MovieChat Forums > The Fall of the Roman Empire (1964) Discussion > Maybe not fair to say, but the score was...

Maybe not fair to say, but the score was outdated


Dimitri Tiomkin was a decent composer, but I don't like the score on this film. In 1964 we had great composers like Max Steiner, Miklos Rosza, but they weren't hired for this. Tiomkin's score is way too dramatic and sounds old (I know this movie is more than 40 years old, but the soundtrack sounds more dated even than Gottfried Huppertz Metropolis or Prokofievs Alexander Nevsky).

So comparing Dimitri Tiomkin to Max Steiner, Miklos Rosza or later composers like Morricone and Goldsmith is not fair I think, but does anyone agree with me about the score?

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WRONG!

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I agree. That was the worst score I've ever heard. It was awful even by the standards of the day. The movie couldn't end soon enough for me, just cause my ears couldn't take it any more.


Free speech

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Then you must not have heard many film scores because there are many more (worse) particularly during the mid 60s' through the mid 70s'. In the 'Golden Age' Herbert Stothart head of the M.G.M. music department contributed twenty (20) years of mediocre scores. You may find our comments on Stothart in his message board. There are some real turkeys from him.

The score is a good one but there is something wrong and its with how it was cued to the film. It's off, out of time with the sequences as edited. If you listen just to the score you can appreciate its merits, but when you listen to it while watching the movie some parts are intrusive or just seem thrown on. The music timed to the arrival of Commodus to the Roman Forum works other sequences it just jumps in as if added as an aftethought.

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This particular score is too intrusive and too cheerful at the wrong moments. In a scene near the beginning, where Livius and Commodus talk in private for the first time, the music swells and booms, threatening to drown out their conversation.

In other scenes, which seem to call for a more serious, dramatic tone, the music sounds like a celebration. It's too upbeat.

Of course, I never noticed this back in 1964, at the age of ten. I thought everything in the movie was great!



We report, you decide; but we decide what to report.

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I think your post ties in with mine. Something went wrong in post production. For the most part the score does not jive with the scenes. We get the feeling that TIOMKIN wrote the score then seperated himself from the production.

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I TOTALLY agree! This is a movie I've loved since I caught most of it by accident on the History Channel several years ago. The score, however, almost ruins it for me every time I see it. It is a good example of a film composer not knowing when to be silent or, at least, quiet. Unlike much of the sword and sandal genre, "The Fall of the Roman Empire" contains many subtle and delicate moments. It is a film driven by complex characters and ideas but Tiomkin's score blasts through everything like a three-year old crashing pots and pans together. All of the sounds and tunes are so bombastic and obvious. And it never seems to stop! I remember the first time I got to see the film straight through. I kept wanting to yell 'Shut up!' to the music. Frankly, I don't think much of Tiomkin's scores for other films I've seen. I'm someone who actually likes the sound of old Hollywood film music, much of which sounds lush and brash to many people. Most of the film composers, however, knew how to tone it down and punch up their work with humor and pathos. I rarely hear any of that in Tiomkin. You are completely on the mark when you say his music sounds "old." I couldn't have put it any better. The music of Steiner, Rosza, Huppertz, etc. might be old but it rarely sounds dated. Tiomkin nearly always does. "The Fall of the Roman Empire" score is the worst however, in my opinion. I'm usually pretty puritanical when it comes to messing with completed films but this is one time I've day-dreamed about a new score for a sound film. Any thoughts on who would do a good job? Thanks for saying it so well. This has been bothering me for years! ( :

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I totally disagree. I guess my opinion on Tiomkin is about 180 degrees away from ellisc's (no offense, just a difference of opinion, which is what this is all about, right?).

I do agree that there are a few elements of this film's music that are historically out of place with ancient Rome (the balalaika effect, most notably), but that doesn't make the score "bad" -- how much music in films of the ancient world is truly authentic to the period? A reliable answer is "none". I think the score is appropriate to the film in general and its individual scenes in particular.

It is true that many times some portions of Tiomkin's scores (not just this one, but many others) come across as a little "bombastic", to use your word. But that's a matter of style, and I didn't find it as common, overwhelming or negative a quality in his work as you seem to. Tiomkin was equally capable of subtle and quiet work within his films, such as in all or parts of FRIENDLY PERSUASION, HIGH NOON, THE ALAMO, THE MEN, LOST HORIZON, countless others. His scores were rousing, but show great capacity for low-key music as well. From your statement you don't seem to like any of his music, whereas he's one of my favorites, so I think personal tastes play the determinative role in whether one likes this score. If you don't like Tiomkin at all, you won't like any individual score he wrote.

I'm surprised to see Tiomkin's music called "old", while other (superb) composers such as Rozsa and Steiner are deemed more suitable to TFOTRE. They were contemporaries, from much the same music background. And by 1964 Steiner was clearly past his prime; Rozsa was excellent but had written these soaring scores for innumerable similar epics (QUO VADIS, BEN-HUR, KING OF KINGS, etc., etc.), and his scores for such films sound very much alike. Tiomkin at least varied his "epic" music from, say, THE GUNS OF NAVARONE to 55 DAYS AT PEKING to THE FALL OF THE ROMAN EMPIRE and many more. His style was usually identifiable but his scores rarely sounded alike, which is not true of many others' work.

Tiomkin was one of the most honored and award-nominated composers ever, so I guess his work had to have some merit. Again, in the end this is strictly a personal opinion based on personal tastes, no "right" or "wrong", but in my humble opinion, his score for ROMAN EMPIRE was suitable and superb. It was, notably, the only aspect of this film nominated for an Academy Award.

Thanks for letting me sound off!

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I think you may have missed something about Tiomkin and what he intended for the score of this film. He was trying to capture the grandeur and depth of the Empire itself while injecting the love interest theme between Boyd & Loren. This film has been panned for its length, casting, and now its score. Tiomkin was a brilliant composer and certainly deserves credit for it. If it wasn't for this film Gladiator (what a joke) would never exist. My two favorite scenes from FOTRE are the parade of nations paying tribute to Marcus Aurellius and Commados theatrical entrance to the Roman Fastival on his celebration of being a GOD....Tiomkin nailed both scenes to perfection. Anyway its not that bad a film and if anything Anthony Mann used this film as a stepping stone for El Cid and Miklos Rozsa.

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Not only do I agree with you, lorimatt, but you happened to have chosen the exact same scenes, and their accompanying music, in FALL that are my two favorites as well. I always try to catch them both even if I can't watch the entire film. (I also like the very brief but lovely scene right at the start with Marcus and Timonides -- the sacrifice before sunrise, their dialogue, the setting, the music.)

But one correction...Mann didn't use this as a stepping stone for EL CID and Rozsa; CID was made first, in 1961, and FALL in 1964. Also, Tiomkin was hired not by the director, but by producer Samuel Bronston, who also had him write the scores for his 55 DAYS AT PEKING and CIRCUS WORLD. (Rozsa scored EL CID and KING OF KINGS for Bronston, both in 1961.)

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I agree with everyone!! First, as for being "old", well John Williams' music was "old" for Star Wars but fortunately that's what Lucas wanted and it fits wonderfully. Secondly, there are some scenes that Tiomkin nailed perfectly like the parade of nations, and there are other times when the music seems to overpower the scene, but don't know if that is just poor editing. Watching it now, and when the music is intrusive it does spoil some scenes.

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>>>If it wasn't for this film Gladiator (what a joke) would never exist.

Say what you want about Gladiator, but everything about that movie towers above the over-hyped TFOTRE in every respect. ESPECIALLY Hans Zimmer's score.



Free speech

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Although Tiomkin is my least favorite of the Golden Age film composers and I can understand this score not appealing to people these days, there is some great music here. The 'Fall of Love' theme is one of the best things Tiomkin ever wrote. I do think Rozsa's scores were even better and hold up better today.

But...

to say Hans Zimmer's score is far better, yikes!

Zimmer's score gets the job done, it has some nice moments, but it is a hodgepodge of different styles and sources (including a too obvious reworking of Holst's Mars) and lacks the originality of Tiomkin's score.

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Sorry! I read your thought-provoking response some time ago but never got around to posting again. You might not see this but I thought I'd go ahead and post again anyway. I love these kinds of 'conversations.' You're quite right about personal opinions and Tiomkin's music clearly works for alot of people. That's what matters most in the end. Also, I'm ashamed to say I haven't seen some of the films you mentioned. I'm basing my response to Tiomkin off of his scores for THE FALL OF THE ROMAN EMPIRE, STRANGERS ON A TRAIN and D.O.A. all of which I find overblown and lacking in good tunes. However, you jolted me when you mentioned HIGH NOON. I honestly did not remember that Tiomkin did that score, which I loved. Clearly, I have a great deal of work to do. Perhaps I should not have made up my mind based on only three scores, however much I (still) dislike them.
Again, you're absolutely right in seeing the matter of ROMAN EMPIRE's score as somewhat subjective but I did want to clarify two small things. First, while it is true that we will never know what music in ancient Rome sounded like, that wasn't totally my point. A composer can be as anachronistic as he/she wants for all I care as long as the music makes dramatic sense. To me, Tiomkin's score for this film just sounded completely wrong. For me, it did not, in any way, reflect the spirit or mood of the film. I should have said this more clearly. However, when a score is so out of tune with a film, I start to notice other things. In this case, I couldn't get over how 'un-ancient' it sounded.
Second, in regards to my comment about his music sounding 'old' I think I was, again, un-clear. I only meant that it sounded of his age rather than for all time (thank you Ben Jonson). Mozart's music is clearly from the 18th century but it doesn't sound stuck there as, say Salieri's does. On the other hand, the HIGH NOON score is a work of pure genius so I clearly need to hear more Tiomkin! Thanks so much for all the food for thought! ( :

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Hi ellisc -- I'm glad you posted because it drew me back to this thread and I was able to read all the subsequent (mostly out-of-sequence!) posts.

Actually, one theme of some posts that I do tend to agree with is that on occasion the music in FALL does seem either a bit miscued or inappropriate for a scene, likewise the drowning-out-the-dialogue complaint some have made. I touched upon this aspect broadly earlier but I think it has merit.

I agree with you that the score (or at least large swaths of it) sounds very "un-ancient". Earlier I had mentioned the balalaika, which is obviously misplaced, and other passages sound anachronistic, such as the orgy in Rome the night before the finale, which sounds 19th century Italian. I think they make for an interesting mood and are at least different compared to the usual music for such epics of the ancient world, so I give Dimitri points for trying something original anyway. But overall I do think his score makes dramatic sense and adds to the picture, not detracts from it, so we'll have to agree to disagree on that score [sic]! In fact, we may not be so far apart even on this as it may appear, since you seem to see some points of merit and I some problem areas.

For comparison, listen to Rosza's scores for BEN-HUR (1959) and KING OF KINGS (1961). The latter sounds so close to the former in so many passages that it's clearly a reworking of Miklos's AA-winning score for HUR. (There are of course some original elements.) Most of his epic music sounds very similar, whereas while Tiomkin's style is noticeable, he did try variations on his main themes.

But as to DT's other scores, start with his Oscar-winning music for THE HIGH AND THE MIGHTY and THE OLD MAN AND THE SEA to get an idea of his broader work. He wrote for Capra (LOST HORIZON, MR. SMITH GOES TO WASHINGTON, MEET JOHN DOE, IT'S A WONDERFUL LIFE), Hitchcock (SHADOW OF A DOUBT, I CONFESS, DIAL M FOR MURDER), Hawks (ONLY ANGELS HAVE WINGS, RED RIVER, THE THING FROM ANOTHER WORLD, THE BIG SKY, LAND OF THE PHARAOHS, RIO BRAVO), Stanley Kramer (CHAMPION, HOME OF THE BRAVE, CYRANO DE BERGERAC, THE MEN, and of course HIGH NOON), and also wrote such film scores as DUEL IN THE SUN, THE COURT-MARTIAL OF BILLY MITCHELL, GIANT, FRIENDLY PERSUASION, THE ALAMO, GUNFIGHT AT THE O.K. CORRAL, LAST TRAIN FROM GUN HILL, THE SUNDOWNERS, THE UNFORGIVEN, THE CORSICAN BROTHERS, PORTRAIT OF JENNIE, THE WESTERNER, THE MOON AND SIXPENCE, TOWN WITHOUT PITY, THE GUNS OF NAVARONE, 55 DAYS AT PEKING...I'm doing all this from memory, so I know it's a bit random and repetitive from previous posts, but you get the idea. In his career he had 24 Oscar nominations (15 for his scores, 7 for songs, and 1 as producer of a best foreign film nominee, TCHAIKOVSKY), for what that's worth, and won four, including his two for HIGH NOON, so again, someone thought he wrote quality stuff! The thing about Tiomkin for me is that even when I don't think a score quite works right, or is appropriate, I always find him an interesting composer. Some people on this thread have said his music distracts them from the picture, but I've never found that to be the case, even with a lesser DT score -- to me, it's an added point of interest, even if I find fault with it. (By the way, I do like his theme for D.O.A., and he also wrote scores for other films made by that movie's producer, Harry Popkin, such as AND THEN THERE WERE NONE and THE WELL.)

Anyway, thank you very much for your post, and the discussion, and perhaps we can resume it sometime, here or on another film's board!

hob

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I agree with all youse guys. The score subverts rather than enhances The Fall of the Roman Empire. Hmmm, who would do a better job? How about Basil Polidouris? He did the music for productions as far differing as Das Boot and Lonesome Dove, i believe.

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In general I tend t prefer the Music of Older Historical Epics, they actually try to sound like Music that would have been used back then.

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The Battle may be over, But the War has only Just Begun.

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"they actually try to sound like Music that would have been used back then."

Especially Miklos Rozsa's scores such as Quo Vadis.

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The worst musical choice was to play circus music as Boyd drags Loren off past the rioting crowds after she was nearly burned to death and as the bodies of others go up in flames.

I had to ask myself, when is the tiny car with all the clowns going to show up?

Over all, I love the set pieces and the cinematography of this film. Sure, it portrays Ancient Rome as clean and polished (not exactly fitting with the theme of moral and political corruption we have in the film)... but then again, it took HBO/BBC's _Rome_ the series to give us a truly gritty and lived in Rome.

Come to think of it, the score in the TV show was both more fitting and more authentic than FOTRE. I watched the last hour thinking, "This would be so much better if I could turn off the score" ... and it aggravated me to the point that I had to come here and vent about it. Never had to do that on IMDB before.

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I personally like it. I don't think it detracts from the story, but I haven't gotten to the "circus music" after Loren is saved. I'd buy it as a soundtrack if I could.

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