MovieChat Forums > Doctor Who (1963) Discussion > 12 Regenerations: an arbitrary number?

12 Regenerations: an arbitrary number?

posted 8 years ago by Dr Wily
9 replies | jump to latest

Is the whole 12 Regenerations of a Time Lord somewhat arbitrary?

In The Five Doctors, the Time Lords offer the Master a whole new life cycle in exchange for his help in rescuing the Doctor. Now, if the Time Lords really could do this for the Master, then surely they can do it for other Time Lords. Which sort of begs the question of the limitations of 12 Regenerations.

Plus, on NuWho haven't they already tackled the limitations of 12 Regenerations and gotten around it? If so, I've forgotten exactly how :) but I thought they had already done it.

[–] timmdoolen 8 years ago

Dr W, I think this is somewhat addressed in "Brain of Morbius", even though at that time the regeneration limit hadn't been set.

From part 3 (talking about the elixir that extends their lives indefinitely):

Doctor: We don't take it regularly like you. Otherwise, we'd fall into the same trap.

Maren: And what trap are we in?

Doctor: Immortality. You must have been old when the Elixir was discovered. How many centuries have passed while you have remained unchanged? How long since anything here changed?

Maren: Nothing here ever changes.

Doctor: Exactly my point. No progress.

So I feel that the 12 regenerations was an artificial rule adopted by the Time Lords so that their culture/technology/society progresses and doesn't eternally stagnate.

It is also still unknown in the TV series if *everyone* on Gallifrey regenerates, or only Time Lords who have presumably completed academy training, or some other permutation in between. We have only ever seen full-fledged Time Lords regenerate up to now (unless memory fails me), so perhaps it's reserved only for those elite who can complete academy training.

Plus, on NuWho haven't they already tackled the limitations of 12 Regenerations and gotten around it? If so, I've forgotten exactly how :) but I thought they had already done it.

There's no on-screen evidence for that, except what you already said - the Time Lords can apparently just give someone a new regeneration cycle if they see fit, as they did with the Master in 'Five Doctors' and with Matt Smith's Doctor in 'Time of the Doctor'. Of course that makes the regeneration limit a soft limit, not a hard limit, so we can only speculate why there is a limit at all.

[–] raventhom 8 years ago

Shada seems to say 12 is the limit, but since it never actually aired, or since the novel is the place where I read it, is it considered fact?

[–] alpha128 8 years ago

Shada seems to say 12 is the limit, but since it never actually aired, or since the novel is the place where I read it, is it considered fact? - raventhom

Actually, it was "The Deadly Assassin" that established twelve as the limit.

ENGIN: What about his character?
DOCTOR: Bad.
ENGIN: Oh, Doctor, could you please be a little more specific?
DOCTOR: Yes. He was evil, cunning and resourceful. Highly developed powers of ESP and a formidable hypnotist. And the more I think about it, the less likely it seems.
ENGIN: What?
DOCTOR: Well, that the Master would meekly accept the end of his regeneration cycle. It's not his style at all.
ENGIN: But that's something we must all accept, Doctor.
(Engin hands the Doctor a drink.)
DOCTOR: Thank you. Not the Master. No, he had some sort of plan. That's why he came here, Engin.
ENGIN: After the twelfth regeneration, there is no plan that will postpone death.

[–] mindbait 8 years ago

In The Five Doctors, the Time Lords offer the Master a whole new life cycle in exchange for his help in rescuing the Doctor. Now, if the Time Lords really could do this for the Master, then surely they can do it for other Time Lords. Which sort of begs the question of the limitations of 12 Regenerations.

Maybe it's like a heart transplant... it's possible, but it doesn't always work and it's not like you can just hand them out to everyone because there's a limited amount available

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New song "Where was I?"

[–] paulbeardsley 8 years ago

Is the whole 12 Regenerations of a Time Lord somewhat arbitrary?

Yes.

In The Five Doctors, the Time Lords offer the Master a whole new life cycle in exchange for his help in rescuing the Doctor. Now, if the Time Lords really could do this for the Master, then surely they can do it for other Time Lords. Which sort of begs the question of the limitations of 12 Regenerations.

Consider the effect on society of everyone having a second set of regenerations.

Or consider the real world. If a large number of people could suddenly live twice as long, how would that affect pensions? Life insurance? Retirement age? Consider the illnesses that are treated now that in the past we didn't even know about because people didn't live long enough to develop them.

Alternatively, consider that fact that regeneration makes no sense and only exists to keep the show running.

Plus, on NuWho haven't they already tackled the limitations of 12 Regenerations and gotten around it? If so, I've forgotten exactly how :) but I thought they had already done it.

See The Time Of The Doctor.

So this is permanence, love's shattered pride.
What once was innocence, turned on its side.

[–] louiseculmer 8 years ago

12 regenrations isn't very many since each one only seems to last a few years.

[–] Dr Wily 8 years ago

I make the argument the Doctor goes through his regenerations faster because he's always putting himself into dangerous situations where he might be required to regenerate. Most Time Lords are passive observers, but the Doctor actively fights evil. As such, there are violent consequences sometimes.

Take the First Doctor. He went through quite a long time before his first regeneration. We don't know really how old he was when stole that Type 40. And he appears to have been hiding on Earth for some time, without leaving it until forced to.

Although it does a beg question. As far as I know, the First Doctor is the oldest looking Time Lord shown in a Classic Who story. So, that seems to indicate the others have regenerated just to avoid looking old?

[–] louiseculmer 8 years ago

well, when dr who began nobody thought of regeneration, the Doctor was just a brainy old man, nothing supernatural about him. had william. Hartnelll been well, he might have continued in the role for many years, and regeneration would never have come up. To me, the only way regeneration makes much sense is if an old man regenerates into a young one, to give him a longer lifespan i suppose, but although patrick. Troughton ws twelve years younger than William hartnell, Jon pertwee was actually a year older than Patrick troughton, and i think Colin baker was older than peter davison, and sylvester mccoy was older than Colin Baker. So none of it makes any sense at all really. but then it never did. Even at the age of ten, which i was when. Hartnell regenerated into troughton, i knew it was a load of nonsense really.

[–] mindbait 8 years ago

Well the argument is always that Regeneration is a bit of a crapshoot, you don't know if you're going to get a young, old, male, female, black, white body.. but arguably it doesn't matter what the visual age of the body is, I'd imagine it being like those clothes that are purposely faded or 'distressed', that pair of jeans looks worn and weathered, but it's actually brand new

We're yet to see someone regenerate into a child though, so maybe you develop your regenerational ability with puberty? deeper voice, more body hair, ability to change your physical form

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New song "Where was I?"