Colin Baker: wrong time, wrong place?
Does anyone get the feeling that if Colin took on the role of The Doctor at a time when Michael Grade was not in charge of BBC1 he would had have a much longer run?
shareDoes anyone get the feeling that if Colin took on the role of The Doctor at a time when Michael Grade was not in charge of BBC1 he would had have a much longer run?
shareNice fellow, but I'm just not sure he was right for the role. And you can't blame it all on that *beep* costume, despite how tempting that might be.
I think someone like Robert Hardy would have brought off the role of the antisocial sixth Doctor much better.
ant-mac
Not leading man material. None of JNT's Doctors were.
shareHe may have been cast because he'd be good in panto.
stfu about fking avatars already.
[deleted]
Edward Tudour pole would have made a brilliant doctor.
shareThe BBc were all set to cancel the show after Tom's last season but they were desperate for a starring vehicle for Davison. JNT probably tried to kill two birds with one stone bu casting him.
shareHe was a big lump with a smug face and a squeaky voice, and he delivered each of his lines as if he expected applause. Didn't help.
stfu about fking avatars already.
Not with that introductory story ending the season and the hideous outfit(the cat badge was a nice touch from Colin Baker though.) He is dressed awful, has a nasty character to his Doctor, and his early stories had a dark and oppressive tone that would put off many a department head. So I think Michael Grade wouldn't have been the only one upset about the new direction John Nathan Turner wanted. Would he have lasted longer though? I guess he might, but there would still have been more oversight in the show.
shareWhat the hell, did Baker actually say that about Capaldi and every six Doctors? I seriously doubt Capaldi even watched Colin Baker's era, he was a fan of the Pertwee era.
shareSad to see so many negative responses to Colin's Doctor. I guess he'll always be the black sheep of the Doctors.
I can't say if Colin would have been ridiculously popular or not, but the following facts need to be taken into consideration when looking at how his Doctor failed.
1/ History is written by the winners: In this case sadly the winners are the people who wanted Who finished. The people at the BBC, Jonathan Powell, Michael Grade have through things like Room 101 have been able to present their image of "DW finished because it was crap and Colin was awful" over the years. Sadly because JNT is dead and also because many fans (like the unprofessional Restoration team who have never presented any kind of tribute to JNT which is shameful) still hate JNT. They are only to happy to go along with Grade and Powell's narrative and pin all the blame on JNT. Added to that finally Grade and Powell's story is an easier one for hack journalists to play up. A show finished because it was crap.
Thus it becomes received wisdom that Colin's Doctor was an utter failure from start to finish.
The truth of the matter is different. Colin's first season was popular with viewers. It averaged out with 7 million viewers and decent audience appreciation scores. Now that's not Dalekmania levels of popularity but at the same time its perfectly resepectable. Particularly for an old series. Also on top of that the show was still popular abroad and very well respected among the public and the industry.
When Grade took it off the air it was solely down to his own personal dislike. The shows cancellation made front page news, and Grade was routinely mocked on tv, with one presenter even saying she'd choke him and that every actor in the country wants to be in DW.
It was only after the 18 month hiatus, when it returned with no advertising, in a different time slot, and opposite the A-Team, a new, heavily promoted show that Who's viewing figures dropped. Even then though I might add that they still weren't as low as Tom Baker or William Hartnell or Patrick Troughton's last seasons were! Colin was made the fall guy however and canned, but even then it took another 3 years opposite Coronation Street, no advertising and the prices of its stories being raised abroad to the point where no one could afford them before the Beeb dared to try and finish it again.
Thus regardless of anything else I don't think that you can say that Colin or Sylvester for that matter, or yes even JNT were responsible for the shows cancellation. The knives were out for it, and TBH I doubt that many other producers or actors would have been as devoted to a show that the Beeb wanted finished for as long.
2/ The reason he was cast is not as bad as people make out: People often like to make out that Colin only got cast because he was entertaining at a wedding. But that's not fair.
To start with the Doctor is a personality part. You need someone who is quite eccentric in real life and will make the role their own. However obviously you need to make sure said person can act too.
Now in Colin's case JNT obviously knew he could act. Not only was Colin a big star, but he had worked with JNT before. Thus when JNT saw that he was also a larger than life presence he decided to cast him.
This is actually no different than to how Tom Baker was cast. Barry Letts met with him and based on Tom's crazy personality said to himself "this man would be an exceptional Doctor just as long as he can act, I need to know he can act" and then went to see him in a Ray Harryhausen movie. After that he was confident in his acting abilities and cast him. In JNT's case it was the same thing except that JNT knew Colin could act before hand.
3/ His ideas for the Doctor weren't so radical: Colin wanted to make the Doctor a bit darker and edgier, but soften him up over time. We'd see the same thing replicated in Eccelston's Doctor and it proved to be successful. Obviously in Colin's case they went to far, but still I don't think it was a bad idea in theory. I think that had they been given a proper second series instead of Trial and smoothed things out then Colin's Doctor would have been perfectly likable. He already IMO had calmed down and settled in by his third or so story.
4/ His comments about Capaldi were a joke: The whole every six Doctors they get it right thing was just a little joke like his "technically I'm still the Doctor as I never did my regeneration scene" I will admit he does need to get some new jokes, but he's hardly the first celeb to tell the same stories, jokes at conventions all the time. Ever seen an interview with Paul McCartney? My god! That guy rehashes the same stories about John all the time LOL.
Still anyway Colin obviously didn't mean any of it (Patrick Troughton was his favourite for starters and doesn't fall into the every 6 Doctors rule) Colin also didn't initially compare his Doctor to Capaldi's. Plenty of other people did and when it was brought up to him he again jokingly said that he's not sure if Capaldi would be delighted or utterly horrified to be compared to him.
5/ JNT's worst excesses were kept for him: I do defend JNT. By and large I think he is an unsung hero, but at the same time its true that he did do a lot of sh!t as well. By Colin's time I think he was at his most self indulgent. The success of the Davison era, the fact that he had managed to make Who popular like never before around the world (particularly in America where it had always struggled to find an audience) the adoration from the fans went to his head in Colin's time and by all accounts he became more difficult to work with and more demanding.
Thus he began to enforce his way on people which did hurt Colin, like the costume. However after the cancellation crisis and Saward stabbing him in the back, JNT I think got a bit of a shock and calmed down for McCoy's era. Davison got a young, enthusiastic JNT, McCoy a more careful, experienced JNT, but Colin got him right in the middle of his worst phase.
Thus all of these factors I think its fair to say would have hindered any Doctor. Had Colin come at another point could he have been successful? Yes I think so, but then who knows, who nose?
1/ History is written by the winners: In this case sadly the winners are the people who wanted Who finished. The people at the BBC, Jonathan Powell, Michael Grade have through things like Room 101 have been able to present their image of "DW finished because it was crap and Colin was awful" over the years.
Sadly because JNT is dead and also because many fans (like the unprofessional Restoration team who have never presented any kind of tribute to JNT which is shameful) still hate JNT. They are only to happy to go along with Grade and Powell's narrative and pin all the blame on JNT.
Thus it becomes received wisdom that Colin's Doctor was an utter failure from start to finish.
It was only after the 18 month hiatus, when it returned with no advertising, in a different time slot, and opposite the A-Team, a new, heavily promoted show that Who's viewing figures dropped.
Even then though I might add that they still weren't as low as Tom Baker or William Hartnell or Patrick Troughton's last seasons were!
3/ His ideas for the Doctor weren't so radical: Colin wanted to make the Doctor a bit darker and edgier, but soften him up over time. We'd see the same thing replicated in Eccelston's Doctor and it proved to be successful. Obviously in Colin's case they went to far, but still I don't think it was a bad idea in theory.
I agree with everything burun100 said. He got it perfectly what happened. Fans as well as the media tend to rely on their own bias against the JNT era. burun100 understanding of this era is more reasonable and accurate than all these conspiracies and wild theories such as Warriors of the Deep irreversibly destroying the Doctor's character.
shareFans as well as the media tend to rely on their own bias against the JNT era.
all these conspiracies and wild theories such as Warriors of the Deep irreversibly destroying the Doctor's character.
I still think that's testament to how little viewer loyalty there was to the show. I think if the show had gone out strong with the previous season, then the show's return would've been seen as an unmissable event. Just like when Red Dwarf 6 ended on a superb cliffhanger, before a three years hiatus. I think most viewers wouldn't have missed the first new episode for the world.
The evidence of the ratings for Trial demonstrates otherwise.
Usually in those previous instances, when the talk of whether to continue or end the series came up, it usually became a case where ultimately it was decided that they didn't have or couldn't provide anything worthy to replace it with.
The problem as I see it is, with Colin's run, and also to a degree with Davison in Warriors of the Deep, what JNT and Saward had done to the show was make it one that now outright defied the audience to look elsewhere to find a better hero, which they could now find in abundance.
Doctor Who was no longer irreplaceable. It had destroyed what had made it that.
I do firmly believe if there was a strong case in defence of JNT's decision, either the Restoration Team would invoke it, or their many fan critics would.
Well I have extremely strong opinions about that, I feel very very sympathetic towards John because what he’s done for the programme is ten times what anyone else has done for it. There’s a tiny, tiny coterie of fans who are very frustrated because they’ve never been producer of the programme, they’re mainly in Britain, but there are two or three that I could name but won’t, in the UK, who have made it their lifetime job to do everything they can to sabotage John Nathan-Turner, and I think it’s miserable, petty, ghastly behaviour and I think they’re worms that ought to be trodden into the ground. (laughs) Don’t mess around, Colin, tell them what you really think.
But John was the producer for a very long time, and he’s responsible for it being over in the US and he came over and marketed it, he always cared about the fans, he always made sure people like myself and Nicola came to conventions when our first inclinations were that we weren’t too sure about it. He persuaded people like Pat Troughton, who never wanted to talk about the programme, who found out he loved it! And John kept the programme on the air in Britain, he was the only person fighting for it. Witness the fact that now he’s been ousted, there’s nobody in the BBC who’s waving the flag.
But those same people are still campaigning to get rid of the little bit that John’s still doing, he’s working on the videos and they’ve orchestrated a sort of hate campaign based on his choice of videos now! It’s so stupid, and it’s all jealousy, simple jealousy. I think the right-minded fan… it’s like all vocal minorities, they can swamp the majority, which covers a wide range of opinions, I’m not saying that everyone agrees with everything John’s done, of course he’s made mistakes, I’ve made mistakes, you’ve made mistakes. But they’ve said ‘Doctor Who has become a pantomime’. One article said that once. I don’t see men dressed up as women, that’s pantomime, I don’t see terrible jokes, apart from mine, and that’s my choice, not John’s. John is a friend and for a while he shrugged it off but now it’s beginning to get to him. If some people want to make someone unhappy, that’s up to them, but I think the rest of us should make sure that’s not allowed to continue. I rest my case.
You say that like it's somehow not on the JNT era itself to win over its viewers. Surely the whole point of the show is to entertain and get people behind it.
If there's a fan 'bias' against the era, then that's a testament to the failures of the TV show itself in not winning those viewers over.
[deleted]
If you gave him the much trumpeted (by Colin) brilliant and fascinating "peeling of the banana" character story arc, with him making a journey from dis-likeable to likeable over the course of seven or more seasons...
You would still be left with the above, absolutely fatal and show-killing flaw.
Colin played it as if he was on stage.
Self-consciously and theatrically.
And nobody stopped him.
And that was, I think, what doomed his era, even if everything else had been brilliant. 😞
The fact that nothing else WAS brilliant was, to my mind, just the dark icing on the cake of a doomed - by Colin's performance - era. 😞
“I'm sorry but that's not fair. Red Dwarf is not the same as DW. Red Dwarf is a niche show. The highest it ever got was 8 million. Doctor Who used to average more than that for every episode including during the JNT era.
Thus good viewers for Red Dwarf season 7 probably wouldn't have been sufficient for DW. For a popular mainstream show it has to maintain a reasonably high viewership.”
“Also an 18 month hiatus would dent any shows viewership. The star of the first season of Babylon 5 is often seen as a hero of the show because he was suffering from schizophrenia and they offered to put the show on hiatus for a few months until he got better. He said that if they did that it would really struggle to find an audience again so he persevered through the difficult times.”
“Also its worth mentioning that the last story of Colin's first season Revelation of the Daleks is often regarded as one of the greatest DW stories ever made. It was even voted the 11th greatest in the 2003 40th anniversary poll.”
“Sorry but that is not true. To start with Michael Grade said he hated the show as far back as the Baker era. There was an interview with him at that time where he said that if he were in charge of the BBC he would cancel it outright.”
“The people who ran the BBC hated Sci Fi in general, hence why all Sci Fi on that channel vanished for 10 years. The makers of Red Dwarf were even advised by Paul Jackson to play it up as a comedy rather than Sci Fi as the heads of the BBC HATED Sci Fi.
Thus it was obvious that in contrast to the 60's and the 70's the heads of the Beeb wanted to finish it.”
“At the end of the Hartnell and the Troughton era viewers dropped to 3 million for some episodes. For the 60's when there are only two channels and the shows in a good timeslot and being promoted. That's utterly pathetic!”
“Similarly in the early 80's during Tom Bakers last season the shows viewers dropped to 4 million.”Well I’ve always said Logopolis would’ve been the logical point to end it, and the ratings figures, coupled with Tom Baker handing in his notice are partly why it probably wouldn’t have seemed so controversial.
“No way can anybody say that in the mid 80's in Colin's first season where the viewers where over 7 million on average and there were more channels and it was the most popular British show abroad did it deserve cancellation compared to 3 million when there were only two channels.”
“It was a completely unprofessional decision.”
“Also your other point about before they thought the show was irreplaceable doesn't apply as ultimately if the Beeb REALLY cared about the show in the mid 80's (when again its viewers weren't even a problem) they could have replaced the entire production team and put more money into it and so on.”
“Sorry but the Restoration Team are biased and one sided. You never get to see Colin defend JNT for instance on their docu's. Its only ever negative things he's allowed to say about the costume for instance.”
“Take a look at this quote from Colin and tell me if you have EVER seen anything like it on the Docus.
Well I have extremely strong opinions about that, I feel very very sympathetic towards John because what he’s done for the programme is ten times what anyone else has done for it. There’s a tiny, tiny coterie of fans who are very frustrated because they’ve never been producer of the programme, they’re mainly in Britain, but there are two or three that I could name but won’t, in the UK, who have made it their lifetime job to do everything they can to sabotage John Nathan-Turner, and I think it’s miserable, petty, ghastly behaviour and I think they’re worms that ought to be trodden into the ground. (laughs) Don’t mess around, Colin, tell them what you really think.
But John was the producer for a very long time, and he’s responsible for it being over in the US and he came over and marketed it, he always cared about the fans, he always made sure people like myself and Nicola came to conventions when our first inclinations were that we weren’t too sure about it. He persuaded people like Pat Troughton, who never wanted to talk about the programme, who found out he loved it! And John kept the programme on the air in Britain, he was the only person fighting for it. Witness the fact that now he’s been ousted, there’s nobody in the BBC who’s waving the flag.
But those same people are still campaigning to get rid of the little bit that John’s still doing, he’s working on the videos and they’ve orchestrated a sort of hate campaign based on his choice of videos now! It’s so stupid, and it’s all jealousy, simple jealousy. I think the right-minded fan… it’s like all vocal minorities, they can swamp the majority, which covers a wide range of opinions, I’m not saying that everyone agrees with everything John’s done, of course he’s made mistakes, I’ve made mistakes, you’ve made mistakes. But they’ve said ‘Doctor Who has become a pantomime’. One article said that once. I don’t see men dressed up as women, that’s pantomime, I don’t see terrible jokes, apart from mine, and that’s my choice, not John’s. John is a friend and for a while he shrugged it off but now it’s beginning to get to him. If some people want to make someone unhappy, that’s up to them, but I think the rest of us should make sure that’s not allowed to continue. I rest my case.”
“Also there should be a docu about him. He produced the show for 9 years. Philip Madoc who was in 4 stories gets one but no JNT? Its absurd. Eric Saward is controversial and he gets one. JNT is poorly served by the RT.”
“Also an 18 month hiatus would dent any shows viewership.
What the show really needed at that point was a break and a chance to step off the treadmill. The James Bond films benefitted initially from the long break between LICENSE TO KILL and GOLDENEYE. The tragedy of Dr Who was that Grade obviously wanted to run down the show and kept JNT and Seward on when logic dictated a new broom. A long break would benefit other production teams in giving them more time to hone the scripts to a higher level - unfortunately scripts were JNT's achilles heel.
Personally I'd have liked to see a lot more of Dalton's Bond than only the two films he got. So I think that hiatus was a shame in that regard.
Paul McGann IS the War Doctor in my fic
http://dalekwars.blogspot.co.uk/
TV series end! Get over it! It's only because the show was made by the publicly-funded BBC that the original show survived so long. The only reason! There were plenty of times when any other TV channel would have taken the excuse of low ratings to end the show.
shareThat was the general point I was already making, sans the dummy-spitting.
Paul McGann IS the War Doctor in my fic
http://dalekwars.blogspot.co.uk/
Personally I'd have liked to see a lot more of Dalton's Bond than only the two films he got. So I think that hiatus was a shame in that regard.
I don't see any conspiracy there. It's right there in the open that the final scene in which the Doctor fails is deliberately an iconic, defining moment. The Doctor is now being defined by his failure by the makers.I'm not sure how this story so deeply affected you to the point where you consider it the worst piece of TV ever produced but I never saw at all the Doctor's character being destroyed. He wanted to help the Silurians and Sea Devils because he felt he owed them one but it didn't work because they all destroyed each other in the end. That's it! The Doctor didn't commit any crime or his character wasn't compromised. The point of this story like so many Davison ones is he's not invincible and the outcome won't always be rosy.
Also there should be a docu about him. He produced the show for 9 years. Philip Madoc who was in 4 stories gets one but no JNT? Its absurd. Eric Saward is controversial and he gets one. JNT is poorly served by the RT.You're not the first person I've read who's said this. I totally agree by the way.
Again it took 5 years of sabotage until the JNT era got as low viewing figures as Patrick Troughton did in his last year, and even then that was in a poor timeslot and with no advertising!Ratings for the last season were terrible but yeah it wasn't due to poor quality, it was the BBC not making an effort.
Even when Colin toned his acting down a bit in the odd scene here or there, all I could ever see was an actor whose acting practically screamed "I AM ACTING!!!! LOOK AT HOW WELL I AM DELIVERING THIS LINE!!" for every single line he ever delivered during every episode that he was in.They needed a larger than life actor and got Colin Baker. You can't expect him to not go OTT. Anyway Tom Baker went OTT all the time.
In 1972, The Three Doctors did a lot to win back a huge chunk of the audience in droves. In 1983, The Five Doctors didn’t even do as well, ratings-wise as Time-Flight.Except Time-Flight and The Five Doctors were in different time slots and I believe on different days.
The show existed as long as it did because it was cheap to make. Spending more money on it would’ve defeated the point of continuing it at all.The show did at one point have a budget increase. It's not like the BBC never did give it more money and yes it would have improved those stories you mentioned in terms of production.
I don’t buy that. The team have included archive footage of JNT himself giving the reasons for his decisions, and the predicaments he was under with both the BBC and Saward.I think his point was that we never got a life history of the guy like Barry Letts or others involved.
Where did Saward get a documentary about him?He doesn't need one. He's not a producer, director or actor on the series. If they made one though yeah sure I would watch. share
I'm not sure how this story so deeply affected you to the point where you consider it the worst piece of TV ever produced
but I never saw at all the Doctor's character being destroyed.
He wanted to help the Silurians and Sea Devils because he felt he owed them one but it didn't work because they all destroyed each other in the end.
That's it! The Doctor didn't commit any crime or his character wasn't compromised.
The point of this story like so many Davison ones is he's not invincible and the outcome won't always be rosy.
Except Time-Flight and The Five Doctors were in different time slots and I believe on different days.
The show did at one point have a budget increase. It's not like the BBC never did give it more money
and yes it would have improved those stories you mentioned in terms of production.
I think his point was that we never got a life history of the guy like Barry Letts or others involved.
He doesn't need one. He's not a producer, director or actor on the series. If they made one though yeah sure I would watch.
In Trial of a Timelord he had a bad perm and was obese.
shareColin Baker: wrong time, wrong place?