Daughters -- no sons - Mary Tyler Moore (1970) Discussion

[–] OnanTheBarbarian (12144) 2 years ago

Maybe Mary was putting something in their coffee?

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[–] CarolTheDabbler (576) 2 years ago

That is (if you'll pardon the expression) conceivable. However Lou's daughters were already adults by the time Mary applied for a job at WJM. Murray's daughters are younger, so one or more of them might have been born after Mary started working there -- though you'd think we would have seen Murray handing out cigars or something. Ted's daughter would be a definite possibility, though.

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[–] OnanTheBarbarian (12144) 2 years ago

Good one! Well my general theory would be that Mary was an undercover psychopath.

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[–] CarolTheDabbler (576) 2 years ago

Addendum: In "Ted Over Heels," we learn that Chuckles the Clown has a daughter.

Note however, that Chuckles was played by at least three different in-universe actors (some of whom we see, while others are merely mentioned). Only one of them was known to have a child, the aforementioned daughter, Betty Bowerchuck, who dates Ted for a while. But for all we know, Betty has seventeen brothers.

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[–] [email protected] (5926) 2 years ago

Getting off topic for a moment, I always thought it was odd that Betty Bowerchuck wasn't at her father's funeral, "Chuckles Bites the Dust". Of course you could say she was there but not mentioned. But since Arlene Golonka played Betty when Ted dated her, it would've been a nice touch to see her. And I noticed (I always notice the little weird details), Mary and the rest of the WJM staff had the front seats. Doesn't the deceased person's family usually sit up front?

Back to daughters, I thought it was interesting that a tough hard drinking newsman like Lou Grant lived in an all female household. At work he tried to appear rough and gruff and I wondered what he was like at home.

In Murray's case, I wonder if the writers planned it that way so they could bring up his desire for a son. In the episode where they adopted, Murray voiced a desire to have a son and Marie was just happy to be done with midnight feedings and diapers and wasn't looking forward to having another baby.

Interesting also, in the TV reunion movie with Mary and Rhoda, both women had daughters. Incidentally two of the most boring characters I ever saw! They just about ruined the movie for me. Hard to believe that Mary and Rhoda could have such dull daughters.

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[–] CarolTheDabbler (576) 2 years ago

I always thought it was odd that Betty Bowerchuck wasn't at her father's funeral, "Chuckles Bites the Dust".

I don't think Chuckles was ever played by the same (real-life) actor twice, so quite possibly the in-universe character was played by a succession of in-universe actors -- under the assumption that the kids couldn't tell the difference under all that makeup. I don't believe that the name Bowerchuck was ever mentioned again after "Ted Over Heels." So it seem entirely possible that Mr. Bowerchuck was not the man whose funeral we saw.

Interesting also, in the TV reunion movie with Mary and Rhoda, both women had daughters. Incidentally two of the most boring characters I ever saw! They just about ruined the movie for me. Hard to believe that Mary and Rhoda could have such dull daughters.

Agreed! But you and I were fans of the original shows, and the TV movie reunion needed to appeal to a larger audience as well. Maybe the daughters were more interesting to younger viewers who found Mary and Rhoda dull and boring? (Or at least somebody hoped they would be.)

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[–] [email protected] (5926) 2 years ago

Good explanations about Betty Bowerchuck's absence! You're right about different actors playing Chuckles. I think it was in his first appearance when he was played by Richard Schaal, at the time Valerie Harper's real life husband. He also played look-a-like brothers that Mary dated. Remember Howard and Paul?

I just assumed it was supposed to be the same man playing Chuckles since his daughter Betty had that name. But of course, his original portrayer may have used Chuckles and his successors just kept the name for consistency.

"kids couldn't tell the difference"? How about adults? I was an adult when I learned that Ronald McDonald had been played by different men and I never noticed! LOL

I still maintain that Rose and Meredith were DULL! At least they didn't use the names they originally planned to use in the movie, Rhoda and Mary. That would've been too pat. Honestly I can't recall the actresses who played the daughters. But I remember thinking at the time that they were not very good actresses.

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[–] CarolTheDabbler (576) 2 years ago

... his original portrayer may have used Chuckles and his successors just kept the name for consistency.

True. The name might not even have been the first actor's idea, just what the producer wanted to call the character.

I was an adult when I learned that Ronald McDonald had been played by different men and I never noticed!

Same thing with Clarabell on Howdy Doody. The original actor was Bob Keeshan (later Captain Kangaroo). I don't recall noticing when they replaced him, but apparently they got a LOT of indignant letters!

I can't recall the actresses who played the daughters. But I remember thinking at the time that they were not very good actresses.

Maybe, maybe not. I remember thinking Martin Landau wasn't much of an actor, back when all I'd seen him in was Mission: Impossible. But when I saw him in something else, I realized that the problem was the way his M:I character was written -- namely, with no soul.

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[–] CarolTheDabbler (576) 2 years ago

We watched "Chuckles Bites the Dust" last night, and they were pretty explicit about it being the same man playing the clown for 30 years. They didn't mention his last name though, just that his first name was George. But Betty may very well have been sitting in the front row at the funeral. We mostly see just one half of the seats, where the WJM crew and a few other people are sitting. But we do catch an occasional glimpse of one young woman sitting across an aisle from them, at the front corner of the other section. So I'm guessing that the widow, children, et al were sitting in that half.

As for why Betty's presence wasn't acknowledged, her romance with Ted was apparently pretty short-lived (we never see her or even hear her mentioned again), and presumably ended badly. Ted would of course blame Betty for the break-up, so he wouldn't acknowledge her presence, and if anyone else recognized her, they would have been very hesitant to mention it, what with Ted (and more importantly Georgette) being right there. So I'd say we're perfectly free to assume that Betty was at the funeral, and may in fact have chatted with Mary afterwards.

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[–] xanthas (3215) 2 years ago

I wonder if anyone working on the show noticed this. Maybe it's just a coincidence because the show's creator, James L. Brooks, had a daughter (during the years the show aired. He had sons later on with his second wife.)

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[–] CarolTheDabbler (576) 2 years ago

I wonder if anyone working on the show noticed this.

I can't imagine that it was accidental. My best guess is that, what with Mary, the main character, being surrounded by men at work, they wanted to make any other characters female -- thus Rhoda, Phyllis, Sue Ann, Georgette, and everybody's daughters. (Oops, I forgot to mention that Phyllis's only child is a daughter.)

Brooks having a daughter might have been an influence, but there being nine known daughters and only two (adopted) sons makes me think it was a fully conscious decision by the main staff members.

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[–] liscarkat (18589) 2 years ago

It's possible, but unlikely that all these coworkers only had daughters. My mom had four boys. My mother-in-law had four girls.

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[–] CarolTheDabbler (576) 2 years ago

When I was a kid, mostly boys were born in our neighborhood. (Most of us girls were born before our families moved there, or after they moved away.) So yes, it's possible.

By the way, I just noticed that alanjobe started a very similar thread ("Having girls and adopting boys") six years ago. (And I posted in it!)

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[–] [email protected] (5926) 2 years ago

All the kids in my grandmother's neighborhood were boys too. We moved out of state for a few years because of my dad's job. But we'd spend most of the summer back home at our grandmother's house. My sisters and I played with the boys on the block. There were at least thirteen that I can remember.

One family alone had seven. Their mom really wanted a girl and kept trying! No luck. The boy closest to my age was one of my best friends. His nickname was Pickles. We had a lot of fun all summer. He taught me how to play rummy.

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[–] CarolTheDabbler (576) 2 years ago

All the kids in my grandmother's neighborhood were boys too. [....] One family alone had seven. Their mom really wanted a girl and kept trying!

One family in our neighborhood had five boys. Then they moved to the next county over and had a girl!

The boy closest to my age was one of my best friends. His nickname was Pickles.

Any relation to Buddy Sorrell's wife?

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[–] [email protected] (5926) 2 years ago

LOL No! His family loved nicknames though. One of his brothers was nicknamed Bingo, no relation to the game.

I wonder if it was something in the water that caused all those boys in our town. I just remembered that a classmate of mine (boy) had three older brothers. His mom wanted a girl desperately. She finally had two.

The family who lived in our house before us had four boys. The mom also wanted girls. And she also finally had two.

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