Grant Tinker's Comments about 'rural' Comedies.... - Mary Tyler Moore (1970) Discussion

[–] PrometheusTree64 10 years ago

Your comments that the rural comedies are somehow "timeless classics" and that "MTM" is not reflects your silly bias.

Yes, THE ANDY GRIFFITH SHOW is a rural show that is also a timeless classic. But if you think PETTICOAT JUNCTION also qualifies, you just can't be taken seriously.

Tinker's comments were reasonable, by the way. The problem was that by the beginning of the '70s, the rural sitcom genre --- highly reptitive and formulaic and not character-based (except for GRIFFITH, of course) and overly slapstick -- had become stale and needed replacement.

Tinker didn't "have a chip on his shoulder"; he was correct.

Also, 1960s TV didn't reflect any topicality. And given the cultural changes going on in the streets, TV needed to adjust.

Maybe some rednecks view JUNCTION as a timeless classic compared to "terribly dated" MARY, but many aren't that goofy in their thinking. (That said, I love JUNCTION's theme song).

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The most profound of sin is tragedy unremembered.

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[–] RvaBread22 10 years ago

I guess my point was that MTM became very dated because of its political agenda. The rural comedies didn't have any real agenda, just for entertainment- and much of that can be dated to a degree( everything is ), but they weren't as much stuck in times as MTM Show and others that had such a political agenda or some kind of thing. MTM was following a trend and aimed at being "trendy". Whenever a show does that, it becomes much more time sensitive. Some of the jokes about Nixon or others that pertain to women's rights would be lost on most of today's audiences.

Watching MTM can be depressing because its so 1970s. Watching Green Acres could take place in any time really- just an example. But its kind of the idea that somehow urban is better. I just didn't like the way he was being condescending and putting down quality shows to make MTM show appear to be better.

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[–] 10 years ago

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[–] MammothPicturesReturns 10 years ago

The Andy Griffith Show was a classic tv comedy. The Beverly Hillbillies and Petticoat Junction were forgettable fluff. Green Acres was surreal and wacky, and was a better show than most. The Mary Tyler Moore Show was a timeless classic in the way that I Love Lucy, Andy Griffith, and Dick Van Dyke were.

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

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[–] RvaBread22 10 years ago

MTM had its moments, but I would not call it timeless.

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[–] PrometheusTree64 10 years ago

But one must understand that the OP has an (obvious) political agenda --- in another thread on another page, he said: "but Hitler was the biggest liberal of them all".

So.... y'know.....

I guess my point was that MTM became very dated because of its political agenda.

But MARY TYLER MOORE didn't have a political agenda. When compared to ALL IN THE FAMILY and MAUDE, the MTM Show stayed away from such topicality almost entirely.

And that may be what made THE MARY TYLER MOORE SHOW so good: it was less dated politically with the in-your-face controversies of other shows, yet wasn't as vacuously repetitive and formulaic as the rural sitcoms of the '60s (although ANDY GRIFFITH was great, but it was already gone by 1970).

MTM had its moments, but I would not call it timeless.

And yet you thought PETTICOAT JUNCTION was. So your subjective judgment can be called into question.

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The most profound of sin is tragedy unremembered.

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[–] RvaBread22 10 years ago

I'm wondering by your comments if you have ever even watched MTM show?
Because yes, INDEED, The Mary Tyler Moore Show was EXTREMELY POLITCAL!

They talked frequently about "women's lib", Mary "not having to get married", pursuing selfishly her career, equal pay, etc,. Phyllis's rants, Anchormen are dumb. They even had a gay character guest star on the show (Phillyis's Brother). So, yes it was very political during many times of the show. Mary ended up an unemployed old maid at the end of the series. It was rather depressing.

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[–] PrometheusTree64 10 years ago

I'm wondering by your comments if you have ever even watched MTM show?
Because yes, INDEED, The Mary Tyler Moore Show was EXTREMELY POLITCAL!

They talked frequently about "women's lib", Mary "not having to get married", pursuing selfishly her career, equal pay, etc,. Phyllis's rants, Anchormen are dumb. They even had a gay character guest star on the show (Phillyis's Brother). So, yes it was very political during many times of the show. Mary ended up an unemployed old maid at the end of the series. It was rather depressing.

See? The OP is crazy.

He says the MTM SHOW is "extremely political" (even the examples he cites aren't very political) and on another board says that Hitler "was the biggest liberal of them all."

He's nuts. And nuts with an agenda.

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The most profound of sin is tragedy unremembered.

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[–] MammothPicturesReturns 10 years ago

There is nothing political about the MTM Show. The OP has an agenda bigger than the planet Jupiter.

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

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[–] jayhn1111 10 years ago

I"m not seeing any heavy handed political agenda in this show. The premise of the show makes a statement in itself, but I never felt like there were any politics shoved down my throat.

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[–] darkridedan 10 years ago

Prometheustree64's original post is a good example of that "chip-on-the-shoulder."

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[–] FlushingCaps 10 years ago

I am going to stay away from your political discussion and focus on other points about this series.

I agree with RvaBread (love to hear how you came up with that moniker) in that the Mary Tyler Moore Show is not "timeless" because much of its humor is quite dated to the politics and news of the day. Many of the things that got laughs then don't generate them to people today because of that. Kind of like a monologue from Johnny Carson has some jokes that are timeless and others that were only funny at the time--you'd need to explain them so people could understand the joke. The explanation, of course, keeps it from being funny any more.

Shows like Andy Griffith, Green Acres, and Beverly Hillbillies are timeless and are just as funny to watch today as they were then because the humor had nothing, or almost nothing, to do with current events. Petticoat Junction is the same type of "timeless" in its humor, but I would agree it doesn't fit in with "classics" if you mean to include it as one of TV's funniest series ever. It was not nearly that funny.

For my money, MTM was not nearly as funny in it's final four years as it had been. I think they ran out of funny plots (or the producers made poor choices in selecting scripts), relied too much on Mary's "friends" at work being her only friends at home and because they were so focused on showing her being successful as a single woman, it got a bit disappointing that they continued to show her never finding a long-lasting boyfriend. She wanted a steady companion, as would most people, but she never got one.

Now the Bob Newhart Show, another MTM production, did focus on timeless humor and it is also a classic great sitcom, one of the best ever. They kept up the mix of Bob's office pals, Jerry and Carol, and his home life, Emily and Howard, and, near the end, the Peeper. Mary Richards wound up going home from work, or having a day off and all of her office associates kept showing up, usually unexpectedly. Once Rhoda and Phyllis were gone, Mary seemed to have no people to associate with regularly except the folks from the office--none of whom were really close friends that she would go to plays or sports events or shopping with. That's a big part of why the show went downhill so much.

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[–] PrometheusTree64 10 years ago

Any "politics" in MARY TYLER MOORE is so comparatively subtle that it doesn't get in the way of the show (unlike ALL IN THE FAMILY and MAUDE, which were both so in-your-face with it).

The problem with the rural sitcoms of the '60s, or even the 1970s BOB NEWHART, is that they were so devoid of period references or reflections of those attitudes that the episodes become about essentially nothing. (And that hurts even the comedy).

They're pleasant, but that's about it.

So ALL IN THE FAMILY became too political to be "timeless" and most of the '60s rural sitcoms were too vacuous to have any resonance at all. (So they just become metaphoric for what TV could or couldn't show for their respective decades).

But MARY TYLER MOORE got the balance right: it was of its time, yet not anchored there due to excessive topicality.

That's why ANDY GRIFFITH and DICK VAN DYKE and MARY TYLER MOORE are classics. And the others are something else.

For my money, MTM was not nearly as funny in it's final four years as it had been.

That assertion right there doesn't help your point. Many feel the last four seasons were even funnier, probably due to the addition of David Lloyd.

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The most profound of sin is tragedy unremembered.

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[–] Countryford 10 years ago

For my money, MTM was not nearly as funny in it's final four years as it had been. I think they ran out of funny plots (or the producers made poor choices in selecting scripts), relied too much on Mary's "friends" at work being her only friends at home and because they were so focused on showing her being successful as a single woman, it got a bit disappointing that they continued to show her never finding a long-lasting boyfriend. She wanted a steady companion, as would most people, but she never got one.

I agree with you to an extent. They should have brought in new friends, after Phylis and Rhoda moved away. They tried with Penny Marshall(of Laverne & Shirley), after Mary moved to her new place. As far as having a "long-lasting boyfriend" I think it just would of been closer to "That Girl".

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[–] metatron1970 9 years ago

And indeed it almost became "That Girl" literally when Ted Bissell showed up in a couple of episodes as one of Mary's boyfriends. Bissell meshed well with the other actors and would have made an interesting addition to the show. I get the impression the writers were trying the character out for a test run but in the end opted to stick with the single woman framework. I liked the fact that he wasn't one of Mary's nice, boring suitors but rather a conflicted horndog, still dating other women when he's supposedly serious about Mary.

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[–] In_Correct 9 years ago

I don't mind this show and it has some moments, but its terribly dated and definitely a product of its time. Grant Tinker made a rant about rural comedies, and people were ready for more urban, younger "sophisticated" sit coms, and MTM show reflected the need for that.

The glaring irony is that shows such as "Green Acres", "Petticoat Junction" and "The Beverly Hillbillies" and ESPECIALLY Andy Griffith , remain timeless classics. Where as shows such as this one and "All the Family", "Maude", That Girl, etc. are much more dated and irrelevant today. I think its probably that he had a chip on his shoulder or something.

That has nothing to do whether a show is dated or not. Besides, this isn't simply Grant Tinker's opinion. The networks forced the Rural Purge. They dodged The Rural Purge by choosing an underfunded local TV Evening News covering a VERY isolated metro.

I'm wondering by your comments if you have ever even watched MTM show?
Because yes, INDEED, The Mary Tyler Moore Show was EXTREMELY POLITCAL!

They talked frequently about "women's lib", Mary "not having to get married", pursuing selfishly her career, equal pay, etc,. Phyllis's rants, Anchormen are dumb. They even had a gay character guest star on the show (Phillyis's Brother). So, yes it was very political during many times of the show. Mary ended up an unemployed old maid at the end of the series. It was rather depressing.

No way. Any Norman Lear show is preachy and political. Mary also has a Jewish friend, which upsets Christian religious people, (Remember this is exactly why they canceled Bridget Loves Bernie.) but Mary ONLY wanted a job, the career planning came much later into the show. Who cares if Phyllis ranting too much, or that Anchormen are dumb. That is what made the show funny. Unemployed old maid?! Are you trying to be funny? They explained decades later Mary Richards got a job for 12 years at ABC News. Then took an 8 year vacation because of her daughter needed her around. Then she turned 60 and had to go back to work for a boss who was much younger than her.

Let's face it. Much of TV sitcoms from that time period and even dramas all had "agendas" Charlie's Angels wasn't about bouncing boobs. It was about three women who went to the poe lease academy only to be assigned stereotypically female jobs. (Ironically, the big boss was constantly "sick" and under the care of various Hot Nurses.) Three's Company was about a man living with two women which was a No-No at the time period. And I already mentioned Bridget Loves Bernie, which is about an inter-religious marriage. SOAP covered MANY TV Taboos. Square Pegs was about a high school sit-com basically filmed by high schoolers!

Many TV shows starred Black People. Julia, The Jeffersons, Good Times, Sanford And Son, What's Happening!. Sadly, these TV shows had a very low budget, just like in real life. LOL.

NONE of what I mentioned seems to reflect Rural Life. And that was not good to have Rural TV shows still on in the early 1970s. So they cancelled most of them.

Want a political agenda show? Try The Roseanne Show. Sure, Dan Conner had a huge temper, but most of the time he was very reasonable and level headed. In the interview by other TV Wives, Roseanne said "I'M THE BOSS, and Fat Her Knows SQUAT!".

Murphy Brown is also feminist. In fact, it is feminist version of the Mary Tyler Moore Show. Go slam that show instead of MTM.

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[–] Blueghost 9 years ago

Possibly. I think it may be more that the shows you listed dealt more with contemporary issues of the time than stuff that's traditional and experienced by every generation. That is the rural comedies dealt with friendship and family ties, business and lightly touched on sex.

The sitcoms in urban settings dealt with racism, people of different classes, being cheated in business, and city oriented issues of the day.

And I happen to like Mary Tyler Moore as a nostalgia blast, and can rewatch it. But I really can't rewatch the rural sit coms. So it it's a matter of preference, and possibly generational too.

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