MovieChat Forums > The Time Machine (1960) Discussion > 'Which Three Books?' - No Qualifications

'Which Three Books?' - No Qualifications


The two extant threads on this board arrogantly shut off discussion, forbidding "Bible bashing," and questions/criticism of others' (possibly lame) choices. Here, discussion and criticism are welcome.

My choices? Well, it sure as hell wouldn't be a Bible or any other religious text. Religion's track record leaves much to be desired, and if there's not any religion to be found among the Eloi and the Morlocks, then it's evidently something the designers of the "perfect world" felt it was better without.

I'm not sure I could make a choice from what we've got. The books available in our time have not solved our problems. I would like to broaden the choice. Before choosing three books, I would prefer to look in what Wells refers to as "the Golden Age," the time during which all the problems had been solved, prior to the decay of the great Quiet. Perhaps there's better books later than our time. Having a Time Machine would make that possible.

§« The Sleep of Reason Produces Monsters. »§

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The Bible is usually not stocked on a Shelf like any other book, is I find it likely the 3 missing that they noticed included a Bible.

I'd mostly bring History books, what's necessary for Civilization will mostly come naturally, what'd be important to me is to know how not to repeat the mistakes of others,

"It's not about money

It's about sending a Message

Everything Burns!"

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If you have as many bibles as I do, some of them are on a shelf.

I notice you say "what'd be important to me is to know how not to repeat the mistakes of others." So the books are for your consultation, then?

Do you think there would be a risk in teaching the Eloi to read, and allowing them to peruse the books themselves? Would you let the Eloi read the Bible?

Would you teach the Morlocks?

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No their for the Eloi, I already know those mistakes quite well.

If I ever a Bible on a Shelf it'd be a shelf of all Bibles.

Yes i would if they where willing to listen.

"It's not about money

It's about sending a Message

Everything Burns!"

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You didn't address whether or not it would be risky to allow the Eloi to process those books themselves. They're almost certain to misunderstand.

I think the Morlocks would eat you, and use the pages of your books to wipe their mouths.

§« The Sleep of Reason Produces Monsters. »§

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I would have to teach to read first for one thing, I definitely read it all to them first, and help them learn to understand them, but I intend to teach not indoctrinate.

"It's not about money

It's about sending a Message

Everything Burns!"

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[deleted]


-the Bible


-the works of Shakespeare


-Paradise Lost

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Absolutely the Bible !

Shakespeare

?

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You would introduce to the Eloi evils to which they'd never been exposed. The Bible would constitute a powerfully corrupting influence. Not to mention the pernicious lies concerning a non-existent deity.

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Ignorance of those Evil is the easiest way to make them happen again, it is important to learn from past mistake,s which Si why History books are the primary things I'd bring, I'd trust the rest to come naturally.

Have you been following my recent activity? Both in this and the 33 account?

When the chips are down... these "Civilized" people... will Eat each Other

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Have you ever read Chiniquy's The Priest, the Woman, and the Confessional?

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Afraid not, who's Chiniquy?

"SLaughter is the best medicine"

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Charles Chiniquy, the 19th century ex-Roman Catholic priest. I would think you would know of him. The argument he advanced in that book was common to Protestant polemic in those days, that the questions put to penitents in the confessional (especially youngsters, on their first confessions) were of a corrupting nature, and tended to put ideas into their heads which would otherwise not have occurred to them. In effect, young penitents were taught gross sins through the questions recommended be put to them by Church father Alphonsus Liguiori, among others.

The Bible would have the same deleterious effect on the Eloi. Through it, they would lose their innocence, and acquire a real sense of the profane.

§« The Sleep of Reason Produces Monsters. »§

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I'm talking about studying trends of History.

The Bible is not so flashy in how it presents Sin.

"SLaughter is the best medicine"

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How it presents them would not matter; the fact is that it presents them. "Sin" is not an idea that would be of benefit to the Eloi, nor would an enumeration of specific acts considered to be "sins," which it would otherwise never occur to them to do.

The Bible would most definitely be the serpent in that garden.

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So your actually arguing that keeping knowledge fomr them would be a good Idea?

"SLaughter is the best medicine"

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Certain kinds, yes. If the Eloi do not strive amongst themselves and kill each other, then they do not need to hear about it, if even from the prohibition of it.

Romans 7:7b: "Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet.""

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You assuming it won't happen just cause it hasn't yet.

Their like children, they do need to be taught right and wrong, the former priest point about the confessional is in how the knowledge is given, same with points people make about Sex ed and so on.

"SLaughter is the best medicine"

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Have you ever seen the original Star Trek episode, "The Apple"?

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No.

You are clinging to a fantasy that Evil simply won't appear on it's own, people evil impulses come fomr within.

Did you see my thread on the Gay movie board?

When the chips are down... these "Civilized" people... will Eat each Other

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You're recommending imposing external values and concepts upon the Eloi, which they were otherwise unfamiliar with.

Yes.

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I'm saying it is necessary to teach them right and wrong?

What was the Yes to? The thread I mentioned? Are you gonna respond to it?

When the chips are down... these "Civilized" people... will Eat each Other

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So your actually arguing that keeping knowledge fomr them would be a good Idea?


Equating the Bible with any kind of knowledge is quite something in itself.

I for one agree with the other poster, a Bible wouldn't do any good and would only confuse matters. The Bible is a snapshot of a specific place at a specific time/era which was dealing with its own internal and external problems, with its own challenges and limitations of which the moral philosophy called the Bible is simply a reflection. It is the crystallization of the political, social and spiritual state of one specific people at one specific time in the past, and as such is/has become (has always been?) completely irrelevant to any other culture at any other time or place in the world.

This is how 2'000 years later we are still stuck with slavery comments, calls to the murder of gay people, misogynistic observations and a cornucopia of false information (cosmological, geographical, climatical) all contained in a so-called holy book inspired by God himself, just because we can't fathom the simple fact that, like any other holy book or religion, the Bible has no power of eternal truth nor universality, despite of what its apologetics may claim.

A religion is nothing but an attempt at universalizing a locality and eternizing one unit of time. An attempt at objectifying a subjectivity, if you will. And this is why the more time will pass, the less a specific religion will make sense, be relatable and the more it will seem absurd and out of place. The more also will it become metaphorical rather than literal and the more will we have to resort to interpretation to understand its meaning.

Until a new religion more in tune with its time and place replaces the previous one and, in time, becomes obsolete as well, as they all do. Or until religion disappears, that's also an eventuality, although strangely unlikely.


People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs

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I’ve been a fan of this film – and Wells’ science-fiction classic on which it is based – most of my life.
I don’t own a DVD copy of the film, but serendipitously stumbled upon a recent airing on television.
The question of the “three books” at the end of the film piqued my interest, and I came here to look at the IMDb boards specifically for the purposes of seeing what other viewers may have posted on the topic of said question.
I was reminded of a common element in several other works of fiction that I’m familiar with, which involved a parent (or parents) isolated from "the rest of the world" with a child (or children).
This is often intentional, or the parent(s) are prepared for it in some way, and educate the child(ren) through the use of a carefully chosen library of books.
I’m sure the connection to The Time Machine – though a bit of a stretch – is obvious.
Some have stated that they find the “three books” limitation too restricting, and I’m compelled to agree.
Rather, I’ve started to ask myself, “If I were going to create a library of the only books that a particular group of people would have access to, what would they be?”
First off, whenever possible, I would have high-quality, large-print, hardcover editions.
Although I’m no monoglot, my native & primary language is English.
Therefore, most of the books that I would bring would originally have been written in the English language.
However, many of them will have originally been written in other languages.
For such books, I would bring original-language editions, as well as copies of any translations into English.
I would also bring a variety of linguistic resources as well, to aid in the learning of various languages.
Whilst posting on this topic, I feel compelled to address what’s gone before (so-to-speak) on this thread, as well as the other threads on the same topic.
The Bible. Of course I’d bring it. All personal beliefs (or lack thereof) aside, only a fool would even attempt to deny the importance & influence of The Bible, or try to claim that it has little (or no) value to the modern reader.
The books that make up The Bible were originally written in Semitic (primarily Hebrew) dialects, as well as Koine Greek, with a few words & phrases in Persian & Latin as well.
So, texts (of The Bible) in these languages would naturally be on my list.
There are apparently well over 100 translations of The Bible or portions thereof into English.
Johnny Cash was known to have a library that included at least one copy of each of these translations.
I would also include these translations in my library.
I would include general reference books such as various & sundry dictionaries & encyclopedias.
I would include books (instructional & otherwise - whatever the most up-to-date “standards” are) dealing with subjects such as agriculture, botany, biology, building, construction, cooking, engineering, history, mathematics, medicine, sciences, technology, zoology, etc., etc…
Beyond that, I would include books found on lists of and in collections of seminal works such as Great Books of the Western World, Harvard Classics, How to Read a Book, etc...
I would also take a look at the Great Books Programs at Universities in Canada and The United States, and reading lists at certain respectable schools.
I’d probably end up with a library of close to 1,000 volumes, so far above the “three books” from The Time Machine, and there’d be no room on the titular machine for that...

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Over 1,000 books? One could postulate that you'd already been there, some 100 years before George, and that's why the Eloi whom George meets all speak English. And unfortunately, yours are the books 2nd Eloi shows George, decayed and crumbled to dust.

I don't think I'd include anything from our all-too-brief 5,000 year recorded history, especially religion. Separated from it by some 800,000 years, they would have no useful connection to it. There wouldn't be a single recognizable artifact save those from the Great Museum, some six miles away (in the book). Shakespeare would be meaningless to them.

I'm not sure anything instructional from our time would be much use, since the flora would be so changed. The book doesn't mention the survival of any fauna. I would really want knowledge from the intervening years, long after my time, but before theirs.

§« The Sleep of Reason Produces Monsters. »§

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I realize that there is some debate as to just exactly how "human" the Eloi & Morlocks are, and I won't enter into that debate.
However, I will say that - if they are "human" in some way - there must be some for whom the works of Shakespeare and The Bible would not be meaningless.
Both show an amazing ability to reach beyond their original cultural (and chronological) settings to have a dramatic impact upon readers far removed from the original writers (and subjects) in so many, many ways.
Whatever it is about these works that is so meaningful to us on such a fundamental level must surely be meaningful on the same level to any "human."
But, then again, there is that debate as to just exactly how "human" the Eloi & Morlocks are...

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It's hardly an issue of how human they are. You seem to assume that if they're human at all, they're bound to appreciate the 'obvious' merits of Shakespeare. Even in our own time, Shakespeare is dead, the exclusive province of cultural snobs; whether students passing through our school systems derive anything from their brush with the material, they're required to bow down and genuflect before the idol Western culture has made of Shakespeare, even if they don't understand it or really appreciate its merits. The students choose their battles - it's easier to just confess that Shakepeare is god, even if they don't feel it. It's expected.

This is often true of the Bible as well. People in our culture are raised to respect the *importance* of the Bible, even if they do not know its contents (and you would be shocked to discover how many, even Christians, have little knowledge of the Bible outside of the most superficial exposure). To most, the KJV's Elizabethan English is as off-putting as the language of Shakespeare. Efforts are made to render bibles in terms that can be understood today by the largest number of readers, and everytime this is done, the material moves further from its original meaning and intent.

Most Christians' connection with their religion is cultural, transmitted through social institutions like church and common shared culture, not usually through the specific contents of the Bible. They are frequently taken by surprise at things they did not know were in it. Would you want the Eloi to learn the concepts of rape, murder, and genocide?

When I said that the Eloi would be 800,000 years removed from the history and culture which are part of our background, I didn't mean that they would have physically evolved beyond the ability to appreciate our books, although that's possible - the ability to carry blocks of received culture in their memory might not have been necessary for ages, and they may have lost the capability. I meant that they're so far removed from our world and the things we take for granted that the text would be meaningless. You wouldn't get far in the Book of Genesis before you had to explain what an animal was, what a serpent was, etc. There would be nothing like that in the Decadent Age you could point to for an example, since the fauna was no longer there.

§« The Sleep of Reason Produces Monsters. »§

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When I was little I didn't like Shakespeare until I actually read some of his plays and watched some of the better film versions, and I"m far from a Cultural Snob as you should know.

"It's not about money

It's about sending a Message

Everything Burns!"

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Well then, since you have some familiarity with the material, you can conduct a trial run on bringing Shakespeare to the Eloi. Get a volume of his Complete Works, like the kind one would one take to the year 802,701 CE, and take it to large class of kindergarteners (for they are just about on an intellectual par with the film version of the Eloi), and see what success you have imparting the material to them.

If we were dealing with the book version, you'd have to teach them English first. Good luck with that!

§« The Sleep of Reason Produces Monsters. »§

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I didn't say I would Include Shakespeare among the books I'd bring.

"It's not about money

It's about sending a Message

Everything Burns!"

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EVERYBODY...JUST ANSWER THE QUESTION AND LAY OFF THE DIATRIBES!

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EVERYBODY...JUST ANSWER THE QUESTION AND LAY OFF THE DIATRIBES!

As I explained in the OP, "diatribes" are welcome here.

§« The Sleep of Reason Produces Monsters. »§

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As I said a year or two or three ago in the original thread like this which now appears to be gone:

I'd only take one book, and that is the Bible. No others are necessary. The Bible is more than sufficient to build a civilization to perfection.

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Yes, the other two threads complain of a thread containing what they term "Bible bashing," which is not currently extant. Most boards on the IMDb were abbreviated earlier this year.

You base that on what? - the Bible's success rate so far? You don't consider it necessary to bring something that could convey to them the barest modicum of sanitation, textile production, or plant cultivation (now that the Morlocks no longer do these things for them)? You would rather bring a source whose answer to every search for knowledge is "Goddidit?" Not to mention its intolerance?

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Actually our Modern sanitation system is modeled after what God laid out to Israel in the Torah.

"It's not about money

It's about sending a Message

Everything Burns!"

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That injunction to go to the edge of the camp to poo, and cover it up using a padde on the end of one's spear, lest the Lord God should step in it, doesn't quite cover it. (Deuteronomy 23:12-14)

Do cats do less?

§« The Sleep of Reason Produces Monsters. »§

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Your reading the wrong parts again.

You do knows this is why Jews weren't effected by the Black Plague right? Cause following the Torah they had a much more advanced Sanitation system.

"It's not about money

It's about sending a Message

Everything Burns!"

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Perhaps you can cite where modern sanitation is outlined in the Torah? And how Jews were unaffected by the Plague (which is really about controlling rat infestation)?

There is literally no end to the crazy things you say.

§« The Sleep of Reason Produces Monsters. »§

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http://www.hope-of-israel.org/bihealth.htm

Bubonic Plague -- Scourge of the Middle Ages

During the 14th century bubonic plague-called the "Black Death"-- struck Asia and spread to Russia, Persia, Turkey, North Africa and Europe. Perhaps one third of the world population died in that tragic epidemic.

The plague did not relent. Panic, confusion, and death struck everywhere. The dead were thrown into huge pits, mass graves, and rotting bodies lay about everywhere. The final grim toll of the Black Death was an estimated 60 million lives.

Balavignus was a distinguished Jewish physician who lived during the first part of the 14th century in Europe. He lived at a time when London and Paris were reeking with garbage and filth -- when refuse was simply thrown in the gutter and left to stink. Balavignus was a student of the Old Testament and was familiar with the medical information set forth in it.

When the Black Death broke out in 1346 and swept through Europe, like a hurricane, killing millions, Balavignus saw that the miserable sanitation throughout Europe was a major factor in the quick spread of the disease. He instituted a cleanup movement among the Jews of Strassburg. He had all refuse burned. The rats consequently left the Jewish ghettos and moved into the Gentile sectors of the city. As a result, the Jews' mortality rate from the plague was only five percent of what it was among their non-Jewish neighbors!

This striking fact did not go unnoticed by their superstitious Gentile neighbors. The general population soon saw the difference, and were amazed. But instead of emulating the Jewish hygienic measures, the surrounding people began to suspect the Jews of causing the plague by poisoning their wells! As a result, a general massacre was launched. Balavignus himself, persecuted and tortured, was finally compelled to "confess" that he and others were "responsible" for the frightful disease!

How was the Black Death finally conquered? Declared David Riesman, Professor of the History of Medicine at the University of Pennsylvania: "Isolation of the sick and quarantine came into use. These practices not only eliminated the plague as a pandemic menace for the first time in history but also led to general laws against infectious diseases, thereby laying the foundations upon which modern hygiene rests" (Medicine in the Middle Ages, p. 260).

Where did these principles originate? From the Bible!

The Old Testament contains many hygienic injunctions which relate to health. If the world would have obeyed them, its disease toll would have been drastically cut. Until the close of the 17th century, hygienic conditions in cities were generally deplorable. Excrement was often dumped into the streets. Flies, breeding in the filth, and rodents spread and carried disease to millions. During the Industrial Revolution working-class families sometimes lived in squalid, dark, airless tenements, perhaps 30 families sharing one toilet which probably was connected to a cesspool overflowing into the street. Some households simply emptied chamber pots out the window. As a result, streets sometimes looked more like garbage pits than avenues!

In 1842 Edwin Chadwick, an English lawyer, showed that the working-class suffered a higher incidence of disease than upper classes because of miserable living conditions. He reported on the unsatisfactory sanitary conditions and thus fostered a great sanitary movement throughout the Western world.

Self-seeking landlords and slum owners protested and opposed any clean-up measures, but gradually progress was made. By clearing away the filth, the sanitariums removed the breeding grounds of microbes which caused many diseases. As a result, in the second half of the 19th century, epidemics of typhus, typhoid, dysentery and cholera dramatically decreased.

The same lesson had to be learned the hard way in hospitals. During the first part of the 19th century, hospitals seldom had running water. Surgeons wiped their tools on their trousers. There was little regard for sanitation and cleanliness. Infections were rampant, and as many as one third of all pregnant women in hospitals died of puerperal fever, a form of blood poisoning.

However, unknown to scientists and men of medicine, incredibly, the principle of burying excrement and filth -- the basic underlying principle of MODERN SANITATION -- was a basic LAW given in the Scriptures, fourteen centuries before the Messiah. YEHOVAH God told Moses and the children of Israel:

"Thou shalt have a place also without the camp, whither thou shalt go forth abroad: and thou shalt have a paddle upon thy weapon; and it shall be, when thou wilt ease thyself abroad, thou shalt dig therewith, and shalt turn back and cover that which cometh from thee" (Deut. 23:12-13).

Says Castiglioni, "The regulations in Deuteronomy as to how soldiers should prevent the danger of infection coming from their excrement by covering it with earth constitute a most important document of sanitary legislation" (A History of Medicine, p. 70). Castiglioni declared, "Study of Biblical texts appears to have demonstrated that the ancient Semitic peoples, in agreement with the most modern tenets of epidemiology, attributed more importance to animal transmitters of disease, like the rat and the fly, than to the contagious individual" (Ibid., p. 71).

An indication that the Hebrews knew that the rat was implicated in the spread of plague is found in I Samuel 6:4-5, where an outbreak of plague was associated with "rats that have ravaged the whole land" (Living Bible). But 3,000 years later, when the Bubonic Plague devastated Europe, this knowledge had generally been lost. Some blamed noxious fumes in the air, some blamed the stars, some blamed a conjunction of Mars, Jupiter and Saturn, some blamed the Jews, and many blamed YEHOVAH God.

Generally, the world did not wake up to the importance of hygiene and cleanliness until about the end of the 18th century. Yet vital principles of sanitation and cleanliness were expounded long ago by YEHOVAH God to Moses!

Ancient Biblical Sanitation Laws

The Biblical laws of cleanliness, washings, and purification were not all merely "ceremonial" customs or rituals. They protected the camp of Israel from the dangers of contagious diseases and deadly plagues!

States Dr. D. T. Atkinson, "in the Bible greater stress was placed upon prevention of disease than was given to the treatment of bodily ailments, and in this no race of people, before or since, has left us such a wealth of laws relative to hygiene and sanitation as the Hebrews. These important laws, coming down through the ages, are still used to a marked degree in every country in the world sufficiently enlightened to observe them. One has but to read the book of Leviticus carefully and thoughtfully to conclude that the admonitions of Moses contained therein are, in fact, the groundwork of most of today's sanitary laws. As one closes the book, he must, regardless of his spiritual leanings, feel that the wisdom therein expressed regarding the rules to protect health are superior to any which then existed in the world and that to this day they have been little improved upon" (Magic, Myth and Medicine, Atkinson, p. 20).

Another plague which prevailed in the thirteenth and fourteenth centuries in Europe was leprosy. England, Sweden, Iceland and Norway showed alarming gains in the numbers of leprosy cases in the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries. But when the authorities began to institute the quarantine, in the form of segregation of leprosy cases, the plague was again brought under control.

In Norway rigid national quarantine was introduced in 1856 because of the widespread severity of leprosy. "Ninety years later the health authorities were able to report that Norway had only five per cent of the number of lepers that were there before segregation. Similarly favorable reports come to us from Finland and Sweden, where enforced segregation of lepers had also been instituted," writes D. T. Atkinson (Magic, Myth and Medicine, p. 64).

Where did these quarantine laws come from? This same author tells us,

"It is most singular that a description of leprosy, as found in the thirteenth chapter of Leviticus, could have been written so long before our time. it is to be noticed that such an accurate description of this dread malady as it appears in the Biblical narrative is not to be found in the literature of any nation for the next seventeen hundred years" (ibid., p. 25-26).

Speaking of the Biblical laws regarding leprosy, Atkinson states:

"The laws of health laid down in Leviticus are the basis of modern sanitary science. Moses ordered that cases of leprosy should be segregated, that dwellings from which infected Jews had gone should be inspected before again being occupied, and that persons recovering from contagious disease were not to be allowed to go abroad until examined. The modern quarantine harks back to these sanitary regulations of the Old Testament. " (p. 58).

Consider another example. In Vienna in 1846 Ignaz Semmelweis noticed that one patient in eight died of puerperal fever in one ward where they were tended by physicians and medical students who had just performed autopsies on victims who had died. He noticed that in a ward ministered by midwives, however, the death rate was much lower. He ordered all attendants to wash their hands before treating the patients and the following year the death rate dropped to zero. Unfortunately, the medical "authorities" were not impressed, refused to believe there was any direct connection, and Semmelweis was summarily dismissed from his job!

But the really remarkable fact is that Semmelweis, even though he was far ahead of the prevailing medical opinion of his time in the mid-1800's, was still 3,200 years behind in medical knowledge! Almost 1,500 years before the Messiah, YEHOVAH God gave Moses detailed instructions on cleaning one's hands and body after handling the dead! You can read these extensive hygienic laws in Numbers, the 19th chapter, verses 11-22.

Semmelweis made an important discovery, but merely washing the hands once would not be accepted as proper sanitation in any reputable hospital, today. However, the Biblical laws went further. They stated the person who touched a corpse was to be considered "unclean seven days." The third day he was to purify himself and be sprinkled with the water of separation or purification. That is, the water was to be thrown on him (Hebrew zaraq, "to throw" or "sprinkle"). Some authorities say that running water was to be used (verse 17). This duty was to be repeated on the seventh day, and the individual was then to wash his clothes and bathe himself in water -- and then he would be considered "clean."

Running water insured that the water was uncontaminated. The repeated washings insured that there were time intervals which allowed exposure to the sun to kill any bacteria which had not been washed off. The washing of clothing and change of clothes also insured protection from spreading infection.

Were these hygienic laws merely "rituals"? The answer is a profound and resounding "NO!" They were invaluable and wise safeguards from various sources of contamination! Clearly, regardless of the source of his wisdom, Moses was 3,000 years ahead of his time!

Speaking of His divine LAWS, which protect human health and vitality, YEHOVAH God declared to Moses and the children of Israel:

"If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I WILL PUT NONE OF THESE DISEASES UPON THEE, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I am the LORD that HEALETH THEE" [that is, His very name is Yahveh-Ropheka, which is Hebrew for "the Lord your Healer" -- that is one of His very names!] (Exodus 15:26).

Unfortunately, in our modern world nations are beginning to lose sight of the importance of sanitation and hygiene. Our modem cities are becoming increasingly polluted, filthy and dirty. Our air is becoming unfit to breathe because of pollutants; water is becoming fouled and contaminated with industrial chemicals and urban wastes. Some comic once joked that man is standing knee deep in garbage on earth while he hurls rockets at the moon!

Could the continuing decrease of sanitation, and the growing pollution and filth around us, be contributing factors in the increase in modem degenerative and contagious diseases?


"It's not about money

It's about sending a Message

Everything Burns!"

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This article makes many assertions, but without backing them up in any meaningful way. It's 100% bullcrap. There's no useful measures given in the Torah; it's not the rituals that constitute an example of modern hygenic methods, but the reasoning is simply that following the rituals will please the sky god, who will then not send the pestilence.

Have you ever stopped to think how filthy the practice of pouring out blood at the base of the altar, or sprinkling blood all over ritual furniture would be? There would be flies, maggots, rats - a sanitation nightmare!

The Torah doesn't even instruct one to boil the water before drinking it.

§« The Sleep of Reason Produces Monsters. »§

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You Fail.

"It's not about money

It's about sending a Message

Everything Burns!"

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You Fail.

Sounds like you have nothing to say.

As I noted elsewhere, you've gotten into the habit of not vetting your sources, and you cite material from fringe groups and cults. "Hope of Israel" is a cult.

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The propose of me linking to a site if cause other can explain these things better then I do, your insistence that I shouldn't link linked to a cite unless I agree with 100% of everything they say is absurd.

And you can find that exact same information on plenty other sites, just google it.

"It's not about money

It's about sending a Message

Everything Burns!"

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Yes, religious extremists have a tendency to copy each other, so that crap like what you cited, and how Einstein was a theist, become internet memes.

§« The Sleep of Reason Produces Monsters. »§

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Your refusal to accept as obvious verifiable fact of History is laughable, I'm done with this one.

"It's not about money

It's about sending a Message

Everything Burns!"

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Yes, religious extremists


I have found that most people who use language like this are in fact religious extremists them very selves, of the religion of atheism/darwinism.

Wells certainly was.

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...that atheism is a religion.


Poor baby.

§« The Sleep of Reason Produces Monsters. »§

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It depends on how you define Religion.

If you define only has a system of beliefs one vigorously holds onto then yes it definitely qualifies as a Religion.

"It's not about money

It's about sending a Message

Everything Burns!"

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Most people do not think they can get away with having their own special definitions for words.

§« The Sleep of Reason Produces Monsters. »§

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I'm referring only the 4 or 5 listed in the Dictionary.

Technically no Atheism isn't a religion, it's a type of religion, Judaism and Christianity are Monotheistic, Hinduism is Polytheistic, Buddhism is Atheistic.

People like you are Humanist, and in the old days no Humanist would have denied their beliefs qualified as a Religion.

"It's not about money

It's about sending a Message

Everything Burns!"

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Atheism isn't a religion, or a type of religion. Christianity is a religion.

I wasn't aware we'd shifted to talk about what I am; I thought we were talking about atheism and religion, and your special definitions of them.

Christians really need to come up with a new set of arguments. This one may do alright on the fundie retreat campgrounds, where everyone there is a 'tard, but it fails when it meets the real world.

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I have never tried to argue with you the Christianity is a religion, so don't insult me by playing this stupid game.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/religion
Main Entry: re·li·gion
Pronunciation: \ri-ˈli-jən\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English religioun, from Anglo-French religiun, Latin religion-, religio supernatural constraint, sanction, religious practice, perhaps from religare to restrain, tie back — more at rely
Date: 13th century
1 a : the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion> b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : conscientiousness
4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith

— re·li·gion·less adjective

Definition number 4 applies Atheists as much as anyone else.

If your insisting that a belief in some form of God or gods is required for the definition of Religion then Buddhism and Confucianism don't qualify or even Scientology, but no one seriously denies that those qualify as religions.

Your a Humanist weather your aware that that's what you or not.


"It's not about money

It's about sending a Message

Everything Burns!"

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I have never tried to argue with you the Christianity is a religion, so don't insult me by playing this stupid game.

It's a game you play all the time, based on that glib little piece of non-wisdom that "Religion is Man's attempt to reach God; Christianity is God's attempt to reach Man." Believer state this a number of different ways, and you yourself are constantly carrying on about how "true Christianity" isn't anything like organized religion.

The fourth definition of religion cannot apply to atheism without distorting the definition of atheism. It could be used in a descriptive way of a person, as in, "PD visits the IMDb religiously," but this is a departure from the normal meaning of the term, and does not actually connote religion.

The definitions are listed in order of prominence, and I note that the fourth definition comes after 'archaic.'

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I have never tried to convince you of that argument, cause I know it is true of only 1 definition of Religion. I have stated the Biblical Christianity isn't an "Organized" Religion but I've never denied it's a Religion.

It applies to Humanism which all western religion bashing atheist are whether they know it or not. You Believe Religion is evil and that is in and of itself a Religious belief.

Each definition is equally valid, their prominence is only base don what people wrongly assume.

"It's not about money

It's about sending a Message

Everything Burns!"

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You can't deny that you have said it before, even if you didn't seriously press the argument.

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No I didn't.

"It's not about money.... It's about sending a Message..... Everything Burns!!!"

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Don't make me go get Chx.

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But since no sane person defines religion as that, then no, Atheism is not a religion.

---------------------------------------------
Applied Science? All science is applied. Eventually.

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So, no books besides the Bible? Not even a First Aid primer?

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Is that directed at me? I said I'd bring History books.

"It's not about money.... It's about sending a Message..... Everything Burns!!!"

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[deleted]

"Perhaps you can cite where modern sanitation is outlined in the Torah?"

Instead of citing the Bible, instead he cites a crazy site that makes the same absurd claims (again, without citing where in the Pentateuch it says anything about sanitation).

Memory says, I did that. Pride replies, I could not have done that. Eventually, memory yields.

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Clearly didn't read the whole thing.

"Thou shalt have a place also without the camp, whither thou shalt go forth abroad: and thou shalt have a paddle upon thy weapon; and it shall be, when thou wilt ease thyself abroad, thou shalt dig therewith, and shalt turn back and cover that which cometh from thee" (Deut. 23:12-13).


"SLaughter is the best medicine"

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That is not modern sanitation. Every cat knows how to cover up its own crap.

I see they didn't say anything about wiping their asses.

How about boiling the water, or bathing, or hand washing? How about clothes washing? How about covering one's mouth when one sneezes or coughs? How about tips on food storage, or dish washing? There's nothing at all in that primitive book to recommend it, especially from a health standpoint.

They objected to swine (a ritual objection), but they lived like swine. The book didn't do anything to improve that.

Memory says, I did that. Pride replies, I could not have done that. Eventually, memory yields.

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thing is covering their own Crap is NOT what Gentiles where doing in Medieval Europe, and it is known that contributed to the spread of the plague cause it attracted Rats.

"Lois-I know who your HuSband is! Your Next!!"

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Dumping sewage into the streets and letting it run down a gutter in the middle of the street is far from the main reason for the rats.

You still haven't put up any evidence that Jews in the Middle Ages avoided the plague with any measure of success.

Memory says, I did that. Pride replies, I could not have done that. Eventually, memory yields.

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You don't consider it necessary to bring something that could convey to them the barest modicum of sanitation, textile production, or plant cultivation (now that the Morlocks no longer do these things for them)?


Humans prospered the first time with only God and the Bible, not with man-made sanitation books. So obviously, with God's help and the Bible, they would be able to figure out everything that they once knew again.

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Humans prospered the first time with only God and the Bible, not with man-made sanitation books. So obviously, with God's help and the Bible, they would be able to figure out everything that they once knew again.

Oh? So that's why Mohenjo-Daro, of the Indus Valley Civilization, had running water, indoor plumbing, and water closets which flushed waste out of the city, in the Third Millenium BCE, long before the Jews even existed as a people, or the Bible existed as a book?

Civilization did not begin with the Jews. They were latecomers on the scene, who were not even able to integrate or utilize the advances of cultures both before them and contemporary with them.

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Civilization did not begin with the Jews.


Civilization began with Adam and Eve, who survived and prospered without any books, but with God's help.

Therefore, there is no question that humans could do likewise once again.

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The civilizations of the Indus River, the Fertile Crescent, and Egypt began millenia before the earliest possible date one can obtain for the fictional Adae et Evae. James Ussher deduced, using certain fixed dates, that the first day of creation began at nightfall preceding Sunday October 23, 4004 BC, in the proleptic Julian calendar, near the autumnal equinox. J.B. Lightfoot similarly deduced that Creation began at nightfall near the autumnal equinox, but in the year 3929 BC.

But there are civilizations more ancient by far. Hell, the settlement of Jericho was inhabited nearly 9,000 years ago, in 6,800 BCE, and Damascus as long as 10,000 years ago! (psst! the Earth wasn't created by God in the 4th millenium BCE!)

navaros, you seem to be a Young Earth Creationist and a biblical literalist. How is it that, watching or reading The Time Machine, you haven't asked how come Christ hasn't returned by 802,701 CE?

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I agree that the Time Machine has other problems with its story, such as that Jesus will, as the Bible says, have returned as a conquering King long before the time of time machine ever occurs in reality.

But that's another ballpark than what we are dealing with here in these types of threads, hence I omit discussions about that from these threads for the sake of not straying too far offtopic.

As for your timelines: the 4004 B.C. date may not be 100% accurate because the Bible does not give enough information to pinpoint that as the exact date. The earth and man may well have been created 10 000 rather than 6000 years ago.

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[deleted]

The earth and man may well have been created 10 000 rather than 6000 years ago.




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Chx, if you were traveling forward in time and found a simple society, a sort of tabula rasa upon which you could write what you wished, which three books would you take with you to start them off in the right direction?

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See Chx only followed me here to troll me, she doesn't actually want to talk about this film.

"It's not about money

It's about sending a Message

Everything Burns!"

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I think she saw it too long ago to really discuss it.

When's the last time you saw it? If ever?

You'll have an opportunity Oct 17th, 2:30 pm, on Turner Classic Movies.

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The Jews where living in the Cities too, how fickle are you.

How about the murky History of your Religion?

"It's not about money

It's about sending a Message

Everything Burns!"

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[deleted]

And yet they where unaffected by the Black Plague.

Go ahead, live in denial.

"It's not about money

It's about sending a Message

Everything Burns!"

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And yet they where unaffected by the Black Plague.

So you say.
I once knew an Afrocentrist who claimed that Blacks were incapable of being sunburned. The claim has been made that Count Saint Germaine lived for centuries, and is still alive today. One must approach claims of immunity from the Plague with skepticism. You can't believe everything you hear, or read.

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Count Saint Germaine is actually an alias of Dracula in the Vampire mythology I'm writing.

"Lois-I know who your HuSband is! Your Next!!"

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Saint Germaine's already been a vampire, in the fiction of Chelsea Quinn Yarbro. Do something original.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Count_Saint-Germain_%28vampire%29

Pick another one of the speculative occultists or alchemists, someone relatively unexplored.

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I intend to touch on all of them, I have a very massive mythology I'm building.

I'm also making Nero a Vampire, but you've probably already deduced that from other comments I've made.

"Lois-I know who your HuSband is! Your Next!!"

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I'm also making Neora Vampire, but you've probably already deduced that from other comments I've made.


WTH?

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NERO

"Lois-I know who your HuSband is! Your Next!!"

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Jews were not allowed to live with the rest of the population - they were segregated into ghettos. How much they suffered and how they dealt with their dead wouldn't really be known to the Gentile population.

Memory says, I did that. Pride replies, I could not have done that. Eventually, memory yields.

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I would bring a Larousse Gastronomique and teach the Morlocks how to really cook!

Memory says, I did that. Pride replies, I could not have done that. Eventually, memory yields.

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I think the Morlocks prefer their food raw.

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It's interesting that in the other 'books' thread, believers want to endorse the Bible, but don't want to catch any criticism for their choice. One of those turnip-heads says, "My 3rd book would, indeed, be the Bible, so that there can be a positive, solid sense of morality." The thread's condition, "sans Bible bashing," prevents someone from challenging whether or not the Bible would provide a "positive, solid sense of morality."

IMO, the Bible is one of the most immoral books one could possibly offer the Eloi.

Memory says, I did that. Pride replies, I could not have done that. Eventually, memory yields.

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Most believers' hold on their faith is very fragile - that's why they can't handle any challenge to it.

The Bible is a monstrously immoral book, subverting any possible rational basis for ethical behavior. Exposing the Eloi to it would be a profound mistake, since it would teach them murder, theft, adultery, jealousy, rape, class/social hierarchy, slavery, genocide, dishonesty, greed, guilt, self-righteousness, and alcohol abuse. These behaviors no longer appear among the Eloi - why re-introduce them?

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On the scale of evolutionary and geologic time, across which the Time Traveller had traversed, the Bible would hold no frame of reference for either the Eloi or the Morlocks. It's part of a tiny snapshot of time in our very recent past, one that we need to work past.

Memory says, I did that. Pride replies, I could not have done that. Eventually, memory yields.

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It's part of a tiny snapshot of time in our very recent past, one that we need to work past.

You mean 'fictional past.'

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That's why the Eloi are boring.

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Wow thats a lot of responses in a very short period of time. I take it most people watched the movie this afternoon on Channel 4? I found myself strangely hooked to it. It was really ahead of its time in its execution. And I'm just a sucker for those quaint Victorian sets his house was set in I guess. Good show.

Skills!

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[deleted]

Here Here...

Skills!

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or Hear Hear if you want to be pedantic.

Skills!

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I wouldn't say that anyone today refutes evolution, though they certainly vainly try.

Wouldn't 'The Communist Manifesto' tend to favor the Morlocks?

Memory says, I did that. Pride replies, I could not have done that. Eventually, memory yields.

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Wouldn't 'The Communist Manifesto' tend to favor the Morlocks?


How so?

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I think those other thread poster only Forbade Bible bashing cause they where afraid that would inevitable dominate the thread, as it has this one to some degree.

"SLaughter is the best medicine"

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The bible is the elephant in the middle of the room. It's something a majority of people here in the West reflexively recommend, without really thinking it through, and it's my strong conviction that that needs to be challenged.

It would be the same if we were in the midst of a majority of Muslims, and a majority kept saying that they'd bring the Quran.

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They would have to explain to the Eloi why everything is out of order.

"SLaughter is the best medicine"

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What do you mean, 'out of order'?

It might be useful to explain to the Eloi how the human race became bifurcated as a result of long-ago wars, and how the Morlocks are their distant cousins. There's nothing in the bible that would be useful in addressing that.

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The Koran is completely out of order, most scholars think the Suras where probably written in reverse the order there currently in, and then ti wasn't even chronological to begin with.

Well the Time Travel wouldn't have in his office any books on that.

"SLaughter is the best medicine"

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The same can be said of the bible - the books do not appear in the order in which they were written. But that's irrelevant, anyway.

You're so sure that he wouldn't have a Quran, huh? You're probably right, though I wouldn't bet my life on it. It might be equally improbable that he would have a bible.

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They are relatively chronological thou.

With the Koran we have no idea where to actually even start.

No I didn't say he wouldn't have a Kornai said he wouldn't have a history book on the origins of the Eloi and Morlocks.

"SLaughter is the best medicine"

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No, they're really not. Add to that the fact that they were written across the span of a millenium, give or take, by different cultures, and in different languages. The Quran doesn't have those kinds of complications. But, IMO, they would both be off-limits to the Eloi.

As far as the origins of the Eloi and the Morlocks, he only has supposition, an educated guess. It is within his power to check it out, though.

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[deleted]

I think you're considering it in terms of what would be needed now, in the world we live in. The world of 802,701 is very different, and the Eloi are different. Even the stars overhead are unfamiliar.

All the plant life in that world has long since been genetically modified. You won't be able to match the plant life to anything in your book.

You won't need to build a shelter. There are buildings there that have stood longer than the pyramids.

The only practical use for fire would be keeping the Morlocks at bay. What would you propose to cook? That strange fruit with the three-sided husk that the Time Traveler made a staple of during his visit? There are no surviving fauna, no birds - just modified fruits and vegetables, designed during the "Golden Age" to be eaten as-is. There are no weeds.

The world of that time was very nearly designed to run itself. If you want to know how the clothes of that time are manufactured, and out of what materials, you'll need to explore the depths of the Morlocks' caverns, to find out how they do it, rather than consulting any books from our time.

The old school medical book would also be of limited use. The Eloi do not suffer from our ailments, and at any rate, the book presupposes the current existence of certain items - bandages, hydrogen peroxide, alcohol, surgical needles, scissors, blades - none of which can be manufactured there. You'd have to bring all of that with you.

One would run into the same problem if one brought a cookbook. One couldn't so much as bake a cake. No eggs, unless you brought chickens with you. No milk. Butter, flour, sugar - all these processed items we take for granted, and none of that would be there, and the process of trying to set these things up would be impractical.

The bible is the least practical one of all, unless you need a temporary source of toilet paper.

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All you've done in this thread is say why certain things are useless or a bad idea, tell me what would you bring?

"Lois-I know who your HuSband is! Your Next!!"

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I've already addressed that in the OP. I think that we're still in too primitive a state to assist the world of 802,701, even now in the 21st century (and I certainly wouldn't bring anything from the centuries prior to our time! - especially the Bible!). As I said, I'd explore the so-called "Golden Age" - thousands of years past us, but long enough before 802,701 as to still be considered ancient. They made that world what it is, bending all of nature to domestication and near self-sufficiency. One would need to understand the extent of what they did, and how they did it, in order to be able to address the issues of 802,701.

The data of that time was probably not set down in what we call 'books,' but in some other media, perhaps electronic.

Are you sure that the Morlocks represent something that needs fixing?

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So to you this whole decision is really pointless.

I dont believe in any time things would change that dramatically, cause I'm not an Evolutionist, I don't believe changes over time will changes the basics of what something is.

"Lois-I know who your HuSband is! Your Next!!"

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Whether or not you believe it is irrelevant - it's the reality espoused by the book.

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No, because the Books Author clearly that there where 3 books that would have been helpful.

"It's not about money.... It's about sending a Message..... Everything Burns!!!"

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No, because the Books Author clearly that there where 3 books that would have been helpful.

'Fraid not - that's a George Pal-ism, from the movie only.

You know, I suspect you've never really read it; I think you've spent your whole fixin'-to-be 26 year-old life avoiding and disregarding information you don't agree with.

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I have not claimed to have read the book.

"When the chips are down... these Civilized people... will Eat each Other"

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Why haven't you read it?

http://www.bartleby.com/1000/

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