MovieChat Forums > True Grit (1969) Discussion > religious contradiction ?

religious contradiction ?


Mattie is eager to have her father buried with his Mason's apron,
but at Bagby's she informs us,
that her family is Cumberland Presbyterian.

How does that fit together ?

At least in the Roman Catholic Church,
membership in a freemasons' lodge is strictly forbidden,
and whoever is discovered,
is immediately excluded from the services of the community.

Doesn't that work for Presbyterians too ?
Or do they tolerate membership in an essentially anti-christian organization ?

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Some Protestants are fine with it--to the point of including Freemason symbols on grave markers and even stained glass church windows. Some are not. It seems the Presbyterians had issues with it as recently as 1995. http://freemasonrywatch.org/westminster.presbytery.rules.html

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So, according to the document quoted by you,
Mattie's father seems to have been "an inactive member of the Session"
in the Cumberland Presbyterian Church.

I don't know whether this does make any sense ...

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According to this, http://www.facebook.com/notes/presbyterian-historical-society/freemasonry-and-presbyterians/305497794968 there were differences between various congregations. Perhaps Mattie's father belonged to one with a tolerant pastor.

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Well, the tenor of my remark was rather:

What sense does it make to himself, Mattie's father,
to belong to an utterly christian organization
and to an utterly anti-christian organization at the same time ?

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The answer is quite simple. Well...unless you see conspiracies around everything that exists in life...the Masonic order isn't considered anti-Christian. At least by people who have any sense.

I'm not a Mason, but I know more than 300 in several different states, and I can say without reservation that calling the organization, or it's practitioners, "anti-Christian" is both ignorant, and decidedly uninformed.


I don't act...I react. John Wayne

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Well, His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI,
when he was still Prefect of the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith at the Holy See,
issued a document confirming that Freemasons are strictly excluded from the services of the Holy Catholic Church,
due to the anti-christian character of their organization.

That's the only source of information I have studied.

But I admit, may be I am not well informed.

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If you WERE well informed, you'd know that the reason "his holiness" was so adamant in his suspicions of the Masons, is because he saw them (as the church since their inception) as a threat to the power of the Catholic church at the time...and in the future.

There are those in the Catholic church who view ANYTHING done outside of the church as being "anti-Christian." This stance has been around for well over 1,000 years.


I don't act...I react. John Wayne

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I think you are right.

Please don't misunderstand me:

I am not a religious person, rather a fan of Richard Dawkins.

I just couldn't imagine that any christian communities
could be compatible with freemasonry.

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No problem.

I'm a Christian (with a brain, and an advanced degree), but not Catholic.

It's too bad that through the years, unspeakable things have been done in the name of religion (not just Christianity), and misconceptions abound.

Unfortunately, the Masons get a bad rap for everything nefarious in the world!

Good luck with everything.

I don't act...I react. John Wayne

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I think it's true that some of the higher-degreed Masons have been involved in nefarious and subversive activities since the Masons began, but that's no reflection on the hundreds of thousands of Masons world wide, most of whom are members because of each person's need for male bonding and to participate in the charitable deeds and community services that logdges have always been known to engage in. Evildoers and schemers will conspire and commit evil deeds whether they're wearing a Mason's ring, a cleric's collar or a Middle Easterner's head dress; but the truly vast majority of Masons, clergymen and Middle Easterners aren't out to subvert, seduce, subdue or destroy everyone who doesn't fit into their world view.

Bari has correctly stated that the Masons are anathema to the Roman Catholic Church and its heirarchy, out of concerns and policies of wielding all power and brooking no competitors; and because of the opposition and competition by Masons, most of whom are Protestants.


Whatever you do, DO NOT read this sig--ACKKK!!! TOO LATE!!!

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This is what Masons are said to be doing:

male bonding, scheming, conspiracy.

They are the only one
officially tolerated secret organisation in our societies,
and that refers not only to the higher degrees,
but to the middle and lower ones too.

Well, all that is a general feature of mankind,
innated deep in our genes.
And I am far away from attacking this behaviour
from any moral point of view.

I just like to state it,
as I try to analize the structure of human society.

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I have never wanted to become a Mason because many churches, including my own, have some legitimate problems with any of their members joining this group; some churches, including mine, fulfill social, charitable and spiritual needs, making Masonic membership redundant at best. Nevertheless, I am interested in seeing your sources. I have some friendly acquintences who are Masons and I cannot imagine any of them being caught up in any of the kind of illegal activities and conspiracies which have popularly been attributed to the higher ranks among the Masons.

Whatever you do, DO NOT read this sig--ACKKK!!! TOO LATE!!!

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I did not say they are engaged in illegal activities.

I just said:

male bonding, scheming, conspiracy.

But that's what more or less all people are doing,
more or less consciously.

The remarkable thing is,
that the masons are doing it
as an officially tolerated secret organization.

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"I'm a Christian (with a brain" lol

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The Pope's proclamation might have a lot to do with the fact that the Catholic Church through he office of the Pope conspired with the King of France to destroy the Templars in the 14th Century. The Templars were becoming more popular than the Church and the King of France was deeply in debt to them. So, the King (Philip the Fair, lol) promised a payoff to the Church in exchange for denouncing the Templars.

The Freemasons trace their heritage and teachings to the Templars and paint the Catholic Church in a very negative light in their teachings. I think they are just being honest, but I suspect that the Church takes umbrage.

The Freemasons also demand that all members keep the secrets of the lodge secret from all, including their priest. A Mason is not permitted to disclose lodge information in confession. I think the Church is also opposed to that.

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May be you are right,
but there are still more and more fundamental differences,
concerning basic philosophy and ideology,
so that none of them both can tolerate the existence of the other one.

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That's true. John Wayne himself was made a Mason in 1970 at Marion McDaniel Lodge in Arizona. Photos of this event are still on the Lodge's website if one googles it.

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Getting in way late, but just fyi: I'm not sure what you were questioning here. Being an "inactive member of the session" is true of many elders in any given church. The "session" is the group of active elders in charge of church policy, budgets, etc., at any given time, and there are (to my knowledge) always more elders than spots on the session, so you always have a certain number of elders who are "inactive" in the sense of being not on the current session. Or, it's possible for an elder to be "inactive" in the sense of having been deactivated for whatever reason (that he/she is not willing, able, etc., to serve on session if so designated).

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It's Catholics that have problems with Masons, not Protestants. In fact, to the RC in the Vatican, the words are synonymous.

I remember when my parents and I visited a beautiful church in Mexico City and the priest came up to greet us and welcome us. My father, a Presbyterian and a Mason, subtly turned his Mason ring up side down before the priest got too close so as not to offend him.

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interesting point !

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Masonic.

Catholics also are masons. P2 is the lodge that has had much written about its activities especially by author David Yallop 'in gods name'
Also suspected of being behind the Murder of a banker at Blackfriars in london. Much written about this conspiracy.

The Catholic church is not fond of its adherents coming into regular contact[in organizations such as the masonic] as it could dilute the belief system. Something like the dilemma Katie Holmes will have.

The masonic requires belief in a higher power so this in fact allows all faiths and sub faiths to choose to join or be asked to join.

Masonry has within its degree system allowances for various sideways and direct advancements the degrees available can be easily perused in a web browser.

Although I do not understand why not Satanists are not welcomed yet that unreal individual is seen as a higher power.

The order does not follow any particular faith pattern but in reality if a GOOD person becomes a mason it is likely he will also be a Good Mason.

Like any organisation it will have members who can behave quite badly.

Recently Priests have created a a disbelief system because of their regularity in not only suffer the children but making the little children suffer.

After the sudden demise of Pope John Paul 1 in 1978 much was written about irregularities on the Roman Catholic finances. So here we see two of the main reasons for troubles, Sex and money. The Mormon church was rocked some years by something similar in money area.

People will always find ways of using and abusing what ever may be to hand.

This can include Presidents, church leaders, BANKERS, I read that President Clinton might have enjoyed some of the special attentions that Mrs Regan freely gave had he just asked. Senators filing out expenses claims the list goes on an on.

Why remember that some Masons traitorously stole away a British Colony in the late 1770s. So that should make everyone suspicious of the order. A little jesting.

Masonry requires that particular faith tenets are not subject matter in open meeting and frowned upon as conversation between members although it must go on.

I suppose the only faith that meets that criteria is the Jewish one as it has no obvious recruitment policy.








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[deleted]

I'm a Catholic, albeit not a very zealous one. This is the first time I've ever heard anything about Freemasons not being tolerated by the church. Where did you get your information on that from?

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Look here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_ban_of_Freemasonry

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There is absolutely nothing in the Freemason code that is Anti-Christian, since Freemasonry is not a religion but rather a fraternity which most certainly permits Christians to join and does not take the place of their faith in any way shape or form. The Catholic Church does have issues with it, but many non Catholic Christian churches in turn see the Catholic Church as a false church too and the whore of Babylon, as well as the Freemasons as an Anti-Christian cult, so who is right?

The truth probably is that none of them are, and that they all are in a quagmire of suspicion and division drummed up by the devil to turn them against one another. I am a Christian myself, but not affiliated with any denomination or group. So I don't really condemn or have issues with any of them as a whole. Some things its best to let God sort out.

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Unfortunately,
not to be affiliated with any denomination
means that one has to believe in the inventions of one's own phantasy.

Can that really be a reliable source of one's faith ?

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not to be affiliated with any denomination
means that one has to believe in the inventions of one's own phantasy.


Uh, you're wrong. The source of my faith is the Bible, and I do attend a Pentecostal church, I simply don't actually consider myself to be directly affiliated with the denomination to the point where I would attend no other. It has always been my view the differences between the various denominations are superficial, any church whose direction comes from the Bible and whose head is Jesus Christ is a true church to me.

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That's what I say:

Between the various denominations
there are thousands of differences in fundamental issues
and they all can rely on the bible,
because the bible too allows thousands of different interpretations.

So where do you find any reliable source of your faith ?

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I consider myself a scientist, as well as an engineer. I adhere to faith in empiricism. While I accept and attempt to satisfy the need in myself for a spiritual relationship to the universe (all that is), I consider religion suspiciously as all of it seems to me as indistinguishable from superstition.

I spent my adolescence as a born again Christian and as a De Molay. I can state that one requirement of being accepted as a Mason to be that one profess a belief in a single creator of the universe. Beyond that Masonry neither requires nor encourages any religious belief and discussion of personal religious belief is prohibited in the Masonic community.

I have been told that the Catholic Church is suspicious of and hostile to the Masonic Lodge because the Lodge requires that members give and adhere to a solemn oath to each other to keep Lodge activities private (secret) among Lodge members only. This oath includes keeping the Lodge activities secret from the Catholic Church, including any individual's confessor. This conflicts absolutely with the Catholic Church's requirement that all of a person's activities and thoughts being open to the Church through that person's priest.

I would trust a Master Mason before I would trust a Catholic Priest, especially when it came to my child.

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Me seem I've learnt something new now:

If one is an atheist, such as e.g. Richard Dawkins,
he can't be accepted as a Mason.

Is that right ?

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Yes, an avowed atheist cannot be accepted as a Mason. Each applicant must swear to a belief in a "Supreme Being," though the form and definition of this Supreme Being is left open to the individual and no Mason is ever questioned about his personal belief by a Mason. It is considered personal.

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My dad was a Mason and a Methodist. And a Shriner.

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... and all Shriners must be Freemasons first, of course.

Some history: Giuseppe Garibaldi was a great admirer of the USA and its founding fathers-- many of whom, such as Washington, Jefferson, Franklin, etc. were very active and dedicated Freemasons-- or Masons.

Garibaldi founded a revolutionary organisation, the Carabinieri. One requirement for membership was that one had to be a Mason.

Garibaldi's objective was to bring the Italian cities and states together in a secular republic with freedom of religion like the US. One can imagine what the Vatican thought of potentially being surrounded by a country that was not officially Catholic.

The RC Church had never been friendly to Masons but this was the last straw and the Pope declared a Papal Bull excommunicating any Catholic who became a mason. I think this was about 1813.

Despite that, I have known a few Catholics who were Masons. I asked one why he had joined the Masons instead of the Knights of Columbus-- or the Elks for that matter.

He said that his brother had had a severely crippled son who had received a tremendous number of surgeries,extensive therapy, etc. at a Shriner's hospital at no cost to him. He thought that any organisation that would do that was one he would like to be in. So he became a Mason in order to join the Shriners. He really enjoyed the Lodge and became very active in the order. I don't remember if he ever went on to the Shriners or not!

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It's all idiocy.

Grow a brain and drop it.

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Read up on the men who signed your country's Proclamation of Independence and see how many of them were masons and christians.

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