam was raging when this film was being made and Penn had no need for such an allegory - any more than Peckinpah in THE WILD BUNCH - since everybody in the film-going world was going to make that association anyway.

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"The Missouri Breaks" is a fine movie. The violence gets a bit heavy at times, and many viewers may find its air of moral ambiguity very disconcerting, but it's surely not a bit more morally muddied than "Bonnie and Clyde," less so in fact. I like the way it merges an overall tone of gritty realism with a few scenes that seem fantastic to the point of being barely plausible-- much as happens in "Little Big Man," but with more of a film noir feel to it.

"Missouri Breaks" is an underrated almost-classic that has stood up well to the test of time. In its own intensely quirky way, it's every bit as good as "Little Big Man" or "Bonnie and Clyde."

"I don't deduce, I observe."

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I thought of this with Custer's repeated "You're trying to create a reversal of a Custer decision" comments. Very similar to the US Government's stubborn insistence on the suicide mission in Vietnam.

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I remember seeing the film in theaters when it was first released, and everyone at the time felt it was somehow linked to Viet Nam.

Even if Penn did not intend LBM to be in any way about Viet Nam, the war and the political assasinations already had a strong emotional impact on the country and what Hollywood was producing.

It became acceptable - and almost expected - to question the US military and establishment in movies ranging from the bloody western Soldier Blue to thrillers like 3 Days of the Condor and the Parallex View.

At the very least, LBM was truly suited to the times in which it was made.

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I took a course on Native American History and we watched 3 movies from 3 different eras. One I think was called The Searchers from the 1950s, LIttle Big Man from the 1970s and Dances With Wolves from the 1990s. The idea was that each film showed how our portrayal of Native Americans changed. In the 1950s, pre civil rights era, they were displayed as savages with cowboys as the heroes. The 1970s saw a shift towards seeing them as an oppressed minority and by the 1990s the view grew even more sympathetic. I don't see it as a Vietnam metaphor so much as a post civil rights era view on it. It was then we first began to more widely acknowledge what we did then was wrong.

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not the movie was/is an allegory to the Vietnam War but the Vietnam War nearly turned out to become an allegory to the "American Indian" genocide imho.
Read Bradbury's "Martian chronicles" if you look for a true allegory: white American settlers on Mars get the chance to live together with "natives" (i.e. the "Martians" who have a much higher developed culture) and mess it all up again. This time, no one survives except one single family while earth gets destroyed in a global nuclear war. They have to abandon a way of life that was wrong (= exploitation of everything) - last chance.

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TCM has been showing a promo for the film all month, in which Arthur Penn says he was thinking of the Holocaust when planning and filming LBM.

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Definitely. It's about the moral bankruptcy of white society and white privilege in America.

Just as the Viet Cong and the Black Panthers were romanticized by jaded white youth, so too are the Cheyenne warriors romanticized here. Through Jack, corrupt, sadistic, egomaniacal, imperialistic and bigoted white masculinity is traded in for dignified and spiritual Cheyenne masculinity.

You could call it a countercultural Western.

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