MovieChat Forums > Castle Keep (1969) Discussion > The Panthers

The Panthers

posted 17 years ago by Focke_Wulf
10 replies | jump to latest

Been many, many years since I've seen this movie. I recollect they had a decent mockups of Panther tanks in the final battle sequence, consistent to what was described in the book. A great yarn, by the way, if you haven't read it. I notice the newly discovered (by me) Internet Movie Car Database does not have a listing for this film. Any other sources on how they did the Panthers? Since the battle sequence was done at night, mock-ups on T-34 chassies seems most likely, especially if it was filmed in Yugoslavia. It was refreshing that Hollywood didn't opt for the cliche Tiger, or worse, M-48s posing as Tigers. Even M-24 Chaffees are more convincing with a little Schurz plating around the treads and bogies. All input appreciated.

[–] dj_schuby04 17 years ago

I have read the book and the book describes the tanks as tiger tanks, not as the panzer tanks we see in the film. I do remember reading somewhere that they could not afford to build tiger tank mock-ups, so they choose panzer tanks instead. As for what they used to create them, I have no idea.

[–] Focke_Wulf 17 years ago

Thanks for trying, old man. I've re-read that book about four times, and I'm pretty sure they were Panthers, at least in the final climax battle. I think when the men go to steal a tank from the Germans in town, they did snag a Tiger. I am ready to be disabused of that notion by anyone else well versed in this one. I did mean "Panther" by the way, not "Panzer," which is the generic German word for tank, as in "Panzerkampfwagen," or "armored battle vehicle." They took up naming their tanks later on in the war, hence Pzkw-V was the Panther, and Pzkw-VI was the Tiger I. Not sure if the King Tiger of the sloped armor and Porsche turret had a different Pzkw chassis designation. Those were true monsters, and you never see even mockups of those in the movies. I won't get snotty like some folks get on these boards, but offer the information in a hopefully useful format. A good basic reference work is "Tank" by Kenneth Macksey and illustrated by John Batchelor. Cheers!

[–] roger-395 17 years ago

Thanks for correcting the use of the word Panzer. Many people seem to think it was a type of tank when in fact it is a generic term for a heavily armoured tracked vehicle, or, tank. The King Tiger or Tiger II was given the official designation Panzerkampfwagen VI Ausf. B. The German name for the tank was Königstiger (translated to Bengal Tiger and currupted by the West to King Tiger). You probably already know the difference between the two versions but the most obvious was in the sloped armour on the Tiger II, which was also about 10 tons heavior yet still slightly faster.

[–] Focke_Wulf 17 years ago

Hey, rog, what's your linguistic source on Konigstiger translating to Bengal Tiger? I know that translations are not always literal, but in my quick scan of the German/English dictionary, Konig does translate to King. However, one could reasonably argue in the zoological sense that the Bengal tiger is indeed the king of tigers, being, I believe, the largest species of the family. Any true wildlife biology types feel free to chime in here, now. But would that have something to do with the variance in translation?

The Tiger II had that sexy turret, too, didn't it? I still think the Panthers are slicker looking rigs. And there is the pound for pound effectiveness that a somwhat smaller vehicle with sloped armor and a high velocity medium caliber gun will bring to the fray. Tigers could be unwieldy in close quarters.

I eat this stuff up with a spoon, by the way. . .

"I'm not from here, I just live here. . ."

-James Mc Murtry

[–] R011DaveAAA 10 years ago

Google translate will give Bengal Tiger for Koenigstiger. The literal translation is "royal tiger" as "koenigs" (note the "s") in that context means "royal" rather than "king's". King Tiger is not at all correct, but has never-the-less become the usual English designation for that vehicle.

[–] pzkpfw6 10 years ago

In your statement you keep saying "panzer tank". This makes no sense since panzer means tank.

[–] rjsm16a2 17 years ago

The tanks used in the movie were all T-34/85's. From what I remember they didn't have muzzle breaks on them during WW 2 so that was added later.

[–] Focke_Wulf 17 years ago

Thanks. It's been years, as I said, since I've seen this flick. Some enterprising soul posted a link to the trailer for this one, which I leave here:

http://video.google.com/viedoplay?docid=940682253793718263

The first time I went to it a week ago, it wouldn't play, but play it did tonight. You are right, they are T-34/85s, not even mocked up at all as they did in THE NIGHT OF THE GENERALS, KELLY'S HEROES, and SAVING PRIVATE RYAN. But they're still closer in look and feel to a Tiger, or for that matter a Panther, than just about any American tank you could try and squeeze past the eagle eye of the war movie fan. They are post-war versions, as you noted, with muzzle brakes on their 85mm cannons. But that wasn't just a Hollywood add-on, such variants came into use after the Korean era.

Makes me wonder about the location, which I'm not sure was addressed elsewhere on this board. I'm aware that in 1968, they filmed much of THE BRIDGE AT REMAGEN in Czechoslovakia before the Soviet invasion that ended Prague Spring put a kink in the production schedule. The presence of T-34/85s in this production would indicate an East Bloc site such as Yugoslavia, where KELLY'S HEROES was filmed a year or so later.

Now I'm gonna have to see if I can find this flick somewhere!

"I'm not from here, I just live here. . ."

-James Mc Murtry

[–] McStallen 17 years ago

Another poster said it was filed in Serbia- Novi Sad- it's all on another thread- talks about the fire that destroyed the set too

[–] captmagenta 15 years ago

YO!

Just watched it on cable... they were russian T-34/85s.

Probably because according to the trivia section, this was filmed in Yugoslavia which of course had sovbloc gear.

ALSO Koenigstiger is literally "KING TIGER", directly translated.