Any sympathy for the father?


I understand Gene's feelings completely in wanting to break away from his arrogant, self-centered and emotionally distant father, but did anyone else have a bit of sympathy for the old man at the end? How about before the end? Certainly there are much worse fathers, in film and in real life. Of course, there are much better ones as well.

This is a provocative film precisely because the father is not a villain – nor is the son a hero. They are just two very different souls who never found common ground and were permanently scarred because of it.

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Absolutely.

Part of the reason this film moves me is that Tom reminds me of several people in my life -- people I have loved.

Unlike Gene, I didn't need to face having a parent like that, so it wasn't as life-shaping and traumatic for me.

The person who was the closest parallel to Tom in my life was my grandmother. Same generation, similar situation of needing to face adult responsibilities very early, and care for her siblings. She also faced other major tragedies and challenges -- an invalid husband, surviving a serious train accident (and probably life-long pain from it, although she didn't complain much), supporting her family through the Depression, seeing her sons go off to war.

We all adored and admired her - she was the family hero. We also only saw her for visits. :-)

After a life of independence, she agreed to come live with us. And, on a day-to-day basis, she was very difficult to be with. While not the slyly insulting martinet that Tom was, and not as self-aggrandizing, she couldn't stop being The One In Charge -- understandable, after all of those years, but tough to deal with.

Like Tom, she had her script, like tapes that would run automatically, often in place of listening to anything that was being said to her, of making an attempt to understand the other person's point of view.

Did I still love her, often like her, and have sympathy for her? Sure. So did my parents, the generation in between, who had more reason to be frustrated by her.

But, besides being difficult to deal with on a daily basis, there is also the aspect of the external image a person like that has. That's why Gene's wry response, when Peggy says she thinks Tom is charming, is one of my favorite moments in the film. It says so much about how he has faced this all of his life.

He and his sister know Dad has his problematic side. But, to everyone else, he is The Hero, and a charming story-teller to boot (the stories are charming when one hasn't heard them hundreds of times, and known the "this is my ritualistic way of forming my identity" impetus behind them).

Complaining about The Charming Hero, unlike complaining as most people might about a troublesome relative, is pretty much verboten -- it's hard to find a sympathetic ear! So, the frustration can build up.

But it doesn't minimize the love and gratitude one can still feel for someone like that.

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Thank you for the reply, and I apologize for my late acknowledgement.

I see much of Tom in many of my relatives who have passed on, and while I can understand Gene's frustration with his father, that final scene illustrates the dangers of building up frustrations and forcing the issue when they reach the boiling point.

Gene and his father, of course, were of two very different generations – the father as the stoic breadwinner and head of household, and the son as a more sensitive soul who seeks a deeper connection with his family. In many ways, these differences appear to be practically irreconcilable. Did Gene really expect his elderly father to come around at the end, talk about his feelings and embrace a newfound sensitivity?

I'm not one of discuss family specifics on the Internet, but I find it's usually best to work around these difficult family dynamics rather than trying to convert others to your side. Maybe that's a cynical or defeatist view, but ultimately I believe we should settle with what common ground we have, thin though it may be. In confronting his father about their relationship, Gene cast a very dark shadow on his father's remaining years – and the rest of his own life as well.

So yes, I do have sympathy – or perhaps more specifically empathy – for the father.

It would be interesting to see an update of this film now that Gene Hackman is old enough to play the father.

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Sure, I'm sympathetic, but I wouldn't want to be around him.
That said: one of the best things about this film is how it shows that the banalities of the everyday create the most conflict in these types of relationships. The essential problem is that there are no problems. The film doesn't write them off to the trendy generational politics of the day as being the only reason. What gives this film such an uncomfortable wonderfulness.

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Woah, you've actually seen this, Zurichpoet? I'm severely impressed!

As I said in a later post, I should have said "empathy" instead of "sympathy." And you are right about there not being any "problems," at least not outstanding ones except those that exist in the son's mind. It was just a difficult combination between the overly sensitive son and the overly insensitive father. Welcome to family life.

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I have no problem at all liking and feeling for his father. The man wasn't a monster; he might've been a bit of a bore at age 80, but then, a lot of people a lot younger are pretty freaking boring!

It's never hard to be nice to someone who is elderly and needs a little patience. In fact, I find a lot of older people to be fascinating with great stories.

It's a shame Hackman's character was still such a child. If he could've stopped being such a needy child, he might've found his father worth knowing on his dad's terms.

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Excellent points, Simplemines, and I agree it's unfortunate that Hackman's character never really grew up. I could see him having a lot of regrets about how he treated his father after Tom died – regrets that he would never overcome.

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Strongly strongly strongly disagree that Gene hadn't grown up. He was in a lot of pain bc he grew up with an emotionally absent father -- just as Tom was in a lot of pain bc his father had been physically absent -- but being in a lot of pain, and still hoping to have a relationship with one's PARENT (the person who MADE and SHAPED you), is not at all the same as not having grown up.

And, wanting said relationship is normal -- it's not "needy." Labelling it "needy" is a bit aggressive and is the sort of damaging thing that Tom did. We're human; we're hardwired to bond with our parents, and any deviation from healthy bonding causes tremendous problems. Humans have needs; that isn't the same as being "needy." (Is Gene "needy" because he feels hunger and thirst?)

Plus, the fact that Gene had no intention of deviating from his plans (marry, move to California) shows that he was an autonomous adult.

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I agree that Gene is portrayed as a mature, complex person.

It's not always easy to do this in a film or play, in which impressions have to be made quickly, and focus returned to the main theme. But here are some indications of Gene's maturity, and even ways the script covers any misconception viewers of all types might have that he's a weakling, in basic "here's a man" movie shorthand:

- he is not financially dependent on anyone.
- he was a Marine who served at Iwo Jima.
- when his father boasts about the above, Gene clearly doesn't need his war service to define him, or to be portrayed as a hero.
- he has suffered terrible loss, in the death of his first wife.
- he doesn't dwell on that loss, or use her memory to gain sympathy.
- he doesn't hide his flaws and mistakes, or try to project a perfect image.
- he talks to people honestly, and says what he feels.
- he cares about his mother and sister -- much more than his father does.
- he has no macho issues about moving to where his fiancee already has a life and a career, and, while concerned about the details, has no fear of change.
- he is concerned about his move affecting his father.
- despite the crappy way his father treats him, he is willing to have Tom come live near him.
- he is horrified at the idea of his father being in the care facility he looks at.
- he continues to care for his father after their blow-up, as the epilogue tells us.

In general, I think the film conveys his attempt to reach his father emotionally not as that of a child who desperately needs approval, but that of a man who has matured, and is still sort of astounded that his father never has. He keeps wanting to give his father a chance to act like a fully-formed person.

Tom is the one trapped in the past, and often still reacting like a petulant child. We can admire him for supporting his mother and sister, going on to a life of local importance, and supporting his family financially. But, as the film shows us over and over, he is the one who never matured past a certain point:

- he can only deal with people by presenting his Official Self -- full of oft-repeated stories, like tapes that run without any effort on his part.
- those stories are almost always about himself as a victim, a hero, or both.
- his reaction to his wife's death, when he is not being his Official Self, is to go off into a reverie about a girl he courted in his youth, or his adoration of his own mother, and her death -- he seems quite obsessed with things he never got past, never processed, from his own childhood and youth. It's not just nostalgia, or one sadness leading to another -- it really is portrayed as unfinished business, I think.
- he never seems to show any real grief for his wife, as herself -- it's all about him.
- he is unable to tolerate not getting his own way, or delay his own gratification -- he wants to go to the Rotary, he goes, never mind that his wife is seriously ill in the hospital.
- he's a bigot, dumping his daughter from his life (and his wife's) because she married a Jewish man (I see the "if you're not in our group, you're bad" mindset of bigotry as being childish).
- when challenged in any way, he tries phony cajoling very briefly, then goes straight to insult and guilt-mongering -- he doesn't seem to have learned any of the adult nuances of conversation.
- he admits no weakness, except in his self-pitying reveries and when he can get something out of it.
- he is much needier than Gene -- he wants to control his son, and no amount of respect, gratitude or actual help is ever enough.
- his last line, about living his whole life so he could look any man in the eye and tell him to go to hell, is like the defensive cry of a toddler in a tantrum, or a teenage gang member -- it is not the comfortable statement of a man in his 80s who knows he has lived a good life and doesn't need to prove anything to anyone.

That doesn't change the fact that my answer to the question at the top of this thread is still "yes." I have plenty of sympathy for someone like Tom. I don't think he's a villain -- some combination of his nature and his experience made him limited.

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Marvelously put.

I'll reiterate something I said in another thread: to my mind, Tom's worst character flaw, and what poisons his relationship with his son, is his belief that he is entitled to love. He thinks he can command it...he never seems to do much to earn it.

After all, what causes the final breach between himself and Gene? The fact that his son--an ADULT, mind you--wants to start a new life elsewhere with the woman he loves! Most parents...well, they'd miss their kids, but they know that the kids have to lead their own lives sooner or later. Tom treats it as a personal affront.

Then there's the bit that kind of sticks in my craw...that last Thanksgiving of Carol's life that Gene describes. Tom made it (as you said above) all about him-- "our day is nothing without you, couldn't you just stop in for a few minutes?" If I had a son whose wife was dying, my own Thanksgiving would be the LAST thing on my mind. I'd be asking him what I could do to help him. I don't think it matters that much that I'm female...any father worth his salt ought to do the same as a mother.

It isn't that I don't feel any sympathy for Tom...he is a rather tragic character. As you said, he's not a man who can look back on a life well lived and with no regrets. It's all due to those fatal character flaws.

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I imagine that what makes a person turn out like Tom varies from one person to another.

I'm sure that needing to keep putting one foot in front of the other, surviving huge hardship, can lead to setting a lot of feelings aside.

I think that was a lot of what made my grandmother who she was, and we were all grateful for the heroic things she did and the strong, loving person she was.

But there is another aspect that I see in the character of Tom, and in a few people I've known (not in my grandmother, I'm happy to say!) -- narcissism.

I know a flashy, obviously self-centered character is what we usually think of when we picture a narcissist. But I think that narcissism is present in people like Tom. They may not be vain about looks or riches, but it's there.

All of their stories are about their being the hero, the victim or the only person around with any sense. Nothing is ever their fault. They never seem to get enough from others -- they always need more. They act like the boss when control suits them, and a helpless unloved baby when denied.

They take some responsibility (especially when they can get credit for it), serve others when it works for them, take stands and make grand statements, and can be charming, flattering, generous and even briefly self-effacing, until those around them fail to toe their line.

If their ideas and projects for directing others' lives don't meet with instant applause, they get petulant, hurtful or just move on.

And they never really listen.

As I said in an earlier post, because they are the helper/hero/public servant type, with a charming facade, the people they hurt get no sympathy from anyone who has not yet experienced the darker side of their personality.

Do I still have sympathy for Tom and the people I've known who are like that? Yes, absolutely. They seem to be trapped in a cycle they can't break, even when someone reaches out to them or challenges them.

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I found the father rather sympathetic throughout. Although his children thought of him as a problem, I think that he did actually make himself the least of a nuisance that he could possibly make himself to be. It wasn't his fault that the son felt so guilty about leaving him in his old age and bereavement. The father was actually trying to be as independent as he possibly could IMO.

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I watched this movie today, having dvr'd it a few months back. I had forgotten how powerful it was, and the absolutely brilliant acting from Hackman and Douglas.

While far from identical, there were a number of Tom's qualities present in my father. He was self-employed and worked an inordinate amount of time to be successful. When he got there, his life was centered around my mother and the two of them enjoying life. I never sang for my father--but I did work for him in high school and summers home from college. As the oldest of three and only son, I believe he thought his job was to teach me life's harder lessons. He did that. It wasn't pleasant and there were not a lot of Ward and the Beaver moments--we did have our share of the final scene in this movie. He was also my harshest critic.

Like Tom, he outlived my mother, but only for a few months. In those months, there was the temptation to clear the air, but his health and my sense of propriety prevented it. That is something I am proud of, and something there in me despite my upbringing. Like Tom, he felt his mission was to provide for us and teach us (me, anyway) to prepare for adulthood.

When he passed, it was in his bedroom, in his home. I was holding his hand at the moment he died. While it was not "love" as most define it, it was love nonetheless. Like Gene in the movie, nobody can say the word "Father" without it mattering to me.

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Thank you for your beautiful post. I think your father was very fortunate to have you at his side at such a crucial time, regardless of whether he was able to express it. We should all be so fortunate, but few of us will be.

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FWIW, I recently heard John Mahoney speak about his acting career, and he said that playing the father in a stage version of INSfMF was one of the hardest roles of his life because he had trouble finding any redeeming qualities in the character.

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From an actor as superb as John Mahoney, that's saying a lot! Mahoney appears to be a very likable person, so I could see how he would have trouble taking on the identity of the father here. I would love to see this onstage.

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Don't know about sympathy, but Melvyn Douglas's performance is certainly strong enough to make one 'understand' the old codger. At any rate, his was by far the most interesting character in the film.



"facts are stupid things" Ronald Reagan

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