MovieChat Forums > Persona (1967) Discussion > Why can't people admit when a film is st...

Why can't people admit when a film is stupidly ambiguous + meaningless?


This film is just confusing and vague for the sake of it. It contains a little psychological/philosophical dialogue to trick people into thinking it's some deep psychological masterpiece. People write huge essays about possible meanings to explain the movie, but the fact is that the movie doesn't really explain any of these meanings. It's easier to create a confusing and meaningless mess of a film, it's a sign of laziness on the part of the director.



~ Observe, and act with clarity. ~

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For whatever it might be worth, the film's theme as far as I can make out is the terrible burden of human consciousness. But for those who don't find that theme, for one reason or another, I think there's a great deal of artistry right on the surface of the film to appreciate. The film isn't all "deep" and "psychological".

And Persona seems like one of the least "lazy" films I've ever seen. Every frame and camera movement, every moment seems to have been the result of a great effort and striving on Bergman's part. Whether he has been successful at conveying his themes and ideas is left up to the viewer. I believe the film's refusal to "really explain any of these meanings" is one element of its greatness. (I can't remember when I haven't been a bit let down whenever meanings were "explained" or spelled out for me in a work of art.)

For some viewers this film will "mean" next to nothing. I on the other hand feel it means scarcely anything less than the world and as such is the greatest film (by my standards) I can think of or expect ever to see.


>: 4 8 15 16 23 42 EXECUTE

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I understood the pshycological themes etc, but it wasn't that exciting at all.

And yes, many of the techniques used in this movie is just to confuse stupid film students that likes every movie their failure of a teacher recommends.

Bergman is an overrated piece of schit. Pompous nazi douchebag

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I don't like to watch Sandra Bullock movies, but I don't ride her down on her imdb forum.

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I openly admit (ie. this thread) that I don't like psuedo-intellectual wannabe movies. It has nothing to do with being art house or not.



~ Observe, and act with clarity. ~

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I openly admit (ie. this thread) that I don't like psuedo-intellectual wannabe movies.
Are there films you regard as being genuinely intellectual films, as opposed to pseudo- wannabes?


>: 4 8 15 16 23 42 EXECUTE

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Yeah, if you think Bergman is "pseudo-intellectual" you're in some rarified academic air. You'd be hard pressed to come up with something more "genuinely intellectual" on film than his best work.

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Seriously, my first thought after I finished watching this was "what the *beep* did I just watch?". I think the erect penis and other weird meaningless images just add to the evidence that the director was trying to confuse the viewer for the sake of doing it.

I came on this forum and I find different theories about the movie, some of which I do not agree with at all and saw no indication of them being true throughout the movie... I'm wondering how people even came up with that stuff. Anyway, I agree with you.

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I'd recommend watching it again. I don't want to be the guy that says "you just didn't get it," but understanding this type of movie is a completely different skill than a typical movie. Confusing images like the penis which were meant probably more as a joke, and letting that be the basis for your analysis of the other images.
Give it another try, you might be surprised by how much you are able to put genuine meaning to.

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Jack White killed a man with his bare hands.... While singing and playing guitar.

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There's nothing complicated or anything deep about this movie. Basically what its about is a woman has an unwanted child, another has an abortion. Bergman tries to hint that they are the same person. They both didn't want a child. Alma talks about stuff to Elisabet while Elisabet is a zombie throughout the whole movie. That's it. And of course the director resorts to gimmicks in order to sell his movie as being deeper so film students can do a paper on him.

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One word: SNOBBISHNESS! From being "snob".

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Why can't people admit when a film is stupidly ambiguous + meaningless?
This film is just confusing and vague for the sake of it... It's easier to create a confusing and meaningless mess of a film, it's a sign of laziness on the part of the director.

- I really can't see why ambiguity would be a negative feature of a movie. It is pretty common for all kinds of artworks to be capable of being interpreted in several ways, even if only in having adult-only themes in an apparently child-oriented movie (for example, Shrek or The Simpsons).
- Meaning is obviously subjective. If you watch a movie and find it meaningless, then there are two possibilities: the movie is genuinely meaningless and anyone who claims to find meaning in it is lying; the movie has a meaning to some people, but not to you. The second explanation seems more likely, unless you can explain why people would bother lying about something like this.
- You may well be right that Bergman deliberately made the movie confusing and vague, in fact it seems very likely to me that this was one of his aims. Surely if he wanted to be completely clear about what he was trying to depict in the movie he could have done that quite easily.
- It seems pretty obvious from Bergman's other movies that he is a very capable director (apart from any other accolades, he has several movies - including this one - in the IMDB top 250). If Bergman was just being lazy, he could have explained the plot in an unambiguous, clear way with a straightforward dialogue between the two main characters. I doubt the result would have been as unsettling and thought-provoking.

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he could have explained the plot in an unambiguous, clear way with a straightforward dialogue between the two main characters.
Jesus Lord, I'm sure glad he didn't!!! :)

I doubt the result would have been as unsettling and thought-provoking.
Absolutely. It would have been a very different film, a far more conventional one, and in all probability not the masterwork (though some aspects would be the same, cinematography, editing, music, and such) it is.



Living is a form of slow suicide.

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Woah, woah, woah... I think you meant to post this in a David Lynch forum.

I do know what you mean, though. To be perfectly honest, I absolutely despise David Lynch films... not just because it's muddled, meaningless, and IMO quite dull, but because there are *so* many people who try to make themselves sound smarter than they actually are by ignoring any notions that imply his films are without purpose, and by arguing that instead, his films *do* have purpose, they just aren't immediately recognizable because they're abstract, deep, etc... which is, of course, complete BS.

I think that Bergman's films, on the other hand are much more concrete. I won't even pretend to imply that I fully "comprehend" Persona, but I'll make the argument that it utilizes purely aesthetically appealing art as well as a recognizable plot/storyline/purpose.

Of course, there is the counter argument that expression itself is purpose enough, which is why I don't go around flaming Lynch boards. I can understand why people look a some movies basically as moving paintings... I only start getting irritated when they lift themselves up by developing drawn-out interpretations based on ludicrously subjective speculations.

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[deleted]

Some of Lynch's work is great. Mulholland Drive and The Elephant Man are simply amazing. His more pretentious works, like Eraserhead and Inland Empire, I could do without.

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[deleted]

From time to time I come across people who are fans of David Lynch who draw parallels between his films amd Bergman's. I don't see it in any other than a general sense. I enjoyed Blue Velvet, but thought Mullholland Drive was an incoherent mess. And whether due to poor direction or a lack of talent, he tends to have too many performances that are mediocre or worse, such as Naomi Watts in MD.

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Why can't people admit different people have different tastes? You didn't like the film. I did. That doesn't mean either one of us is right or wrong. It just means our ideas of art are incompatible. Sheesh. Do you really believe YOUR opinion is the only valid one?

We'll see whose the filthiest person alive! We'll just see!

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Some people pay 1000000 for a but marking on a piece of paper. that doesnt make them smart or having good taste. there are different tastes and then there are bad tastes.

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All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for enough good men to do nothing.

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Honestly, this film isn't difficult to understand. It's not ambiguous, I think it's quite clear what Bergman is saying.

First, you must understand that Elizabeth is the person, and Sister Alma is the persona. There are plenty of indications of this throughout the film, in both content and form.

Elizabeth has an identity, she is an actress with a husband and son. She is quiet and contemplative because she is the external aspect of the person. Alma represents the inner turmoil, the self conflict. Elizabeth is studying her (the letter), just like anyone experiencing introspection.

Alma screams that she is constantly changing, this is because, while Elizabeth will never change in appearance, her persona is constantly changing. Alma leaving on the bus, right after shots of a film crew, indicate the transitive nature of that persona; Alma leaves, and, like an actress who has finished performing a role, Elizabeth's persona changes - Alma is no more. Elizabeth is an actress, but it's indicative of the personality of human beings in general - we are all acting, always fulfilling a role, and, in doing that role, we create a real, definable character of ourselves, through our actions - this is our persona.

Sister Alma is called 'Sister' Alma because, while the two aspects are actually one, Alma is the supervenient one, a kind of 'tag a long', the inner, sister, part of Elizabeth. In the one scene where Alma is seen with Elizabeth's husband, we see Alma, but this is superimposed with images of Elizabeth. We're seeing the persona, but the actual person is Elizabeth. This is why Alma suddenly realizes that it's her lover, because it is, and always has been.

Since Elizabeth's husband's name is left out, it's likely that the name Alma gives her fiance (can't remember it at the moment) is actually the name of Elizabeth's husband. (Seeing as they are two aspects of the same identity). The son that exists, despite the attempts to abort, is Elizabeth's real son; Alma's story about having an abortion is Elizabeth's persona, her conscience finding a way to hide itself from having a son, out of fear.

The film speaks in metaphor, this is a function of art. It's neither necessarily linear, in time, actual, dream - It's a film, it should be treated as such. The scenes are there to convey something - an idea, an image, a meaning - and Bergman uses form to do this in the most effective manner. It doesn't all have to make sense on a literal level, it's the experience that matters.

OK, bye, hope that helps someone.

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The definition of a 'pretentious filmmaker', in some dictionaries, is synonymous with Jean-Luc Godard.

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Beautifully & lucidly explained, Kamran-15!

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you just wrinkled my brain.

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I thought they were each trying to be eachother to escape themselves.

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I will begin my take on this thread and with Kamran's I think greatly mistaken take on this film by noting that Persona is arguably in a category of one when it comes to films and film history. Even in relation to other Bergman films it stands apart (although it would seem to have the most to do with the film that most immediately preceded it, The Silence).

In assessing Persona, one should begin by approaching it, contrary to the baseless charge of some here that Bergman's work here is lazy, as a film where essentially every frame adds to its meaning and value.

Where Kamran is right, but does not take it far enough, is with the simple statement that it is a film and should be treated as such. This is true in part on a literal level, as Bergman's opening and closing scenes make explicit reference to film as such - light, how light shining through the film provides a vision, but of what?, that then goes on to show a variety of images, and at the end in a sort of reverse process shows the light finally going out as the film ends. Bergman here is "saying" (or showing) that as a film the examination of the themes within it will be proceeding by essentially unexplained images and actions as filmed, and implicitly asking why this exercise is embarked upon, rather than merely addressed through language. Is film superior to examine those themes? Or is it merely a different way to do so than talking about those themes, or writing about them?

The next aspect of the film i think is important to recognize is that film is not necessarily tied to the narration of stories, and yet is experienced by the viewer in time, in what feels like a linear exposition. Film itself, obviously, has a linear nature. But is "what happens in" a film necessarily following a narrative structure tied to plot and development? Certainly not necessarily so. Kamran in that regard tends to view the film as one that exposes that Alma and Elisabet are to put it crudely the same person, with that person's persona (Alma) changing over time. Since the persona is transitory, in Kamran's view the end shows the persona we have seen during the film, Alma, depart, leaving Elisabeth. But we do not see Elisabeth with the "changed persona" if you will as the film ends, so I find that argument woefully lacking on that level, as it is on others.

While the film obviously concerns the concept of persona, I think too many look at the film in a primarily pyschological context. In that connection I think we should largely take the doctor's speech to Elisabet at essentially its face value. The speech takes up the issue of her psychological state, but disposes of it, and is never contradicted later in the film. The doctor says that Elisabet's muteness is not some manifestation of a physical problem or malady, and neither is it one rooted in mental illness. She instead explicitly states that she recognizes Elisabet's muteness is the result of a conscious choice, a questioning of her "fake" persona as an actress that leads her to avoid "acting" in real life, specifically by not speaking. This choice, the film shows, is actually empowering (although it is also unsustainable), and we later see Alma become unmoored, even briefly unhinged, by the challenge of Elisabet's silence.

Alma represents people who feel and see themselves as very much "in the world" in the Heideggerian since of everydayness. And it is true, as both Heidegger and the doctor acknowledge, that such world is for better or worse the one we live in. Elisabet's attempts to find deeper meaning may succeed, at least up to a point, by the approach she has taken, but that approach can only be temporary. At some point the world must be returned to, or one is left with the sole remaining alternative, which is suicide, whether literally or figuratively.

Elisabet's condition and her attempt to go beyond or underneath her previous relation to her own persona then plays out as an examination of the doubling or duality between her character and Alma.

I previously mentioned Bergman's The Silence, and a brief word about it here deserves mention. While the structure of that film is decidedly different, it directly addresses the inadequacy of language, even the ways in which language can be violent and destructive. But it also shows that the alternative can be, and is?, terrifyingly empty. In Persona, Alma feels compelled to keep speaking, to keep language going between the two women, not only to "help" Elisabet (which is Alma's job) but we see also an increasing sense that Alma hopes to use language to defend her own persona from the challenges felt by Elisabet's silent, powerful presence.

I think the critical part of the film, its crescendo if you will, comes rather early for a crescendo in terms of the usual structure followed in films. That critical portion, explicitly invoking the doubling approach, is in the sequence where the two women are shown, first Elisabet listening, then Alma talking, as Alma "describes" Elisabet's relation to her son. I htink what is going on here is that Bergman is examining how the implicit voyeurism of the film viewing experience only takes one so far in understanding, both in the specific and general senses. We explicitly see how the approach of doubling can only take us so far. Which image, Alma speaking or Elisabet listening, is the more authentic? And if the answer is the two taken together, how do we actually know even they are "true"? (Remember here that Alma's narrative is at least of questionable accuracy, of course. Do Elisabet's reactive images show more truth than Alma's words? And what do we make of Alma's images of her speaking after having seen Elisabet's reactions?)

Directly addressing theories of the film such as Kamran's, the scene ends spectacularly with a composite image of the two women's faces. But of course it does not literally end with such composition, but instead as the image cracks, like a mirror?, and the film is shown to burn. Among other things I think this hardly supports the view that the women are in fact two sides of the same person. What it instead does, I think, is show the limits of attempting to understand others. Even a virtual sublimation of the distinctions between two people, with an attempt instead to identify another as one with one's self, cannot be sustained, and end with a serviceable understanding of any truth.

Bergman is showing that the process of doubling as shown here involved for Alma a process where her personality, her persona, is dissolving. Elisabet's conscious choice as described by the doctor takes on an increasing aspect of violence, in this sense a virtually violent challenge to Alma's personality, as for example her letter, the writing of which did not require her to abandon muteness, dissected Alma's personality. Alma demands Elisabet speak, at one point leaves cut glass to perhaps get her to yell out (but only getting a whimper of pain - at least, we feel, Alma did get Elisabet to make a sound), and later, when she does succeed in getting Elisabet to speak, by the violent act of threatening to toss boiling water on Elisabet.

I think in conclusion the meaning of the film is rather pessimistic. For all the thinking that Elisabet felt justified her decision to go mute, and the rejection of her persona, both as an actress and in her "real" life, leads through her encounters with Alma to a recognition that behind Elisabet's ongoing rejection of the offer by Alma to rejoin everyday life, that a dropping off of our personas, our masks, will lead to violence and the destruction of our personalities. I say pessimistic if one views the attempt by Elisabet as one designed to obtain or have an authentic relation to the world, again in Heidegger's terms, as not only a worthwhile endeavor, but really the only way to get a true understanding of life's meaning. Perhaps this view is too pessimistic, though, if one accepts that in fact the choices we all make everyday, to maintain our personas, even when we think directly of them as masks hiding something, that they also serve in effect a necessary purpose.

Left purposely ambiguous by the visuals as the film approaches its end, seeing Alma leave the house, does not specifically indicate what happens next to Elisabet. But again we have no reason to think that the doctor's assessment was wrong in some sense. Either Elisabet will follow Alma's departure with a literal return of her own to the real world, meaning her everyday life, which in turn will include a choice to no longer be mute in a search for the authentic behind her persona, or she will stay there, either literally or figuratively as a form of suicide.

In other words, Persona is a film that acknowledges the element of inauthenticity in our uses of our own personas, attempts to get behind or underneath our personas, and finds that such attempt does not lead to any perfect understanding, but instead leads to psychological violence. This leaves the only way to go forward as literally her return to her everyday life, with her confidence battered, but the knowledge that staying with the attempt to get beyond her persona had become self destructive and unproductive, and must be left behind. This will also be the only way forward for Elisabet, as the film ends.

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[Spoiler Alert]

I see , it's been almost 3 years since your post.I just wanted to reassert this seems more plausible explanations.Doctor see turmoil between actress and her persona.Persona (Alma) is sure Elizabeth is stronger and cant cope with her mentally ; since Elizabeth exists longer than Alma(Persona changes with time).She's afraid she'll realize her existence is concoction of Elizabeth's consciousness.

Alma wants to be like Elizabeth ; she wonders if she could be like her if she tried.She thinks Elizabeth can be like her ; as she is figment of her reality and still be Elizabeth.(She says,"Your soul'd be much bigger.It'd overflow with me and you.") Letter to doctor is introspection of her own self (I like to study her ; her life concepts don't match with her own actions).Alma says,"You've used me , now you don't want me ; you're throwing me away"(Mostly Liz wants to shed this mask ; forget her past sins(infidelity,abortion(thinking about still-born birth)) etc.).

She is struggling to forget these things.At the end Alma wonders how long she'll last.When Liz drinks blood drops of Alma , is it more like they're merging together with Liz? (So even when Alma splits ; Liz still has her influence,innocence(?) ; they're one and same but'll fade away).

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