MovieChat Forums > The Hustler (1961) Discussion > Minnesota Fats was the real tragic chara...

Minnesota Fats was the real tragic character


When Minnesota Fats threw in with Burt Gordon his life was virtually over. Gordon OWNED him.

There is no "off" position on the genius switch.

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I agree. Especially the end scene when Eddie stands up to Bert. You can tell by the look on Fat's face that if he had the balls earlier in life he could have been like Eddie and got out from under Bert's control but it's just too late for him.

Also at that point Fat's respects Eddie and his newfound character and sees what a pos Bert really is.

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Too bad it took the girl dying for Eddie to go all out and face it.

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Yes, but that's what builds "character" (as Burt says).

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I didn't see Fats as being under Bert's control. Fats dresses well, seems to pick his own matches, and reaches into his own pocket for stake money, in contrast to Eddie, who goes to his stakehorse for money. If both are under Bert's control, who is Bert pulling for (or against)? I thought Fats was amused that Eddie had stood up to Bert.

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I think that when Eddie came back it was already known that Gordon staked him on the road, so Gordon really couldn't take a side, having also been staking Fats. This last match was just the two of them, their own money. The showdown after the second match between Gordon and Eddie where Gordon asks for half, then desperately negotiating for less than half.. but he settled for none of it so long as Eddie never plays "big time pool" again. This does imply that he has a piece of Fats, and he was willing to trade it for a piece of Eddie. If Eddie stayed on, Fats might have become free of Gordon. That may be why Fats suggested Eddie to pay up. And so I agree with some of the posts above, Fats is a tragic figure, trapped in the hustle and with Gordon.

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You weren't supposed to realize how much Fats was in Burt's pocket until the end. We are supposed to see him from Eddie's perspective - the big cheese who he's there to slice up and replace. But there are subtle clues that Fats can't bet too deeply without Burt's approval. When he sends the preacher to get liquor, that's actually a signal to get Burt because Fats realized he was in trouble and shouldn't proceed without Burt's approval. He says something like, "get it from Tony's" meaning, swing by where Burt is playing poker and alert him to the situation. Then Fats won't continue to pay without a nod from Burt. I didn't understand what that meant until Eddie went through the same process.

At the end when Fats had been defeated, he sits there like a broken man. Or like a man who's been bought and paid for. He's so accustomed to living under Burt's rule, he can't figure out how to break away. And he looks even more pitiful when Eddie fights his way out.

Also, the thumb breaking was at Burt's instruction. Eddie finally figures that out in the end.

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I thought it was pretty obvious that Bert owned Fats. Sure Fats dresses well, he hadn't lost in 15 years and probably taking all comers.

He doesn't necessarily "pick his own matches" either. Fats has to look to Bert for the OK for example, has to look to Bert to continue his match with Eddie the first time when he was down $18,000. Bert was obviously the one in control.

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Agreed.

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Hear hear! I kept waiting for Minnesota Fats to stand up, square himself away (again) and walk out with Eddie or walk out after Eddie. His forlorn/hangdog expression and minimal dialogue in the final scene was just as poignant as Eddie's rant. Sometimes less is more.

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I don't think it was a case of Burt owning Fats as much as Fats realising this is all he's got. His matches are played out against a background of distinctly dodgy characters and dealings - he knows what will happen to Eddie if he doesn't give Burt the money. Up to now, he's been the top dog - but now he's been beaten and knows it, but this is all he has - he's got nowhere else to go. With Eddie, he sees the new top pool player walking away from the game - because 'the price is too high'. Whether Burt runs him or not (and I don't think he does), Fats has already been bought and sold - and he's no longer top dog. No wonder he's looking miserable...

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I think it's more...this is Fat's profession. His life is this scenario played out again and again. His final hat tip to Eddie is one of the great moments in cinema.

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Fats may not have been totally owned by Burt, but he certainly found it necessary to ask for his help in the first match. Now that he's number 2 he may be even more owned by him.

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Fats was absolutely in Burt's pocket. He probably doesn't serve much use anymore because all he does at this point is wait around for people stupid enough to challenge him to a high stakes game. But as the final scene showed, you dont enter into an agreement with Burt and back away without repercussions. You can see Minnesota Fats knew that when he warned Eddie, perhaps from first hand experience. Yes he makes a good living and chooses his own matches, but he's locked into a debt he can never repay.

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I think a lot of people here have missed the obvious point. Fats did not rely on Burt Gordon in normal circumstances. He was his own man and was doing very well.

When Fats lost several games in a row to Eddie, he gradually ran out of ready cash and knew he would need a financial backer. When he asked Preacher to buy some drinks, he told him to buy them from the place where Burt Gordon would be gambling. Preacher told Gordon that Fats was losing money at high speed, so Gordon deserted his poker game and came over to watch. He started backing Fats and so shared the profits Fats made from that one session. Apart from that one occasion, Fats was completely independent of Burt Gordon.

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I don't see Fats as a tragic character at all. He loved to play pool and he had earned the reputation, with Bert's help, as being the best money player in the world. He was a sharp dressed chap who appeared to be living well, at least compared to the rest of the neighborhood. For these perks he might well have been perfectly content to sign his pool playing life over to Bert. There's really nothing in this film to indicate that he was an unhappy man. Sure, he felt pity for Eddie and was clearly afraid to cross Bert, but that doesn't mean he was unhappy with his arrangement and his lot in life. Did Fats have any regrets? Maybe, but we wouldn't know it from the film.

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The most tragic character IMO was Sarah, who killed herself in the false assumption that Eddie had thrown her over or was about to (as Bert hinted at to her, but it wasn't true). And his former partner whom Eddie threw over was also sort of a tragic character, but at least he was still alive.

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There were absolutely no false assumptions! The whole point of the movie would've been lost if that was the case!

Eddie threw Sarah over- TWICE. Once, when he publicly rejected her after she tried talking sense into him during his match with Findley and again when he told her to leave. Eddie, himself, admits it when he says "I traded her in for a pool game."

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I always think of this film in the same league as the Cincinnati Kid, with Jackie Gleason and Edward G. Robinson in basically the same role of the elder champion whom the challenger (Paul Newman and Steve McQueen) has to beat in order to get to the top. The difference is that Gleason has to kowtow to a backer (George C. Scott) while Robinson is independent.

I also prefer the ending of the Cincinnati Kid. Robinson is champ because he does whatever he needs to do to win...including (in my opinion) stacking the deck and cheating. Gleason did that in their first match (he extended the playing time until Newman was too drunk and tired to keep up with him) but he didn't in their second.

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How can you 'extend the time' of an open ended pool match? Fats beat Eddie fair and square in their first encounter.

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He wasn't that much of a tragic figure, he was the best in the country at something, America is a big country, he could have found another pool club to play, he's the big draw after all, hell, he could have gone to the UK at some point and tried his hand at snooker, it would be a challenge as it is a much tougher game but if you've been dominating pool for 15 years maybe it's time for a new challenge.

The truth is though, he was probably comfortable just doing what he was doing.

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