Sorry for the delay in responding, mira943; I just now happened to look back at this thread and found your response of July 21.
I enjoyed Zorba the Greek, but I certainly wouldn't consider myself infatuated with it or overly sensitive concerning it.
It seems to me that one of the major themes in the story is the difficulty in understanding a different culture and its mores.
Here you have an isolated village, with only occasional contact with outsiders; a community with its own structure, its own way of doing things, its own expectations of its members. It has a natural organization - a leader; a desirable young widow who rejects all advances; an infatuated young man; even a village fool. Sexual tension is palpable throughout the entire male community. The interplay between the unavailable widow, unreasonably so in their eyes, and the infatuated youth, is a drama that the men encourage for its own sake, to see where it might lead. It's something of a game for them, a rather bitter one.
Although we hardly ever see them, because other than old crones the village women stay safely out of sight except to attend church, nearly all the adult men are married - but still resentful of the widow's unavailability and rejection. Being widowed and alone, she must go out in public, and interact with these men, so that she is a constant reminder of their desire and their resentment.
Madame Hortense is an outsider, a foreigner. She is not one of them, and no one pays any attention to her, other than curious children drawn to her strange and exotic ways, including music played outdoors, and the covetousness of the keening crones jealous of her exotic worldly belongings.
Into this world suddenly come Basil, and Zorba. There is no connection at all between Basil and the villagers, other than his position as owner and "boss". They cannot ignore him as they do Madame, since he is their paymaster; but he otherwise remains entirely irrelevant to their village life, with its structure and its sexual conflicts.
Zorba is another matter. He is Greek, but not from here. He is and remains an outsider; he takes no part in village life, and is not expected to. He sizes up and understands the dynamics of the village, but is neither welcome to join in, not wants to do so. In their eyes he is associated with Basil, another outsider, and also one who shares Basil's authority over their employment.
Not the biggest, but by far the most significant, gap in communication and mutual understanding is between Basil and Zorba. They must learn to get along and to make attempts to understand each other; they learn to respect and develop an affection for each other; but they can never be true "friends" and companions in any sense that we would understand these terms - the differences in their life experiences and attitudes and expectations are too great. This is what the movie is really about.
Zorba recognizes that Basil has no concept whatever of the dynamics of the villagers' societal structure and mores, and he tries to protect Basil from his ignorance.
Basil vaguely understands the inappropriateness of his showing any interest in the widow, but more, he is simply uninterested in getting involved with anyone in the village, or in starting any sort of sexual relationship. However, he has no concept of the ongoing sexual dynamic involving her and the men in the village. She, on the other hand, has also misread the precariousness of her own position, and the intensity of the men's jealousy concerning her. She is aware of it, of course, but perhaps she imagines there might be some more safety in a liason with an outsider, who is also the boss, more so than with any of the village men, most of whom are married in any case; and Basil is also, in any case, the only man who has aroused her interest and natural desire.
So assuming that I've already answered Alwood's question #1 satisfactorily, in my earlier post, the answer to question #2 is that the whispering is part of the same drama, the same vicious game, spurred on by their vindictive jealousy. They were just "innocently" causing trouble, but could never have expected the youth to go off and do anything so rash as to drown himself. I would say yes, something is very definitely lost in translation between Cretan and Western mores. The movie expects the viewer to understand this.
Question #3: The stoning vividly illustrates this difference in societal mores. The widow, not the whisperers in the tavern, is held responsible not only for the boy's death, but also simply for betraying the unspoken rules and expectations of appropriate behavior - the widow belonged to them and their community, the women as well as the men.
The villagers have no interest in Basil; he is not one of them. He is an outsider; he couldn't be expected to understand. They simply don't care about him. His being their putative "boss" has nothing to do with it.
As I said earlier, Zorba understands what is going on; he understands perfectly the villagers' reaction. But he too is an outsider. Other than the authority he is able to impose with his strength and skill at fighting, he carries no moral authority whatever in this purely intra-village matter. He could not possibly continue to protect the widow from the wrath and vindictiveness of the villagers at any time after this initial episode, so in fact their revenge would have been a foregone conclusion in any case, eventually if not now.
I thought I had already given an adequate explanation of question #4, but you seem to be dissatisfied with it.
What might Zorba and Basil possibly have said to each other? Basil is shocked, and still does not fully comprehend quite how this all came about, but he does mostly understand it, and is beating himself up for his role in precipitating it. My impression is that Zorba was unaware of the liason until after the fact, but even if he had recognized the possibility of it, and he certainly would have understood its danger and the probable consequences, I think he would have felt it could not have been his place to warn Basil beforehand. Moreover, each of the two men now understand exactly what is going through each other's thoughts. Remember that Zorba and Basil respect and like each other, different as they are, but they are in no sense "buddies". Speaking about what happened, first, is unnecessary, and second, would be embarrassing - humiliating, really - to both of them. Neither of them is going to forget it; it will always be there between them; but any discussion would be far more damaging than helpful to their relationship. And so by unspoken mutual agreement the subject is never again mentioned.
This all seems so obvious to me, and I think it has been equally as obvious to anyone I've ever talked with about this movie, so I find myself being surprised by the incomprehension expressed.
I hadn't intended to be rude to Alwood, but I can see that my response may have read that way. I do think that in general, when one has questions about a movie, it's usually a better idea to read through all relevant posts looking for insights before posting more questions that have probably already been addressed.
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Imdb11168
15 years ago
Well, that answer was pretty well thought of, and i cant say that i disagree to much you say, except for 2 things, which i feel are not reality.
Im Indian, and theres a lot of *beep* like this happening in the rural villages of India, but i know the level of ignorace in these villages. The village in Crete in the movie, was pretty backward and poor....etc etc as well, but there is some level of education and, well, a slight degree of sophistication ( in comparison with villages of the third world ) It seems a bit out of character for the men of the vilage to have gone to those lenths of watching a brutal murder ( these scene reminds me a bit of Malena )
I also feel the movie would have been more complete if there had been just a one minute scence showing some human emotion on the part of Bates and Quinn - about the wodows death.
To that extent i would agree with Alwood, though you have certainly bought a lot of clarity as well
even monkeys fall from trees
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kaream
15 years ago
You're right, mira, there are definitely similarities with Malena in this regard. In Malena we're mostly, but not entirely, seeing events through the eyes of the boy - especially in his fantasy sequences that were all cut out from the general DVD release, if you might have ever seen an unexpurgated copy of that movie. Still, the unwanted attentions of all the men as Malena walks around town are obviously exaggerated even beyond what the boy would have perceived; while on the other hand, I got the feeling that the attentions of the teenage boys, and especially the attack by the townswomen, were not exaggerated but were entirely realistic. (If you haven't seen the uncut version, there are some clips and stills available at http://www.celebritymoviearchive.com/tour/source.php/2859.)
When you say you think that Zorba would have been more "complete" with Basil and Zorba showing some human emotion following the widow's stoning and death, of course this is what the audience will expect; and by going against viewers' expectations, showing no such reaction, discussion, emotion, the director is forcing us to think through WHY this should be, and to analyze more closely just what thoughts are going through their heads, to consider more the actual relationship between the two men; to understand how it would have been humiliating for each of them for either to have said anything about it.
My feeling is that the way Cacoyannis handled this was much more effective than if he had beat his audience over the head with obviousness, satisfying viewers' expectations in typical Hollywood fashion. A little subtlety can go a long way in movie-making.
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kaream
15 years ago
Sorry, I overlooked your first point. The reason for the reaction by the townspeople, both men and women, was only partly because of their jealousy and feeling of betrayal by the widow's accepting Basil as a lover, which by itself would probably not have precipitated such a radical response. But the death of the infatuated youth, for which the men cannot accept any responsibility, instead laying it entirely on the widow, calls for nothing less than blood revenge. Against the widow only - Basil, to them, is entirely inconsequential in this particular drama.
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siukong
13 years ago
This explanation doesn't seem right to me. You say it's a matter of different societal mores, but doesn't religious morality come into play here? Crete was/is predominantly Greek Orthodox (and they seemed to be pretty serious about it - that scene shows at least half a dozen bystanders crossing themselves). According to the little research I've done, the Greek Orthodoxy is like Catholicism in that they view suicide as a grave sin (on a par with murder since you're taking a life that God has given). So isn't the youth himself the one responsible? I can see his immediate friends and family being angry enough to blame the widow, but not the whole village. Yet they either stand by silently or actively support her lynching.
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kaream
13 years ago
Well, that's one way of looking at it. But suicide is a grave sin in virtually any religion, and one that priests tend to take more seriously, as a sin, than ordinary people who may be shocked and upset, but unlikely to be worrying about its sinfulness as such.
Of course people are crossing themselves - they're about to take blood revenge and kill a woman. If you're a believer, you'd better cross yourself. (Or even if you aren't particularly religious, since crossing oneself is more a habit than a true sign of exceptional piety.) Anyway, most people compartmentalize - church is one thing, real life is another.
Personally I like the response made below, by filmfanaticNorCal, "also to cover up their own guilt in teasing the poor guy who drowned himself." This is another extremely important factor - they never stopped teasing him.
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robtakendall
15 years ago
Kaream, that's an excellent explanation of all points. I saw this movie when it first came out and had wondered about several things that you covered here. Thank you.
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