Not that I expected any...


I saw this at a drive-in with my parents in the spring of '64 I guess. Did drive-in theaters have Cinerama set-ups? Seeing it now, it comes off pretty cheesy, sort of a warm-up for THE UNSINKABLE MOLLY BROWN. And par for the course, blacks and Asians get short-shrifted. I'm pretty sure I saw one black guy, a bartender in the St. Louis club and that's it. The narration for the Civil War segment is so mealy-mouthed, you can't be sure that slavery or states' rights had anything to do with the conflict. And this picture was filmed in '61 and '62. You mean to tell me they couldn't have come up with cameos for Sidney Poitier, Ruby Dee, Ossie Davis or James Edwards?
And the long segment on building the railroads completely ignores all those Chinese laborers who did the scut work. Victor Sen Young and Keye Luke coulda used the work!
"We're fighting for this woman's honor, which is more than she ever did."

reply

Not a documentary, it's a standard studio effort --like "Longest Day, Greatest Story, Mad, Battle of the Bulge, The Alamo" -- before movies were about to change in the 70's. It wasn't about slavery or Chinese workers.

I liked the movie. I got what I expected from the several good performances.

reply

You realize this movie was made in 1962, right?

Do you know what the US was like then?

reply

By addressing the slavery aspect of the war and putting Sidney Poitier in it, you now can't show the movie in many Southern locations. Lost money. I noticed no Chinese laborers, but did any of the laborers look particularly Irish? I don't remember seeing a redhead, which is usually Hollywood's way of showing Irish ancestry. Can't we get any love for the white-skinned minorities of the 1800's?

reply

Well, there is that Irish family that the Prescotts meet at the beginning as they're leaving from the East Coast. More than any other minority got in the movie.



Yippee: "For king!"
Yappee: "For country!"
Yahooie: "And, most of all, for 10¢ an hour!"

reply


Yes, I realize this film was made in 1962, not 1942, meaning the barriers were falling as far as Hollywood and race. By 1962, we had already seen SERGEANT RUTLEDGE, which finally acknowledged the presence of black cavalrymen. So why couldn't there have been even one black character in HTWWW? And Poitier, if no one else, had become a regular screen presence by '62, or have we forgotten PARIS BLUES, BAND OF ANGELS, A RAISIN IN THE SUN, ALL THE YOUNG MEN, THE DEFIANT ONES, PORGY AND BESS, SOMETHING OF VALUE, et al?
"May I bone your kipper, Mademoiselle?"

reply

You obviously don't know what the 60's were like at all, especially the early 60's which were a continuation of the 50's. Yes movies starring blacks were barely getting going but few financiers would take a chance on a big budget film thinking that the average white person wouldn't go and see it. The movies you posted were rare exceptions and not the rule..

I knew very few people of my parent's generation who would watch any of Sidney Poitier's movies at all. They were very prejudiced coming from NY when blacks moved into east Brooklyn and destroyed the neighborhoods and their home values so they had their reasons, right or wrong, it went both ways back then.

All your complaining will not change the reality of the past, so you have to expect it to be that way in movies from that time and commend the fact that we have come a long way since. No point crying over spilled milk at this point, just learn from it.




"Sometimes you have to know when to put a cork in it."
~Frasier

reply


Whoa! If you're talking to me, I was born in 1956 so I damn sure have an "inkling" of what the 1960's were about. My grandmother and other relatives lived in Bedford-Stuyvesant(from the late 1930's), Park Slope and Crown Heights. I don't remember them "destroying" anything, you dig? If YOUR relatives chose not to see any Poitier flicks, too bad. They missed some decent movies, like THE SLENDER THREAD, PRESSURE POINT, IN THE HEAT OF THE NIGHT, DUEL AT DIABLO (oh wow, a "Negro" cowboy), FOR LOVE OF IVY, A PATCH OF BLUE, THE BEDFORD INCIDENT, TO SIR WITH LOVE, ALL THE YOUNG MEN, RAISIN IN THE SUN, et al.
"May I bone your kipper, Mademoiselle?"If

reply

The movement into the boroughs was in the lat 60's but mostly the 70's so we moved out in 1962. There wasn't enough housing to fit everyone and it became a slum. Nobody said anything about the 30's and my family lived in Brooklyn since the 1850's after leaving Manhattan because of the riots in Five Points Irish town.

IMDb; where 14 year olds can act like jaded 40 year old critics...another poster

reply

[deleted]

is that Irish family"
------------------------

Minor correction: not Irish. The Harvey's were from an undetermined UK country most likely Scotland but poss' Wales or perhaps even N.I. (though I doubt it).

Kisskiss, Bangbang

reply

bradford-1:

HA!!!

TCM showed How The West Was Won this morning, followed by Titanic. I was reading posts about the first and read your signature line almost exactly as Clifton Webb was saying it. Score!

reply

You obviously don't know what the 60's were like at all, especially the early 60's which were a continuation of the 50's. Yes movies starring blacks were barely getting going but few financiers would take a chance on a big budget film thinking that the average white person wouldn't go and see it. The movies you posted were rare exceptions and not the rule..

I knew very few people of my parent's generation who would watch any of Sidney Poitier's movies at all. They were very prejudiced coming from NY when blacks moved into east Brooklyn and destroyed the neighborhoods and their home values so they had their reasons, right or wrong, it went both ways back then.

All your complaining will not change the reality of the past, so you have to expect it to be that way in movies from that time and commend the fact that we have come a long way since. No point crying over spilled milk at this point, just learn from it.


I doubt that Sidney Poitier's presence in a small role would have alienated mass audiences. By the same token, he was not yet a big star and some tokenistic racial casting would not have added much. I mean, there was not going to be a "Buffalo Soldiers" segment or something along those lines.

reply

Close - they were Scottish.

reply

Sorry. that was a Scotsman.

reply

Put aside all that.

Considering it was 1962 I thought the Indians came out of it OK. The writers didn't try to disguise the fact that it was the railway companies' actions in trying to stitch them up and a prevaricating army that led them into conflict with the westerners.


"Well I'll be... Why didn't he come shoppin' at the right store?"


reply

Considering it was 1962 I thought the Indians came out of it OK. The writers didn't try to disguise the fact that it was the railway companies' actions in trying to stitch them up and a prevaricating army that led them into conflict with the westerners.


Yes, there was surprisingly respectful balance and a little irony to the film's coverage of that subject.

reply

I thought I saw 2 chinese labourers at that worthless gold mine, but that's it on the Far Eastern front. They were probably white guys too.

reply

It's a reference to how Chinese miners would go to work on supposedly worthless mines, and through their persistence, find gold after the white guys gave up.

reply

So many of these self-righteous threads. This movie was about European settlers, for a white audience. In the early 60's, minorities were still invisible. Please don't apply modern thoughts and mores to this old movie.
I believe I once read that they used Native people. If so, they were WAY ahead of the curve!

reply

One more time. The picture was made in 1962, NOT 1952 or 1942! If it had been filmed in those earlier decades, I would never have written my o.p. because I would know better than to expect any real depiction of "how the West was won." Because the old barriers were starting to fall, the lack of acknowledgment of black/Chinese participation kinda puzzled me. When I was originally saw the film, I was 7, so it didn't occur to me what was missing. Maybe it occurred to my parents.
Christ, even the first season of BONANZA (1959-60) has a bunch of Chinese characters (not building a railroad, but doing laundry and cooking). Even John Wayne, the ultimate right-winger, acknowledged the presence of a coupla blacks at the "real" Alamo and included those characters in his 1960 movie. Also, in 1962, Sammy Davis Jr. appeared in two episodes of THE RIFLEMAN and in SERGEANTS 3, the Rat Pack Western. So, what am I being "self-righteous" about, johndoe888?

"May I bone your kipper, Mademoiselle?"

reply

"... I was 7, so it didn't occur to me what was missing."

And, I'll bet you enjoyed the film more for not watching it through those 21st century, race-tinted, self-conscious, and ever so fashionable glasses worn by so many pseudo-sophisticated movie-goers today.

This film is an entertainment (the producers' idea of a story), not an academic treatise listing all those politically in-tune people and events we all "must" remember about 'how the west was won'. There are, I'm quite confident, hundreds, if not thousands, of people and events not depicted in the picture besides the pristinely "essential" one you've latched onto in your post (the Chinese are not remembered). The film-makers couldn't, after all, depict everything! . . . My God, the film's already over 3 hours long.

(Btw, right-wing, left-wing, anything-wing has nothing to do with it.)

I don't think you are "self-righteous" but, rather, self-conscious, from a 21st century point-of-view, raising, as you have, such a predictably "in-tune" observation about what you consider the film's failings.

reply

I stayed away for more than a year. I even rewatched the movie last month. What I said originally? I still stand by it. I got a laugh out of some early narration about mountain men, with a mention of Jim Beckwourth, who was -- surprise -- an ex-slave! Call for Harry Belafonte...

May I bone your kipper, Mademoiselle?

reply

Even John Wayne, the ultimate right-winger, acknowledged the presence of a coupla blacks at the "real" Alamo...

Let's get something straight. 

It was always "left wingers" aka Democrats who ran the plantations, racist Sheriff departments, and imposed Jim Crowe laws on black citizens -- not Conservatives or "right wingers" as you imply. It was a liberal Democrat Governor, not "right wingers", who stood in the school house door blocking black kids from entering.

Truth is, deeply racist Southern "Dixiecrats" in Congress realized they couldn't fight the Civil Rights Act any longer {and fight it they did} so they "adopted" black causes under a phony claim of "compassion" in order to keep their party viable. After signing the legislation, a snickering President Lyndon Johnson-D was overheard telling his aids "we'll have the n****ers voting Democrat for the next 200 years".

Academia, Hollywood, and the media have reinforced the big lie about race for so long now that many Americans simply repeat it without doing any independent research first. The ignorant quote at the top of my post illustrates my point perfectly.


And the dead shall be raised incorruptible,and we shall be changed.~1 Corinthians 15:52

reply

Democrats have not always been liberal and Republicans have not always been conservative. In the 1860s, the Republicans were, if anything, the liberal party and the Democrats were conservative. Even in the 1960s, there were liberal Republicans and conservative Democrats.

reply

I was born in outer London, UK in 1948 and when I was growing up it was an event to see a non white person - despite many already having settled in the UK, particularly in areas where there was either industrial demands or cheap housing - we had race riots in 1958 in Notting Hill London, yet the media , more or less ignored the underlying issues, once the initial disturbances were past.

When I saw "How the West Was Won" at the cinema in 62 or 63 it was a big family event - I think marking my younger brother's birthday - this was special because of the Cinerama wide-screen production. As a young teenager (from a 21st century stand point) - I am ashamed I did not give the fact that there were no significant numbers of non-whites in the film - native Americans apart any attention - but that is simply how it was - we were brought up to be bigots & it was not until the late seventies, by which time I had worked in central London, with West Indians and then in Liverpool - with very mixed race areas that I began to give the issue any serious thought.

Now back to the film - it was for a world-wide audience - though obviously it needed to be a financial success firstly in the USA - TV was in the ascendancy - Movies were trying to cling on - hence the special effects - big stars - big story - 3 films in one - yet not complicated or sophisticated - made for a mass audience who had been familiar with 'the old west' from 'Wagon Train', 'Rawhide' etc., etc. and the whole gamut of semi serious western TV series that were more subtle than the earlier shoot 'em up "Lone Ranger" type fare - where my mother made jokes about sweeping out the bodies from the back of the TV at the end!

Sadly as it has been said we were ONLY at the beginning of an awakening - but it had not spread very far or wide or deep & so films like this were made without giving a real thought to race issues, I suggest.

Mention has been made of Sidney Poitier, who was certainly one of several actors who could have played a relevant part - if the film makers wanted to broaden our knowledge about the Civil War, rather than just reference it and use it as a backdrop for some on screen violence and special effects that hold an audience's attention - similarly with the train fight at the end and the stampede - all standard fare for western movies - but just done on a bigger scale. It was still five years before Sidney Poitier would play a black London school teacher in 'To Sir with Love' - but by 1967/8 things were changing and some entertainments were seriously examining race issues - hardly surprising in view of there being increasing tension playing out on the streets in several countries around the world - including France, UK and the USA.

The opening poster is right to mention the issue - BUT in 1961/62 realistic representation of the different races was just not an issue for most in the entertainment industry and sadly neither for most of us - whites - in the cinema seats - I guess the black people and other races - would mostly have expected it to be thus - hence we are still struggling - at least in parts of Britain today with some very nasty attitudes from some towards those of different races to themselves - despite us all probably having originally descended from Africans!

reply

"... but that was simply how it was -- we were brought up to be bigots and it was not until the late seventies ..."

Whoa there, big fella! Where I come from - the USA - not all (or many) of us were brought up to be bigots. Race consciousness had begun being seriously introduced into our collective consciousness during the 1950's.

Frankly, when I was in high school (early 1960's) -- a white middle-class school almost entirely -- only a very few nasty individuals made derogatory race-based comments (not just race-based, btw) and, then, only on rare occasions. The rest of us generally walked away. No parent I know of welcomed these comments and most cautioned the rest of us against following suit. Teachers disciplined students who hurled such epithets at or around other students.

Today, that consciousness and natural turn toward fairness, respect, and accomodation within the culture has become rather more an obsession. And, the government has, in its own inimitable and inevitable way, assumed an inflated and often times questionable role as behavior arbitor and enforcer of any conceivably related issue . . . a kind of finger waggling with symbols, bumper-sticker slogans, and partisanship: Thus, slowing down any more permanent solution to the question of genuine racial harmony which could have been hoped for without the "help" of those folks with motivations less than altruistic or moral.

reply