THE ENDING - MAJOR SPOILERS - The Roman Spring of Mrs. Stone (1961) Discussion

[–] nubka 18 years ago

I'm with Jill St. John on this one. I've always felt that she threw him the key because she didn't want to be alone. She probably had misgivings and knew in the back of her mind that this new "affair" would bring her nothing but trouble and drag her even further down, but by that point, I don't think she really cared (her former life, as she knew it, was over, she felt that she was truly over the hill, and then Paulo dumps her for a younger woman...)

In her mind, it was better to have at least a bum around to make her feel that she was still desireable to someone (I would also be willing to bet that she would clean him up proper and buy him some presentable clothes!)

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[–] DavidParis 18 years ago

Absolutely. It never entered my mind that after she let the derelict in he was going to kill her. Her intense feeling of loneliness drove her to sacrifice any last vestige of morality and common sense that remained after Beatty left her. Her lonelieness and desperation overcame the fear she had of becoming one of those "older women" she depised.

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[–] 18 years ago

[deleted]

[–] ld-21 18 years ago

I certainly respect the [relative] optimism of the "next lover" theory, but I feel it's certainly Williams' (and the filmmakers) intention that The Young Man is, basically, the Angel of Death. His presence is too ominous, too constant to be otherwise.

Note that in the film, he puts Karen's keys in his pocket, rather than on the hall table. This is a very powerful final gesture. Then he approaches the camera (the P.O.V. at this point is roughly Karen's remember) and the scene fades to black. The intention here is pretty clear. Through the whole film, there has been no squeamish avoidance of sexual innuendo. It's doubtful the director would use this technique to avoid showing a sexual embrace.

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[–] babs1068 18 years ago

I just re-watched this on a VHS tape and I have to be with the last writer here. For one thing, it's very typical Williams, and they have the "Floras por las muertas" kind of thing that happens in Streetcar with the women in the alley. And Suddenly too.

Also, earlier on during their relationship, Karen and Paolo are talking about how dangerous this is all. And he says something to the effect that most of the women her age are found killed with no sign of forced entry, as they've been killed by their lovers. She replies that she's not at that stage yet, and maybe in ten years she will be. After Paolo leaves her for St. John, it seems that she's in major depression mood and figures she has nothing left.

It is open for interpretation, but the filmmakers hedge it pretty much on the suicidal angle.

I watched it about ten years ago; I taped it off of A.and E. I remember thinking it very strange at the time and it's as odd as I remember. Sort of B-list Williams. And I think Viv should be able to do better and Warren's histrionics and over-acting drives me crazy. And that accent. Oy.

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[–] Mr-Dedlock 18 years ago

She was murdered, the guy was crazed out of his mind and Mrs Stone threw him the keys and she sat waiting and smoking the cigarette as if it were he last one so I would definitely believe he murdered her.
Vivien Leigh films never had happy endings anyways, she always ended up dead or alone.

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[–] classics_guy 18 years ago

I saw this movie many years ago in my teens, during the 80's
even then, I thought it pretty clear she instended (or hoped) that the guy kill her, she was in despair and alone again and knowing she was past her 'prime' as an actress and woman. she had a look of resignation on her face
smoking that cigarette, waiting. and that guy was definately NOT out for sex
or a lover! he looked scary and despereate.
knowing she was alone, with no doubt expensive jewlery and such.

at the young age of 15 when I saw this, I sensed 'doom' as he walked into her apt. Williams wouldn't have it any other way would he?

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[–] olebuttermilksky5-1 18 years ago

i thought the guy was more symbolic than just her death or merely the next lover. i thought he was supposed to be a hint to her subconscious that she would ultimately be stripped of all her morals. it's as if when he is first brought to the audiences attention, she has no reason to be worried about him and his odd presence because he is not yet a threat. but as the film continues and Mrs. Stone's "morals" and motives become more shady, like her dealings with Paolo and his lady pimp, its like the presence of the young man starts to have more importance, and immorality is now a great threat to mrs. stone.

her dealings with paolo are such that she need not worry about morals. she blindly believes that he wants her for herself, for she challenges Paolo, and therefore believes that he loves her. to her conscious mind she is not yet immoral, but in love with a younger man. that is why the stalker now worries her--because subconsciously she knew all along what paolo was. and when she loses paolo and realizes that he had not loved he, its as if she gives up all hope and lets the boy--whom she has been avoiding and running away from (both in her mind and physically)--come up to her room.
i believe they become lovers, but more importantly she gives in to what he stands for.

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[–] artistathome 12 years ago

If he was a stalker who wanted to kill her he wouldn't have waited that long. Months? He'd have cornered her someplace, which he did at one point, and kill her then.

He wanted to be invited into her life so that she would pay him, clothe him and introduce him to a better life for awhile. To think that he hung around to committ murder is ludicrous.

However, from HER point of view, yes, she wanted something bad to happen. Paolo had told her she might end up with her throat slashed and that is what she hoped too.

But it wouldn't have happened that night unless she insisted on it. But how in the world would the beggar then get what he wanted? Steal her jewels?>

I think the ending was absurd even for TW. I didn't enjoy the movie frankly. and what was up with her pot belly>>>????

"I'm rich and I'm Scottish. Doesn't get better than that!"
Craig Ferguson in "I'll Be There"

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[–] HarlowMGM 12 years ago

Notice though after Karen has thrown him the keys. He picks them up but looks around to make sure no one will see him entering the building just like a criminal would! Why would do that that if he did not have a sinister motive? He would have picked them up instantly and hustled right up if he thought here was his chance to be a gigolo. And his smile - if he thought this was his ticket to the gravy train he would have been smirking and strutted in like Paolo. But he walks in tensely and his smile is very sinister and evil. And note his hands are pretty much kept in his pockets suggesting he may be preparing to draw a weapon.

He waited that long because despite his trailing her he never had a chance to be alone with her before where no one would see him if he were to attack her. There's also the possibility he intends to rape her first so he's not going to attack her where he can't do that as well. (And while some posters have suggested this guy was "the Angel of Death", he's obviously a real person given Paolo has seen him and commented on him aways being on the street.)

Mind you I would love for the ending to be Karen just picked up another gigolo but given the bleak endings to most Tennessee Williams works I think he clearly meant this was the end of the line for Karen Stone. I think he deliberately left the ending vague because I'm sure a frank ending would have been even more disturbing in that era.

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[–] TANSD76 12 years ago

I think he waited that long because he was more of a symbol than a real person. Especially with plays, I find myself having to suspend my disbelief at recurring themes and symbols and phrases. To me, he's like any play where people keep mentioning a certain flower or where characters echo phrases though they've never heard other characters say them. He's meant to hang around and be ominous until it's time for him to play his role.

I actually hoped that he would have a greater purpose and that there would be some secret to his character. I hoped he had something to tell her or that he would be revealed as someone from her past. But no, I think he was just a symbol and it's highly doubtful that he would be her next lover.

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[–] shandy8 13 years ago

I agree. He was the angel of death, and she invited him in.

"What do you want me to do, draw a picture? Spell it out!"

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[–] HoferPM-1 13 years ago

Just watched it again for the upteenth time. I felt bad for her, but she should not have invited that guy up. The minute I saw him I became afraid and Paolo said something about a woman being murdered after she took up with some street urchin. Paolo was a male whore and she should have realized it would never last.

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[–] info-3508 15 years ago

I think that your analysis is very astute. Watching it again, I believe that the act of the vagabond putting Mrs. Stone's keys in his own pocket is significant. We are meant to see this, it implies to me that his intentions are not good. A "friendly presence" would have smiled, returned the keys to her, or at least placed them on the table. He is desperate, there for taking. She is vain, so in despair over her youth and beauty fading, so willing to sacrifice her morals for the illusion of desirability, she doesn't care anymore.

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[–] maryannhwrd 13 years ago

I noticed that he pocketed her keys, but didn't realize the action's significance. You're so right. Until now I thought the movie's ending was a lot more hopeful than the book's.

In the novella, Tennessee Williams shows this young man as much more sinister. He can be heard tapping something metallic sounding as he stalks Mrs. Stone. Also, he waits until he's sure she's watching before relieving himself against the stone wall.

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[–] mark.waltz 12 years ago

Tennessee Williams used "the angel of death" character in his play "The Milk Train Doesn't Stop Here Anymore" which premiered in New York just a year or two after this. This does create a pattern, although you can also see sort of a reverse "Pygmallion"/"My Fair Lady" story where she helps him turn his life around. I don't recall if this scene was in the original, but having just seen the remake, I felt that the part where the young man grabs the pizza dropped by an American woman and devours it to indicate that he was mortal. Even if the man is unbalanced, I don't think he'd stoop to killing her when at least he'd have a roof over his head for a while. If he did eventually kill her, it would have to be in a moment of passion, not right after he entered the apartment for the first time.

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[–] TANSD76 12 years ago

I agree. He seems like the kind of character you'd find in a play, more symbol than person. And the foreshadowing of the earlier discussion of the woman killed by a stranger seems to make it pretty clear that even if he didn't kill Karen, she certainly wanted him to.

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[–] cpmorr 17 years ago

The line about women her age winding up murdered by their erstwhile lovers was definitely a foreshadowing, otherwise what purpose did it serve in the dialogue?

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[–] tgemberl 16 years ago

ID-21 wrote:
Through the whole film, there has been no squeamish avoidance of sexual innuendo.

But it seems like that's kind of beside the point. This is not a "sexploitation" flick, so it only shows two people coming together when there is some level of emotional intimacy between them. The young man from the street is a complete stranger, so Williams wouldn't show intimacy between them. Of course he is a harbinger of doom for Mrs. Stone, as everybody on this thread has said, but we can't necessarily draw the conclusion that he killed her on this occasion. It just shows how desperate she is at this point, and of course this doesn't bode well for her future. She may be found dead someday, but not necessarily now.

"Extremism in the pursuit of moderation is no vice."

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[–] huweyjenkins 16 years ago

Hmmm interesting interpretation. I must admit I didn't think that he killed her - she just didn't want to be left alone on the night her lover was off with someone else but the more I think about it.....A lovely film, Vivien Leigh is rather understated and it's an effective interpretation.

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[–] socorso 16 years ago

The music reaches such a dark crescendo over the final scene. It's a dead giveaway.

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[–] mark_g_1 15 years ago

dead giveaway...excuse the pun....of course people are to make up their own minds...other wise why leave it as a cliffhanger...i thought in a previous post it was good of them to point out he put the keys in his pocket...a part of me wants him to just be in love with her and all through the film he wanted to get close to her but my better judgement considering what others have said about the whole feel of the last couple of minutes...its so dark...he must have killed her but i feel like he had other intentions....like when leigh ran from one of her friends trying to tell her the truth about paolo, he was trying to say something to her...i dont think a killer would want to speak to her...maybe to befriend her to get into her apartment to kill her but i just dont think that

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[–] gregorynipper 15 years ago

If he wanted to kill her, why would he constantly hang around in front of her apartment where he's sure to be seen? One might argue in response that he's crazy and couldn't think about avoiding getting caught, but then why didn't he kill her earlier, such as in the alley, if that's really what he was after?

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[–] toshguy 15 years ago

It's one of those "it's just going to start all over again and it'll get worse" endings.

I'm here, Mr. Man, I can not tell no lie and I'll be right here 'till the day I die

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[–] CheeryToes 15 years ago

I don't know why he would hang out all the time and have opportunity to hurt her several times in the film and then go "woo hoo, I got what I wanted, NOW I'll kill her." But yet, that's where the film leads you. Listening to all the dialogue going on in her head and the comment about throat slitting - she was commiting suicide by drifter...the drifting did end up killing her.

That being said, when they left it that the kid was going to kill her I thought that's the dopiest thing I ever saw - I stayed up till 4AM for that!! Love TW - but ...eh...this film was not for me. Though Beatty was beautiful and so was Vivien Leigh. (and the street guy)

"I jumped off a roof for you"

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[–] badnomad 15 years ago

Knowing Tennessee Williams work, the stranger is a benevolent Angel of Death. He saw in her from the very beginning that she would want to die, and he waited and waited until he had her consent to do her in. That's why he comes to her like a lover and with a smile. It's a benevolent act (mercy killing) in a warped "Tennesee Williams" way.

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[–] socorso 14 years ago

great take on it, badnomad.

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[–] SuzieWrong 14 years ago

Eh, Jill St. John is wrong. Well, maybe not 100% wrong. This is a death scene.

Watch the final scene when Karen is alone. She breaks down and cries knowing that she has lost Paolo. She rings Meg, but discovers Meg has just left for New York. Meg was her last bridge to society and life, and now that bridge has been burned. The audience hears the 'voices' in Karen's head about all she has lost in her life. The final straw is when Karen sees Paolo arrive at Miss Bingham's hotel (Karen refuses to call her Barbara. Heh). Back at her apartment the last words we hear is Karen's 'voice' when she told Paolo, "all I need is four years. After that a cut throat would be convenient." Then she wraps the key and tosses it to Mystery Guy. She sits in a chair, lights a cigarette, and waits passively. We see Mystery Guy walk towards the camera (Karen's POV) and his form obliterates everything from view until the screen is completely black.

This is Karen's act of passive suicide. It is a descent into utter degradation and deprivation by submitting to this dark angel of death. Perhaps Mystery Guy does not kill her that night, but we know that there are only days or hours left in Karen Stone's life.

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[–] socorso 13 years ago

great take, SuzieWrong.

It was just on TCM and I had to watch the end again. It's one of THE saddest (and most depressing) scenes ever committed to film, IMHO.

Cold sober, I find myself absolutely fascinating.

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[–] CheeryToes 14 years ago

badnomad, I hadn't looked at it like that...but then he's more of a metaphor than a real person, and perhaps she took her own life?

Perhaps if I hadn't stayed up till 4 am to watch it, I wouldn't have been so indignant!

"I jumped off a roof for you"

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[–] lordofthelake 14 years ago

I thought that maybe the stalker represents old age and impending death. Mrs. Stone has been trying to hold on to her youth and vitality, but at the end, she has given up.

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[–] celbopgirl 14 years ago

In the first scenes of the Roman Steps, it was pointed out that its where the men hang about, looking for lonely ladies. One was shown, handing his card to an elderly woman.
The lady pimp had threatened Paolo, in her apartment. "Do you want to be on the streets with one shirt and no socks?" He became compliant.
I felt that the young man, following Mrs. Stone, was a victim of the lady pimp and her threats. There has to be a connection, because there needs to be a common thread. He might have not played by lady pimp's rules and was cut off from her favors and connections. He might have also been degraded, by what was insinuated with the Baron who was waiting in lady pimp's hallway for a date. His watching, and waiting, was his way of finding a way to survive. Mrs. Stone was fresh meat and she had something for street boy, too.
I felt that Paolo, mentioning the dead lady in France, was a way to try to scare Mrs. Stone away, let her cut things off, so he could get past the boredom and onto something new.

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[–] brefane 14 years ago

Mrs. Stone says to Paolo, "After three more years of this, a slit throat would be a convenience" I always felt that the man at the end was her killer.

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[–] info-3508 14 years ago

I agree. Watching the last five minutes again, each voice over is significant. It seems to me the voice over repeating this phrase at this point in the film makes it clear-- buh-bye Mrs. Stone. In her vanity, she'd rather die than watch her own youth, beauty and fame fade. In her loneliness, she cannot bear to live.

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[–] richardgroen60 14 years ago

it is open for interpretation, however, in the end scene we are remembered by the scene where Paolo tells her about the danger, that you could ben killed by letting anyone into your life and house in this matter. So the director is pulling into the direction i would say.

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[–] ELashes 14 years ago

It seemed obvious to me that he killed her, but I didn't like the ending so I'm glad to know other people interpreted it differently. In fact, I'd forgotten all about this movie until I watched Identikit with Liz Taylor and found people comparing the two. Maybe I will watch it again.

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[–] Echo_in_big_sky 13 years ago

The last time I viewed this film I strongly felt that her stalker killed her. It so strongly made that impression on me to the point that when I viewed it just now I was shocked that he hadn't killed her. So much for memories and impressions.

Either way, it was a pretty depressing ending. Even if he were just a stalker who was hoping for his opportunity, she is just being passed down to avoid her loneliness.

I would have just gone shopping or did something creative. It's sad that such a beautiful woman of only 50 would see herself as not worth loving, or that she had nothing fun left in life except for pursuing tacky young men.

Always the officiant, never the bride. http://www.withthiskissitheewed.com

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[–] npaxton-3 12 years ago

Paolo, even though a gigolo, has the "niceties" that he learned from the contessa in contrast to the young man in rags waiting for his opportunity to move in. It appears that he knows it will just be a matter of time before Paolo will go and Mrs. Stone will be desperate enough to accept him. She is resigned to her fate but I believe it is more of a metaphorical death as the street boy will not have the finesse and connections of Paolo but will be more crude, more cruel, and more demeaning to Mrs. Stone. She will not be able to pretend that he loves her.
I took his putting the keys in his pocket as meaning that he will now move in to the life that he has dreamed about as she slowly withers away. So, in a sense, he can be called "the Angel of Death" who by taking the keys has moved in with Mrs. Stone. He may end up killing her (or a subsequent derelict might) but if that was his original intention he would have dropped the keys, taken what he wanted, killed her, and left.

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