Why Barbra?
She was a good 20 years too young for the lead role. Isn't Dolly supposed to be in her 40s?
shareShe was a good 20 years too young for the lead role. Isn't Dolly supposed to be in her 40s?
shareMany believe that it was her success in FUNNY GIRL that led to her winning the DOLLY role. However, it should be remembered that she was signed to DOLLY even before the cameras started to roll on FUNNY GIRL. I read that the producer, Ernest Lehman, said that he was indeed thinking about Carol Channing, but after seeing THOROUGHLY MODERN MILLIE, he had second thoughts. He then explained his casting of Streisand by saying something like that she was an exciting personality. In a way, this was taking a tremendous chance. Streisand hadn't even made a movie yet. Perhaps he was banking on the fact that her records and TV specials had done so well, that she would be successful in film as well.
shareWhen Thornton Wilder wrote THE MATCHMAKER, he described Dolly as a woman of "indeterminate age."
And frankly, from adaptation to adaptation, the character of Dolly has gone through many changes. In THE MATCHMAKER, Dolly had never been to Harmonia Gardens. But by the time THE MATCHMAKER was turned into HELLO, DOLLY!, Dolly was made into a former "regular" at Harmonia Gardens. As has already been pointed out, producer-screenwriter Ernest Lehman dropped the idea of casting Carol Channing after he saw her in THOROUGHLY MODERN MILLIE (the top brass at 20th Century Fox backed his decision). He needed a dynamic new female star, and Barbra Streisand was the most dynamic of them all - over the past few years she'd conquered the recording industry, Broadway, television, and most felt it was just a matter of time before she conquered motion pictures. Lehman was one of those who believed she was destined for a great film career, so he began to wonder - why can't Dolly be a young widow? Lehman essentially felt the show was about a woman emerging from a state of emotional isolation and rejoining the parade of life, and that could certainly happen to someone in her late 20s. And a fresh, younger Dolly would give the property even greater appeal. At least, that was the thinking at 20th Century Fox in 1967.
Anyway, Lehman set about adapting the character for Streisand. All references to Dolly losing her husband over a decade earlier were dropped. Would the public accept Streisand as an Irishwoman? Probably not, so "Dolly Gallagher Levi" became simply "Dolly Levi." Of course, you still had those "look at the old girl now" references, but if Shirley Jones at 27 could be an "old maid" in THE MUSIC MAN, Streisand at 26 could be an "old girl" in HELLO, DOLLY! And movie audiences were about to see Omar Sharif, an Egyptian-born Christian who'd converted to Islam ten years earlier, playing the Jewish Nicky Arnstein in FUNNY GIRL. Obviously, neither film was trying for kitchen sink realism; this was the fluffy, make-believe world of late 60s movie musicals - an era when (literally) anything seemed possible.
By the time DOLLY was released, the title character had become so identified with women of "a certain age" that some couldn't accept Streisand in the role. Others had no problem whatsoever. And still others suspected she was too young but decided it didn't matter.
Then as now, it's an individual call.
Hi Murph24! Loved your post!
I myself **love** Streisand as Dolly. I have loved her in the role ever since I first saw the film when it was first telecast by CBS in 1973, when I was 9. Ever since then, I've measured all "Dollys" by Streisand, even today. I thought she was full of life, hysterically funny, heartwarming, and CERTAINLY has the stage presence.
Since I was only 9, and didn't have a clue about the "age issue", it never occured to me that some thought she was wrong for the part. I think she looks at least 35-ish. If you figure that she married at 19, lost Ephraim at 25 or 26 or so .... that's plenty of time to be have spent with him, and then be without a husband and a young widow.
"Cut the ballet. It stinks anyway"
Greetings!
What you said is true - the studios making FUNNY GIRL, HELLO DOLLY! and ON A CLEAR DAY were taking an enormous chance on Streisand. They were gambling over $35 million (an enormous sum in those days) on someone who'd never appeared before a film camera. Of course, once FUNNY GIRL had opened, won Streisand an Oscar and become a huge box office hit, they breathed a little easier - Columbia did, anyway.
I never had a problem with Streisand in the role of Dolly Levi, either. But then, I was one of those Los Angeles kids who read Variety voraciously, and I knew they were making changes in the script for her. It surprised me that some of the critics reviewed the film as though she were doing the Broadway script, which she clearly wasn't.
Following the fortunes of HELLO DOLLY! over the past few decades has been interesting. Although the initial release didn't make the fortune the executives were hoping for, the film continued to make money over the years. The VHS release was very successful, second only to THE SOUND OF MUSIC in earnings. DVD numbers have been more than respectable, and now that the film is getting a boost from its connection to WALL-E, it stands to do even better business.
Obviously, there's still life in the "old girl."
Thanks again, murph!
There are those that feel that if Streisand was not in the film, it would not have done even as well as it *did* do. So, arguments that it "flopped" because it was "miscast" go out the window.
I am pleased to know that DOLLY is / was not the "Heaven's Gate" that it's always made out to be. Over the years, it has become legend that it's supposed to be one of Hollywood's greatest flops. Not so. It may not have made back its money initially, but it *did* earn as much (maybe a bit more) as ROSEMARY'S BABY, which is considered a huge success. Then, as you mentioned, it did extremely well on home video.
I have both been in and directed several stage productions of DOLLY, and I must say that I love the script of the film much better than the stage version. It's funnier and snappier. In fact, in my last production that I directed at my church, I used "Just Leave Everything To Me" instead of "I Put My Hand In", and I added "Love is Only Love". I had to get special permission from Jerry Herman's company, but they were very friendly and cooperative.
Glad to know another DOLLY-movie fan!
"Cut the ballet. It stinks anyway"
Barbra Streisand as Dolly is one of the most sterling examples of bad casting that actually ... kind of works. Through sheer star-power and awesome vocals, she delivers what the producers wanted and what audiences expected: a big, splashy performance in an enormous, colorful extravanganza. It wasn't Jerry Herman's DOLLY and it certainly wasn't Thornton Wilder's Dolly (Ruth Gordon on stage, Shirley Booth on screen), but it had something unique nevertheless. I have always personally maintained that the PERFECT on-screen Herman Dolly would have been Judy Holliday. And part of me also wishes Alice Faye might have been given a shot at it, though she was obviously long in the tooth for those close ups. Debbie Reynolds could also have done it and perhaps stolen our hearts in doing so.
One feels the loss of Channing in her signature role. I don't agree with Ernie Lehman that she was too much for the camera. Dolly, like her outstanding Oscar-nominated turn as Muzzy van Hossmere in THOROUGHLY MODERN MILLIE, is a larger-than-life character and the role requires a largeness of spirit. If Lehman thought the proper director couldn't have toned down an excess of energy in front of the camera, then he did not have much confidence in either the performer or his chosen director, Gene Kelly (who resisted the assignment like crazy).
I think it wasn't at all an artistic consideration; it was absolutely a business decision. Just as Jack Warner had passed on then comparatively little-known Julie Andrews in 1962 in favor of signing Audrey Hepburn to protect his enormous investment in MY FAIR LADY, 20th Century Fox and Lehman had to protect their own (eventual) $26 million property (which, adjusted for inflation, is a whopping $159,000,000 today). Channing was out of the running early on, despite her undoubted popularity and high regard within the industry. Ironically, Julie Andrews--on the strength of her box office supremacy--was actually considered for the role and she wisely put the kibosh on that immediately (unlike some other musical/comedy actresses who ended upplaying the role, she was quite lucid about her limitations). Elizabeth Taylor lobbied strenuously for the part (and didn't stop lobbying for a musical role until she had landed A LITTLE NIGHT MUSIC in 1977) without success. I think we can all be glad of that.
Streisand, though not a bona-fide movie star at the time she was given the Dolly lead, was nevertheless a huge name from her very successful television appearances and even more successful concerts and recordings. She was considered a sure-bet. Her rave reviews and the spectacular box office returns for FUNNY GIRL seemed to bear that out and, once she copped the Oscar, all was on track for apparently unstoppable success. She even began filming ON A CLEAR DAY (which eventually cost more than $22 million in 1969 values), which was a genuine risk because, unlike both FUNNY GIRL and DOLLY--which had been enormous successes and star vehicles--ON A CLEAR DAY was a middling property with but a single hit title tune that had closed on Broadway after only a few months). Nobody seemed to know that the industry tide had already turned and that, following DOLLY!'s failure to earn back its cost, ON A CLEAR DAY'S losses would dwarf all others from the same approximate time period, including CAMELOT, DOCTOR DOOLITTLE, FINIAN'S RAINBOW, STAR!, DARLING LILI, SWEET CHARITY, PAINT YOUR WAGON, OH, WHAT A LOVELY WAR!, SONG OF NORWAY, SCROOGE, and GOODBYE MR CHIPS).
The publicity lead up to DOLLY! hailed Streisand's sizzling success in FUNNY GIRL and made her seem, indeed, a fresh and exciting prospect--which, as it turns out, is exactly what the story did NOT CALL FOR (nor was it actually true). Fresh and exciting WOULD have been lovely and talented Ann-Margret as Irene Malloy (her screen test was perfection--she'd have been wonderful in the role)--not a far too-young and visibly overweight Streisand channeling Mae West by way of Fanny Brice. Streisand did herself no favors within the industry by supposedly influencing the producers to NOT cast A-M in favor of the darkly beautiful but--shall we say?--mature looking [and obviously dubbed] Marianne McAndrew, hot on the heels of the [to-this-day-unconfirmed] rumors that she'd forced William Wyler/Columbia to nix nearly 100% of Anne Francis's scene-stealing beauty and grace in the release print of FUNNY GIRL. Nor by falling out so publicly with everybody's pal, Walter Matthau. Nor by ... well, whatever.
My own feelings about HELLO, DOLLY! are quite mixed. It's a spectacular, even dazzling production to watch on a big screen. It's impeccably choreographed. Danny Lockin and E.J. Peaker are definitive and simply wonderful in secondary roles that are usually far from memorable. Matthau was born to play Horace Vandergelder. Tommy Tune is impossibly tall and charming. Streisand sings the pants off of every song, and she supports Louis Armstrong well in the unfailingly joyous title song. But Barbra Streisand is never Dolly née Gallagher Levi. Not even during the rare quiet moment ("Love is Only Love"). She has power, force, dynamic energy, intelligence, wit, awesome pipes ... but she is not Dolly. I appreciate her but I don't buy her in the role for a moment. And, as we know from this show, it only ... takes a moment.
"Thank you, thank you--you're most kind. In fact you're every kind."
Hello again.
Actually, I fully understood why Ernest Lehman decided not to use Carol Channing in DOLLY! I remember seeing her in THOROUGHLY MODERN MILLIE; I was fine with her during "I'm A Jazz Baby," but by the time she got to "Do It Again" I wanted to hide under my chair. When Mrs. Meers showed up with a gun, my only thought was: "Good - kill Muzzy first." I won't say unkind things about Channing's features, so I'll just put it this way - I don't think film was her medium. Yes, she received an Oscar nomination for MILLIE, but don't forget she was riding a wave of sympathy then. I lived in Los Angeles at the time and went to school with a number of kids whose parents were Academy members, and they said their moms or dads voted to nominate Channing because they felt sorry for her (Streisand getting the role of Dolly was big news in the film community).
I knew Streisand was nobody's idea of Dolly (except Lehman's and various Fox executives), but I also knew the role had been adapted for her and, whether or not she was ideal casting, I thought she played her scenes well. Her monologue in the park to Ephraim was surprisingly moving, and her dinner table scene with Horace at Harmonia Gardens was hilarious. Sure, Streisand is always Streisand, but based on MILLIE, clips I've see of her on stage as Dolly and (gasp!) SKIDOO, Channing was always Channing. I think the ideal film Dolly (and I'm in complete agreement with you here) would have been Debbie Reynolds. Was she ever considered? Who knows. Maybe the top brass at Fox felt she was past her box office prime. Still, I think she would have been terrific.
But Ann-Margret as Irene Malloy? I'm not so sure. I love me some Ann-Marget, but I wasn't too crazy about her screen test; she looked a little too wiggly and voluptuous. I thought the idea of a demure, cameo-like Irene Malloy worked better (and contrasted more effectively) with Streisand's Dolly. I'm not sure if Marianne McAndrew was the perfect choice, but I thought she was the right type.
And Walter Matthau was everybody's pal? I read a biography about Art Carney (who played Felix to Matthau's Oscar on Broadway in THE ODD COUPLE) that would dispute that claim. As a matter of fact, Matthau's colleagues were prepared to make a formal complaint to Actors Equity regarding his onstage behavior, but ultimately decided not to pursue the matter.
Finally, all this talk about "Streisand demanding this" or "Streisand demanding that" or "ordering that Anne Francis' footage be scissored" has been disputed by many who worked with her at that time. While Streisand certainly attained that kind of power in the 70s, she didn't have it while her first two films were in production. Remember, FUNNY GIRL and HELLO, DOLLY! were both in the can months before FUNNY GIRL was released; it wasn't until she began producing her own films that she was truly calling the shots. The role played by Anne Francis in the movie version of FUNNY GIRL was also in the stage version, and it was also cut while the show was out of town. In fact, the role survived (in admittedly abbreviated form) in the film, while it was removed entirely from the stage show. Whether it was 1964 or 1968, the part of Fanny's showgirl pal was simply considered expendable.
Wow, great, detailed posts from Millie and Murph!
My feelings - I loved Streisand in the role. I was only 6 when the film was released, so I wasn't up on all the scuttle-but regarding the turmoil of her casting in 1967/68. I saw it in 1973 on CBS when I was about 9, and was enthralled. I begged my mom to play the soundtrack album for me constantly (at that age, I wasn't allowed to touch the "good" stereo in the living room, LOL!) It wasn't until the early 80's, when I was in high school and started reading books about Hollywood and Bdwy that I realized all the controversy.
Had I been able to understand all goings-on in 1967, I too would probably have though "STREISAND?!??!?!?" like many others did. But as I've stated, in the finished product, I thought she hit the correct notes (musically and otherwise). The energy, the star power, the timing...and her scene in the park before "Parade" is genuinely moving. The age thing did not really bug me because I felt (in my opinion) she looked about 35-ish.
I agree with Millie and Murph that Debbie Reynolds would have been AMAZING! She certainly had the energy and the star presence, and she would have been so much fun to watch! I don't know if anyone will agree, but I think Lucille Ball would have done very well. Again, the comic ability, the timing, and the star presence. And her singing would have been no worse than Carol Channing's. I think DOLLY would have been more suitable for her than MAME in fact.
I keep hearing about A-M's screen test. I would have loved it if she'd played Irene. But where is this test? I have two dvd's of 20th-Fox screen tests, and there's a lot of DOLLY material on them - but no A-M.
This exchange is fun!!
Peace & God bless,
Mike
"Cut the ballet. It stinks anyway"
I saw Ann-Margaret's screen test, singing "Ribbons Down My Back" live on the set with just piano accompaniment, in costume, on AMC, in the summer of 1996. I can see why she didn't get the part, but not because she wasn't right for it. She would have stole every scene that she was in the Babs.
JOE TYRIA
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Darn! I would have loved to see that - I have a dvd full of 20th Century Fox screen tests, but that's not on it!
"Cut the ballet. It stinks anyway"
I saw the Irene Malloy screen test on an A&E Biography special on Ann-Margret.
Actually, the part I would have loved seeing Ann-Margret play was Charity Hope Valentine in SWEET CHARITY. Even though I thought MacLaine was great, I still would have liked seeing Ann-Margret's "take" on the role. I bet she would have been terrific.
Wow! What a great casting idea!!!
"Cut the ballet. It stinks anyway"
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I'm not sure why you're saying "You forget the Julie Andrews case" - it doesn't have anything to do with what I've written.
First, I said three major studios were taking a risk by signing a film novice like Streisand for three big-budget productions (FUNNY GIRL, DOLLY and ON A CLEAR DAY) because it WAS a risk. But I never said she was the FIRST untried film performer to be signed for a series of movies.
And the reason I mentioned that both DOLLY and FUNNY GIRL were in the can before FUNNY GIRL was released was to point out that Streisand wasn't in a position to make "big movie star" demands, because she hadn't even established herself as a top box office draw yet. She didn't have the kind of power people often assumed she had until she started to produce her own work.
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"I am NOT diminishing or disputing your position. I am just saying that there was a precedent..."
But that's exactly the point - no one said it was unprecedented.
All I said was that Columbia, Fox and Paramount were taking a chance by gambling $35 million on three films starring a newcomer. Now, if I'd also added "this was something that had never happened before," then a response like "You forget the Julie Andrews case" would have made sense. But I didn't. And the fact that everything had gone well a few years earlier with Julie Andrews didn't make it any less of a financial risk for these three studios. And as we all know, it was a risk that didn't pay off in 1970 for Fox and Paramount.
So calm down. It's not that I didn't like what you'd written, or was offended by it; it's just that - in the context of what was actually said - it was irrelevant.
[deleted]
"whatever...you're getting to be pedantic and boring."
Actually, it's called "staying on topic." Reading carefully helps. So does refraining from childish insults.
Technically in the time of the movie wouldn't being in your late twenties be considered old anyway!!! So she probably would have been married for about 8/9 years anyway!! Sheesh, she did the film, she did it her way I don't suppose she would have turned it down at that time becuase it was important to her career to go with the flow!!! As it happens Carol Channing was awful and I think it served her right for stealing Barbra's funny girl award!!
shareHi there Everyone!,
I thought I'd throw my two cents into the mix!. Many critics and theatre goers who were familiar with the stage version of "Hello Dolly" had a real issue with Barbra being cast in the role. The problem wasn't one of talent, but of age. Considering the fact that at the time the movie was filmed in 1968, Barbra was a young woman in her mid twenties and the character she was suppose to be playing was a good 30 years older. The end result of this miscasting shows on screen. The youthful vigour that Barbra gives the part actually works "against" the character. Dolly is more calm and sage like in her demeanour. Barbra's interuptation is that of a woman who is going so fast that she just can't slow down to relax and take a breath!.
Vocally, Babs (as always) was up for the challenge and certainly didn't have any issues in that department. The irony is that Babs would be PERFECT to play the role now since she is the right age to do so. What's more I would even go as far as saying that she would have toned back the more "over the top" aspects of her performance by making Dolly more even keeled and level headed.
I'd be fascinated to see what the older Barbra would have done with the character of Dolly. As for Julie Andrews, she too would have been miscast as she was also too young at the time.....
Anyhoo, those are my thoughts anyway!.... :)
Hi Onwardsandupwards! I actually loved Bab's interpretation. I felt she really "took the stage" (or screen, as it was) and gave a star performance. I think they tried to make her look about 35-ish, appearance wise.
As a director my self, though - I would have had her tone down the Yiddish-y slant on some of her lines. This gave Dolly a too-close resemblance to Fanny Brice, especially at the moment in the Harmonia where Horace says - "anyone that would live with you would get as nervous as a cat" - and she, very Brice-ish says "what-whatwasthatyoujustsaid?"
I've said before - I think Lucille Ball would have been great - star presence, perfect comedy, a good actress for the softer scenes, and her singing was certainly about the same as Channing's. I didn't really think she hit the mark as Mame, but I think she would have been a swell Dolly.
"Cut the ballet. It stinks anyway"
great post
"What do you want me to do, draw a picture? Spell it out!"
I've never seen any other versions of Hello, Dolly and while watching it it never occurred to me that she was too young or too old or anything like that. If I had to guess I thought Dolly was in her thirties.
Great movie. Fun as hell to watch.
The Survivor Funny 115:http://www.youtube.com/user/TheFunny115#p/u/11/-0Jm-D3Qy1g
Thank you doug...that's EXACTLY how I feel.
She looked about 35, so to me, the age issue was moot - she could have been married at 18 and lost her husband at about 25 or 26.
"I'm the only person here I've never heard of" - Charity Hope Valentine, SWEET CHARITY
At the time, she was very popular and had just won an Oscar for Funny Girl.
shareAt the time, she was very popular and had just won an Oscar for Funny Girl.Streisand was cast as Dolly long before she won her Oscar. In fact, Hello, Dolly! was completed before Funny Girl was even released.
Hi DT! Thanks for pointing that out...I read a book a few years ago called THE HOLLYWOOD MUSICAL that trashed DOLLY and Streisand's casting in it. The author said that she won the role because she was "riding high on her FUNNY GIRL Oscar win", which annoyed me to no end, because I knew that was not why she was cast.
No matter what anyone ever said, I think Streisand is superb as Dolly. The only other actress of that time period that I would have enjoyed might have been Lucille Ball - she was criticized for MAME, but I think she would have been a great Dolly. And her singing - in my opinion, it was no better or worse than Carol Channing's.
I remember reading that Streisand was cast in both Hello, Dolly! and On a Clear Day before Funny Girl was released. I haven't checked on the latter, but the former is easy to verify. Yes, it is annoying when people can publish anything they just make up. It reminds me of what life was like with my family while growing up!
I can't put my finger on exactly what would be wrong in my mind with Lucille Ball in the film of Dolly, but maybe it has to do with her energy. One of the things I like about Streisand in Dolly is that she brings great energy to it--and I think the new opening number shows that Kelly, Herman and Lehman knew that and were counting on it--and by 1968 Lucy just didn't have much zip in her. (In my alternate universe, Judy Holliday would have been healthy and alive and in this movie.)
Two hours on the court and then an hour of constructive criticism.
Judy Holliday! That's a great "Dolly" idea!!
I thought of Lucy because of the comedy aspect, and she also can act well in serious moments. However - and you have a point - I didn't figure on the "energy" factor. Lucy did well with YOURS MINE AND OURS in '68, but that didn't require Dolly Levi full-tilt energy.
I agree with you on Streisand's energy - constantly flying around, the mile-a-minute rapid-fire line delivery, hoodwinking people into something before they even know what's happening.....all very, very "Dolly". It has always bugged me that she was always slammed for doing this role.
It has always bugged me that she was always slammed for doing this role.I know that she's too young, and someone else should have done it, but I have to say that among those first three films of hers, I prefer her in this most of all--because it's almost all comedy. Streisand's a great comedienne but put her in drama and she's heavy furniture. I can just about tolerate a serious line or two as a song cue for a ballad, but any longer than that is intolerable--and without the promise of a ballad to follow, forget it!
"Heavy furniture" - I love it!
Actually, the age issue didn't phase me. She looked about 35 (with the way she was costumed, wigged, and made up) and I figured that she could have been married at 18 (not uncommon in those days) and widowed at 25 or so.
I know I'm in the minority on that point though. I can certainly understand the point of those who felt it should have been an older actress.
"Please stop hitting me - it's SO lower-case"
"Heavy furniture" - I love it!I have to confess that I swiped that phrase from Elaine Stritch, who said of Ellen Burstyn after their sitcom was canceled: "Ellen Burstyn is one of our greatest dramatic actresses, but put her in a comedy and she's heavy furniture."
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