I've watched 3 episodes so far. I just watched Checkmate. I enjoyed the series up to this point, but Checkmate really sold me. I have a question about #2. What was the point of having different people play #2? Would it have been possible to create a better, more adversarial dynamic between #2 and #6 by using the same actor/actress? I realize there is some symbolism for the change (I don't think I have it completely figured out yet), but with a person nearly every episode, #2 doesn't seem to be a true enemy, nemesis, adversary, etc. of #6. Maybe this is cleared up later in the series, but I was just curious about other people's thoughts.
One idea behind that is to demonstrate the permanency of captivity and the pervasiveness of the State. Captors come and go, and they can be anyone, any agent of the State, but the prisoners remain the same.
The #2 role is also filled by different people because they are removed from their post due to failure to progress with the breaking of #6.
I think Number Two also represents the generic face of authority. The world is full of interchangable, self important people who give us orders. Bosses, politicians, police, teachers and many others. The faces change but they always want to tell you what to do and how to act.
1. Despite through the 70s and 80s being lumped in with "Arrival," "Free For All," "Dance of the Dead" and "Checkmate" as having a lot of scenes filmed during the first--and only principle photography--location shoot at Portmeirion, it was in fact done almost entirely in-studio.
2. There is this dialogue exchange:
Prisoner: Has it ever occurred to you that you're just as much a prisoner as I am? Leo McKern's #2: Ah, my dear chap, of course! I know too much. We're both lifers.
Some people coming up with an after-the-fact rationale within the finished series notwithstanding, that's pretty much impossible to interpret as anything but indicating that at the time this was filmed, McKern was expected to do a lengthy run of episodes, if not the entire series, as #2. Ian Rakoff, co-writer of "Living in Harmony" said so in his book, Inside The Prisoner, but given the specifics of his account (he came into the project rather late in production), I think he simply saw it in this dialogue as I already had.
Some people coming up with an after-the-fact rationale within the finished series notwithstanding, that's pretty much impossible to interpret as anything but indicating that at the time this was filmed, McKern was expected to do a lengthy run of episodes, if not the entire series, as #2. Ian Rakoff, co-writer of "Living in Harmony" said so in his book, Inside The Prisoner, but given the specifics of his account (he came into the project rather late in production), I think he simply saw it in this dialogue as I already had.
What utter tosh. The first episode was made and completed before any of the others. It was shown to the relevant vice-prsident of CBS, who said he approved purchase of the whole series on the basis of that one episode after Lew Grade met him to do some business for 1967/68, in London.
If you've ever watched it, you may have noticed that the Number Two changes two or three times in that one single first episode. Having a different Number two every week was an integral part of McGoohan's vision for the show, probably for the reasons the erudite Poster mentioned earlier, about bureaucracy and the self-important individuals who serve it best.
[Quoting me] Some people coming up with an after-the-fact rationale within the finished series notwithstanding, that's pretty much impossible to interpret as anything but indicating that at the time this was filmed, McKern was expected to do a lengthy run of episodes, if not the entire series, as #2. Ian Rakoff, co-writer of "Living in Harmony" said so in his book, Inside The Prisoner, but given the specifics of his account (he came into the project rather late in production), I think he simply saw it in this dialogue as I already had.
What utter tosh. The first episode was made and completed before any of the others. It was shown to the relevant vice-prsident of CBS, who said he approved purchase of the whole series on the basis of that one episode after Lew Grade met him to do some business for 1967/68, in London.
If you've ever watched it, you may have noticed that the Number Two changes two or three times in that one single first episode. Having a different Number two every week was an integral part of McGoohan's vision for the show, probably for the reasons the erudite Poster mentioned earlier, about bureaucracy and the self-important individuals who serve it best.
"What utter tosh" right back at you. Much of "Arrival" was shot on the first (and only principal-photography) shoot at Portmeirion, along with many scenes each of "Free For All", "Dance of the Dead" and "Checkmate"; they were subsequently completed back in the MGM Borehamwood studio. All four of those were begun and finished essentially simultaneously, and that is a fact not open to debate. You call your credibility as a fan/student/whatever of The Prisoner into very serious question by making a statement in direct contradiction to that very well known fact. Throughout the '70s & '80s "The Chimes of Big Ben" was lumped in with them, but this has been disproved. The only way your assertions beginning with "The first episode was made and completed before any of the others...." can be true is if that first-completed episode was indeed not "Arrival" or any of those four but another one, such as "Chimes". If you had ever watched "Arrival" you would know that #2 changes exactly once there, with George Baker replacing Guy Doleman, actor-wise. No more, not "two or three times" but just once. Please cease insinuating that I've never watched the programme, especially when in the same "breath" you make a statement that suggests you haven't watched it. Furthermore, that works against my position only given your claim that it and it alone was filmed first, which as I said before is something you should know better than. And neither you nor anybody else has come up with a reasonable alternative interpretation of the "We're both lifers!" exchange from a production perspective. I stand by those lines as evidence that "Chimes" was the first episode filmed.
If there was no original intention to have different Number Two's, why were three or four of them taken to Portmeirion and filmed there? Mary Morris was certainly on location, so was Eric Portman.... I'll let you rewatch the series yourself to spot the others.
My claim is that "Chimes of Big Ben" is the first episode produced, before they ever filmed anything significant at Portmeirion, before the shoot there with those various actors as #2. Your own claim "The first episode was made and completed before any of the others," requires (most of) some episode to have been shot prior to that. You can't have it both ways, M-L; it's just not physically possible. So pick one and admit to being wrong about the other.
I always thought the reason for different No. 2's was that it gave No.6 a different adversary who would attempt to use their own personal techniques to try and outwit him, each one believing that they would succeed where their predecesors failed. If it was always the same No. 2 then after several attempts they would be expected to doubt themself and become frustrated instead.
jzc008: I always thought the reason for different No. 2's was that it gave No.6 a different adversary who would attempt to use their own personal techniques to try and outwit him, each one believing that they would succeed where their predecesors failed. If it was always the same No. 2 then after several attempts they would be expected to doubt themself and become frustrated instead.
As reasonable as that sounds, that's all it is, reasoning. I repeat my direct evidence, dialogue from "Chimes":
Prisoner: Has it ever occurred to you that you're just as much a prisoner as I am? Leo McKern's #2: Ah, my dear chap, of course! I know too much. We're both lifers.
I do not see that this can be reasonably interpreted as intended in any way but literally, and therefore had to have been filmed prior to shooting at Portmeirion with #2 actors Eric Portman, Mary Morris, and even Guy Doleman (there's one shot in "Arrival" that is definitely both him and there!) and Rachel Herbert.
I do not see that this can be reasonably interpreted as intended in any way but literally, and therefore had to have been filmed prior to shooting at Portmeirion with #2 actors Eric Portman, Mary Morris, and even Guy Doleman (there's one shot in "Arrival" that is definitely both him and there!) and Rachel Herbert.
So, let's get this straight....
You believe they filmed Leo McKern as the intended permanent Number Two in Chimes just before they went to Portmeirion to do any filming.
Then they took two of the probably most expensive featured actors to Portmeirion to film them on location as other Number Two's, even though at that point they intended to have the same Number Two throughout..... oh... and of course they never bothered to take Leo McKern to Portmeirion at all....... ever...........
Yes, that all makes perfect sense.........
You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave............. Lifer......
I felt the concept that there was a change of plans on that point between finishing "Chimes" and going to Portmeirion was so clear that I did not have to say so. All you accomplish by pretending not to see the blatantly obvious is to make yourself look like an idiot. (Note to any and all moderators: Mirroring Thomas Jefferson's defense of referring to King George III as a tyrant in the Declaration of Independence, "It's true whether I say so or not; I might as well say so." And "might as well" is quite an understatement. Moor-Larkin's close-minded attitude has been problematical around here for quite some time.)
I felt the concept that there was a change of plans on that point between finishing "Chimes" and going to Portmeirion was so clear that I did not have to say so. All you accomplish by pretending not to see the blatantly obvious is to make yourself look like an idiot.
So, just to make it idiotically clear - your theory, based on one line of dialogue that you have extrapolated into comprehensive history, is that they filmed Chimes of Big Ben before they had filmed any other episode? They filmed it entirely in the studio creating sets in Borehamwood to imitate Portmeirion. Then, they went on location to Portmeirion.......
Hmmmm........
It is a matter of historical fact that the Everyman crew started filming in Portmeirion on 5th September 1966. Studio work on Chimes of Big Ben was done in November 1966. Not only did Leo McKern never go to Portmeirion, nor did the other star of that episode, Nadia Gray. Don Chaffey is on record as being the primary working director of the first five episodes and it is known that the last episode he worked on was Chimes of Big Ben, making that episode the fifth to be worked on.
Facts my boy. Darned inconvenient, but unavoidable I'm afraid.
"Known" by whom? You? You yourself quite recently indicated a belief that "Arrival" was filmed first all by itself, rather than concurrently with "Free For All", "Dance of the Dead" and "Checkmate", which has been widely reported and undisputed for decades. That is an unavoidable and inconvenient (for you) fact. Therefore, to say that there is no reason to believe your "factual" and completely unsupported assertions here is a gross understatement; there is good reason to dismiss anything you say.
tbrittreid , I have JUST finished watching this great series for the first time.
In the last episode, Fall Out, where Leo McKern again features ofcourse, McKern's #2 makes another reference to imprisonment. McKern's #2, when asked to speak to that masked jury in defence of himself, states he was 'kidnapped' and 'brought there for his talents' (Achievements in the outside world he touched on just before). That was no clearer statement, indicator, as to his status, how he ended up in his position and perhaps a number of others working for the organisation, including other former #2's and that retiring #2 who took #6's warning's about assassination seriously - from what he knew of his own circumstances, he had good reason to believe #6. Obviously they're all caught in this kind of web, and you have prisoners governing prisoners, prisons within prisons in a way. Makes sense really, as often these things in real life can be run on fear and the power of fear can even control some. And the whole degree absolute thing really focuses on that grey area where by the end #6 becomes the master and #2 the one who dies in prison. In another episode too - #6 picked up how that the threatening #2, 'the hammer's,' demeanour changed considerably when speaking with #1, he quivered with fear. And #6 used that to that #2's downfall ofcourse.
So that quote you are pulling from that earlier episode, it fits quite logically with the wider goings on, including/especially McKern's own character.
BTW When McKern's #2 returns for that second episode where 'Degree Absolute' is employed, McKern, when we are re-introduced to him, mentions in his dialogue with #1 on the phone, that he/they brought him back here for a reason, amongst his dialogue, which also includes he suggesting he's their best man, a good man. You get the strong sense that when he was brought back to the Island, he may not have been that agreeable to it, even brought against his will even. That's also kind of reflected in his early, frustrated, demeanour.
"If anyone wants me I'll be in my room" - Lisa Simpson
Well over a month and no further words from the usually unflappable Moor-Larkin. Being caught having made in fairly close proximity two absolutely incompatible factual assertions seems to have shut him up. Allow me to elaborate on the "Chimes..." filmed first theory.
Despite M-L's alleged "historical fact" (a term he badly abused on another thread here) starting-filming-date for "Chimes..." it was, as I previously stated, included for a good twenty years (at least) with "Arrival," "Free...," "Dance..." and "Checkmate" as having been part of the one major shoot at Portmeirion. Yet close examination shows that there are no more than four brief sequences that might have been filmed there and specifically for this episode.
1. A helicopter delivers the unconscious Nadia to The Village. Wide-angle shots of the chopper are definitely at Portmeirion. Actress Nadia Gray is recognizable only in one extreme close-up, obviously studio-shot, so she and the "Chimes..." script might not have been in the minds of the involved parties when this was filmed.
2. Nadia enters the water for her escape/suicide attempt. There are breakers on the beach, the only time it is seen other than more-or-less low tide. I for one cannot identify this beach, and for all *I* know, it might be on England's coast reasonably handy from the Borehamwood studio. Since most of this sequence is on a most unconvincing studio stage, the first thought is that it's probably in England.
3. The Prisoner and Nadia assemble and launch his boat. It's (supposedly) the middle of the night and low tide this time, and again I can't ID the beach, but it's probably the same as in #2. I mean, it is supposed to be the same beach, so why not film both scenes on the same one? No actor is truly recognizable except in extreme close-up, including the McKern/#2's face on the sail/tapestry!
4. Having learned the truth, The Prisoner approaches and re-enters Residence Number Six. McGoohan is wearing the blue windbreaker unique (in this series) to this episode, and the camera set-up is identical to a shot in "Free For All" wherein The Prisoner and the Eric Portman/#2 exit Residence Number Six to join the campaign crowd; there the camera pans to confirm the Welsh resort location, so this was also shot at Portmeirion (the sound stage versions of the outside of our hero's cottage [his word in "The Schizoid Man"] seen earlier in "Chimes..." are too poor to have been used if this was a perfect duplicate existing on the lot). It seems unlikely that they would know to use that other jacket if this shot was filmed at Portmeirion prior to any other work on "Chimes...."
Of those brief bits, only (as of current information) #4 was irrefutably filmed at Portmeirion and for "Chimes...." Yet the episode was combined with those other four as having been part of that one major location shoot. The most plausible explanation of this error is that these shots were filmed there after the bulk of the episode was already in the can. They knew to put McGoohan in the blue windbreaker instead of the standard Village jacket because they had filmed with it already; a stand-in for Nadia in the launching scene (and the swim?) was necessary and keeping her face out of shot resulted in the same thing happening to Patrick, but did they forget to bring the tapestry/sail to Wales?
Perhaps M-L did indeed see a reasonably credible source stating (as he described it here on Sunday, July 11, 2010), "The first episode was made and completed before any of the others. It was shown to the relevant vice-president of CBS, who said he approved purchase of the whole series on the basis of that one episode...." He then just assumed in his close-minded perceptions of "episode order" (demonstrated on several other threads on this board) that the episode referred to was the official opener "Arrival," which actually does not fit his initial statement at all. It would have to have been "Chimes...." Note that both of these and only these two have similar "Alternate Versions," requiring them to have gone through the post-production process ahead of the other three shot simultaneously with "Arrival" and any others. Could this have happened to "Chimes..." if it was shot after the Portmeirion Four? Logically, no. While the aforementioned pitch was being made to CBS, the idea of using McKern as #2 in at least a string of episodes if not the entire run was lost (whether McGoohan [or David Tomblin] simply came up with the changing #2s concept or McKern withdrew for whatever reason and thereby forced the idea in order to use his already shot episode), and being #2 became a temp assignment, reflected in the scripts and casting by the time the company went to Portmeirion.
I don't think the "lifers" line is literally intended to mean that this particular No.2 is a lifer in this particular village, more that he and No.6 are lifers, and prisoners, in the system they inhabit.
Call sheets and other contemporary production documents exist to tell us exactly when and where shooting took place. In any case, location shooting is almost invariably done before studio shooting in film and TV production. Location work is far less controllable and studio work can be far more easily adjusted to match location footage, and any unforeseen circumstances, than the other way round.
The order of shooting in the case of The Prisoner doesn't necessarily indicate the order of achieving a final cut. McGoohan deliberately wanted to leave the final editing fluid to the last minute as the series was still being developed as it went along, not least due to the late commissioning of some of the scripts and the fact that McGoohan had originally envisioned a 7 part series. He didn't want to lock the edits of the already shot episodes until he was sure they wouldn't conflict with the extra stories.
The ever-changing #2 was just one of the many things designed to confuse the villagers and keep them off-guard. Changing the authority figure forces people to keep up to date on who she or he is, which requires them to read the newspaper, which requires them to go to the shop and interact...
In short, it's an integral part of the village's game.
A slightly banal, but realistic proposition is that having multiple no. 2s gave us the opportunity to see some splendid British actors of the time giving what were essentially cameo performances, although masterfully done in every case.
It also helped to keep the series fresh - one reason why it still seems as fresh as a daisy all these years later. I am astonished at how fantastically good it still looks actually. I am not one who worries too much about the philosophical meaning behind the series (while not denying that it did have meaning). But whatever else you can say about it, it was - and remains - great television.
-- I am not a number. I couldn't even remember my number.
//It also helped to keep the series fresh - one reason why it still seems as fresh as a daisy all these years later. I am astonished at how fantastically good it still looks actually.//
Agree absolutely...each time I watch the series again, I'm struck by just how contemporary it still comes off, and how little, except in the most minor ways, it's dated at all. Certainly, thematically, the series remains just as relevant as it ever was; and I'd daresay in some respects it's possibly even more topically relevant now than it was when it was originally created. I don't compare too many television productions to literary works in terms of overall worth and enduring merit, but "The Prisoner" is definitely one of the rare few that warrant inclusion on the list.
I'd go so far as to say that the pointless 2009 'remake' is apt to look far more dated to audiences forty years from now than the 1967 original would appear to even the younger generations of viewers today.
Agreed! If any TV series has lasting literary & artistic merit, it's this one. Ironically, the fact that it's so firmly rooted in & representative of the 1960s doesn't date it in the least, as its essence is timeless & always relevant. It definitely captures the energy & creative ferment of that era in such a way that even the ephemeral trappings or pop culture still seem fresh. I really don't think it could have been made as well & as brilliantly in another other period of TV history.
Number 2 was not a person as such. Number 2 was a position within the village hierarchy.
Just like any other job, the person within this post was subject to change, and being as we never really know how long No.6 was kept there (years? not just 17 weeks) it's quite feasible that the person in that position would change.