Everytime I Think I've Heard Everything - Psycho (1960) Discussion

[–] swanstep (2750) 4 years ago

We had a thread here on one of the best presentations, due to Lindsay Ellis, of the argument that Psycho fed into popular transphobia:
https://moviechat.org/tt0054215/Psycho/60346b982242414dbb4af156/Lindsay-Ellis-on-the-roots-of-Transphobia-in-Pop-Culture-Psycho-features

Ellis is aware of the kinds of points you make about Psycho hence the extent to which calling Psycho itself trans-phobic is unfair. Maybe watching her presentation (at least the middle 20 minutes or so that I link to) will help you see, however, how Psycho's great influence on subsequent films has included being foundational for one big strand of transphobic representation in pop culture.

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[–] Garyandfilm (548) 4 years ago

Sorry, what i saw was rubbish. "Psycho" has zero, zip, zilch to do with transphobia or trans people.

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[–] Gubbio (3893) 4 years ago

I am SO SICK of this PC shit and the cancel culture. It's enough to make you want to leave "civilization" and go live in the mountains with the goats.

The goats have more sense! 🙄 🐐

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[–] swanstep (2750) 4 years ago

@Gubbio. While some over-zealous monitoring of media or speech surely does get tiresome, I guess that it does seem to me that the 'sexual minorities as convenient agents of villainy' trope is real, has plausibly had terrible consequences for many members of those groups in society, and as part of efforts to do better, to avoid stigmatizing/creatign culutral time-bombs for such groups in the future is worth the history of when 'we' all were less careful about such matters is worth facing up to. And while Psycho (1960) is quite careful to distinguish Norman's specific case from any standard sexual grouping (and Hitchcock was personally very open to and accepting of sexual minorities having experienced Berlin at its peak sexual wildness in the 1920s, and even in his 70s and very out of shape etc. Hitch was known to hang out at places like Plato's Retreat when in NYC), lots of self-consciously Psycho-apeing material was less careful, including Hitch's own famous TV episode that used the Psycho House set, 'An Unlocked Window':
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7mvymi
Rather than a disambiguating diagnosis being offered, America was left to draw its own conclusions, almost certainly including that trans-gender people are terrifying monsters (and perhaps that all sexual minorites are). That happened, it had consequences (in concert with lots of other parallel messages of this sort sent out into the world in subsequent decades). Expending *some* amount of energy to get clear about what happened in the past as part of trying to construct a better, more inclusive society in the future seems to me to be an entirely reasonable project and thing to do.

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[–] Gubbio (3893) 4 years ago

Sorry, swanstep, you're off base here.

I think we all agree that Psycho was not about trans. It was about a very sick young man.

I have no animosity toward LBGTQ people, and I resent the implication that I do. And, if some of them are offended by Psycho, that's just too bad.

I'm tired of being preached to by holier-than-thou people -- particularly from the left -- that good is bad, old is new, black is white, and up is down.

No one is allowed to have an opinion anymore. If you don't march in lockstep with "them," then you are canceled.

construct a better, more inclusive society

Over Psycho? Sorry, but this is pure bullshit. 💩

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[–] [deleted] 4 years ago

This is what we get for not taking a closer look at what universities have been preaching the last six decades.

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[–] ecarle (14979) 4 years ago

while I certainly respect swanstep's insights into this particular issue...I think what we are seeing with the Turner Classic Movies "scolding of Psycho" and some attendant attempts to view the movie through modern eyes is: not-very-smart people writing about a movie that is smarter than they are. (Again, this is not relevant to swanstep's analysis.)

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America was left to draw its own conclusions, almost certainly including that trans-gender people are terrifying monsters (and perhaps that all sexual minorites are).

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That sentence would apply to "An Unlocked Window," but not to Psycho in which we don't spend the movie fearing a trans-gender person...we spend the movie fearing a deranged(eh, psycho) old woman with an obscene amount of strength to carry out her killings.

I remain disturbed that the show runners of the "Bates Motel" cable series elected to have Norman commit HIS shower murder in his "regular man clothes." The show runners felt that the dress and wig would offend trans sensibilities.

These are not daring men. These are fearful, cowardly men, sadly working in an industry that has removed a great deal of the freedom that peaked in the 70's, while emerging with Psycho in the 60's. These showrunners feared that they would get fired.

Psycho isn't Psycho if Norman kills AS Norman, in male clothing.

Its funny. Villains have been slowly "narrowed down" to near nothingness today. No foreign countries can be named in American pictures (save Russian gangsters and sometimes, middle east terrorists.) No ethnic villains. No gay villains. No trans villains. Just generic white guys -- usually in the employ of renegade CIA puppetmasters. But ah , in recent years, the FBI And CIA can't be as bad as they used to be portrayed in the 70s. They have defenders in the press.

Enjoy the old movies.

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[–] ecarle (14979) 4 years ago

PS. To my sweeping "rule" above, I note exceptions. HBO and Warners have offered up yet ANOTHER subpar "movie in theaters and on HBO Max same month movie for May. This one posits Angelina Jolie as its star -- as an earlier film this year used Denzel -- and is equally "empty", a TV movie more than a movie movie.

The main hitmen villains are two white guys. Their villainous government-corporate? boss is...black. (And a famous black actor at that. Nice cameo in a bad movie.)

The movie entitled "Those Who Wish Me Dead" is basically "Die Hard in a Forest Fire"(Angie has the Bruce Willis role, here as a forest firefighter) but with a poor script.

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[–] ecarle (14979) 4 years ago

Rather than a disambiguating diagnosis being offered, America was left to draw its own conclusions, almost certainly including that trans-gender people are terrifying monsters (and perhaps that all sexual minorites are).

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But there are aberrations within these sexual minorities. Take Ed Gein, the "inspiration" for Norman Bates. He didn't dress in his mother's clothes. He dressed in women's SKIN.

I believe that John Wayne Gacy(the "clown" killer)'s victims were all young males. This would make him a 'gay killer," but not a killer BECAUSE he was gay.

Etc.

And of course, there were many male heterosexual psychopathic killers as well. Ted Bundy. The Golden State Killer.
(In movies, I still think that Hitchcock's Bob Rusk in Frenzy came closest to this model.)

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[–] Garyandfilm (548) 4 years ago

We do NOT know for certain that the male killer who dresses as a nurse is genuinely trans (oh, for the love of heaven). His goal simply is to fool people into believing he is safe, as "she herself" is a "nurse", hence getting the inside track to murder real nurses.

My only issue with "An unlocked Window" is the killer is very obvious to today's viewers.

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[–] ecarle (14979) 4 years ago

SPOILERS for An Unlocked Window

We do NOT know for certain that the male killer who dresses as a nurse is genuinely trans (oh, for the love of heaven). His goal simply is to fool people into believing he is safe, as "she herself" is a "nurse", hence getting the inside track to murder real nurses.

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I take that point, yes, its true. At the same time, I expect that when the "reveal" comes at the end, Hitchcock (as the showrunner) knew it would summon up some thoughts about that "issue"(which wasn't entirely verboten back then -- there was a woman named Christine Jorgenson who was in the news.)

Indeed, the man who played the killer (TC Jones) specialized in drag work. Not just a wig and dress -- a feminine VOICE. He did the same schtick on an episode of The Wild Wild West, revealing himself as a cross-dressing killer and THEN getting into a big duke-out with hero James West(Robert Conrad.)

And I don't know exactly how TC Jones identified in real life. Man? Woman? Gay? Trans? It simply never came up. TC (catch that name, it allowed him to guest star as a cross-dresser)just "existed."

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[–] ecarle (14979) 4 years ago

My only issue with "An unlocked Window" is the killer is very obvious to today's viewers.

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Funny response here from me. I first saw the 1965 episode in 1972 as a re-run. In the summer of 1972, Hitchcock's scary-enough comeback hit Frenzy was in theaters and evidently Universal shipped all the hour-long Hitchcocks to far-flung towns(such as mine) to play 5 nights a week(late at night.) Each episode came equipped with a "Frenzy" commercial. (The most famous: Hitchcock buying neckties from -- Gavin Elster from Vertigo!(Tom Helmore).)

Anyway, I was dazzled by An Unlocked Window and its effective use of the Psycho house exterior and -- I was totally and completely surprised when nurse Dana Wynter grabbed at the chest of the heavyset other nurse (whose voice was now male and..eek!..LAUGHING in murderous delight) and the nurse's uniform opened up to reveal a ...hairy chest.

Yep, I fell for it. Thought that the "big nurse" was indeed a female actress..until the end.

This was scary in 1972 and I'm sure it was scary in 1965. The same night I watched An Unlocked Window at home, a younger female friend watched it at her home and I'll never forget her statement was on how scary the show was: "It was so scary that I could not bring myself to cross the room to turn the TV off, I didn't want to get that close to it!" (This was when remote controls weren't so in use.)

By allowing the Psycho house to be used prominently in one of his TV episodes, Hitchcock was sort of producing his own "Psycho II" and tying his most scary movie to this, his most scary TV episode. And there WAS a difference in "creep" factor between Anthony Perkins(rather clumsily dressed in Mother's clothes over his man's pants and shirt) and the "all in" TC Jones (with his/her wearing the nurse's outfit and wig AS a woman.)

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[–] ecarle (14979) 4 years ago

Notes in passing about An Unlocked Window:

The show is about a killer of nurses. About a year later, a REAL psycho(Richard Speck) would stab to death a whole group of nurses in the Chicago apartment that they shared. He tied them up in one room, then took them one by one into another room and killed each one. Except one hid and survived. Also, I think they were actually nursing STUDENTS but the name stuck: "The Chicago Nurse Killings."

The killers' catch phrase as he kills: "My...what a pretty nurse."

The killer's maniacal laugh is the stuff of nightmares -- and something that Hitchcock did NOT use for Mrs. Bates. Might have made her scarier still. I believe that the script called for Mrs. Bates to laugh manically during the shower scene.

A staple of the Hitchcock TV series that made it special: at the end, the "heroine" (pretty Dana Wynter) is indeed killed by TC Jones. Heroes and heroines COULD get killed on the Hitchcock show. It was an anthology so these weren't "series regulars." And the killers COULD get away with it "on screen during the story." As long as Hitchcock came on at the end to tell us the cops later arrested the killer.

Hitchcock tells us at the end of An Unlocked Window: "Eventually the killer attacked an undercover cop dressed like a woman."

Evidently some of Hitchcock's "explanations" could get silly. Such as a villain being caught by a cop undercover as ...a dog?

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[–] ecarle (14979) 4 years ago

They remade "An Unlocked Window" in color in the 80's when there was a "Hitchcock series revival." The now-dead Hitchcock made his introductions and wrap-ups "colorized" from the original series -- a very 80s artifact.

Anyway, in THIS "Unlocked Window" the killer wasn't overweight and bald when the wig and dress came off -- he was boyish and skinny with a head of hair.

Played by Bruce Davison, who some years before had been "Williard."

Talk about a "giveaway performer" -- it was clear that this nurse was a man.

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[–] ecarle (14979) 4 years ago

Anyway, I was dazzled by An Unlocked Window and its effective use of the Psycho house exterior and -- I was totally and completely surprised when nurse Dana Wynter grabbed at the chest of the heavyset other nurse (whose voice was now male and..eek!..LAUGHING in murderous delight) and the nurse's uniform opened up to reveal a ...hairy chest.

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I "buried the lede" and I guess it will be a controversial one:

It WAS scary to contemplate a hairy-chested, bald man in the guise of a woman. However much we are to acclimate ourselves to the look of the trans person today, in this context -- late at night, a dark old house, a raging rainstorm, a mad killer on the loose -- that trans look WAS scary.

Same with Anthony Perkins in a granny dress, though with a difference there:

Norman in Mama's clothes looks...borderline ridiculous...but the reason audiences screamed so long and so hard at the reveal is that this confirmed that THIS ridiculous looking man was capable(we had seen) of the most brutal and vicious knife attacks imaginable. Suddenly, the drag outfit was "infected" by our memories of the horrible murders Norman(we now realized) committed.

I akin Perkins in drag in Psycho to the fake shark in Jaws -- they both look kind of ridiculous, but we fear them because we've seen the kind of killings they are capable of.

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[–] Gubbio (3893) 4 years ago

and the nurse's uniform opened up to reveal a ...hairy chest.

At this revelation (or revulsion) I remember my Grandmother exclaiming in Italian, "Hair on the chest, no hair on the head!!!" 😲

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[–] Garyandfilm (548) 3 years ago

I majorly disagree about the shark in Jaws. I've seen the film many, many times since its initial release, and now own it on Blu Ray. The shark looks VERY real, in every shot.

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[–] christomacin (4697) 3 years ago

I just remembered where I had seen T.C. Jones before. He had a brief cameo in the Monkee's 1968 film "Head", in which he played a "waitress". https://youtu.be/Q4nT-5DyjX0?t=1800 Peter Tork punches out the "waitress" (for no particular reason), and the audience is shocked until the director (it's a film within a film) calls "cut" and the waitress is revealed to be a man in drag.https://youtu.be/Q4nT-5DyjX0?t=2151 You can also see a young pre-Easy Rider Jack Nicholson walk past in this shot.. he was one of the producers of the film (along with Bob Rafelson), chosen evidently for his ability to add some "counter culture street cred" to the proceedings. According to this article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T._C._Jones Jones appears to have been straight (or at least bi) since he was married. He was particularly noted for his impersonation of Tallulah Bankhead, who of course appeared in Hitchcock's "Lifeboat" in 1944.

Anyway, back to "An Unlocked Window". Lots of misdirects to keep the viewer interested. For instance, the window being opened turns out to be irrelevant to the story. We also have the line of dialog about the killer potentially popping out from nowhere, "from behind the stairs or on the landing" (which is a call back to Psycho). Of course, nothing pops out from the landing or behind the stairs.

P.S. Love that dry British humor from Hitch. "But first, some sound and fury... signifying our sponsor's product" (replacing "signifying nothing" from Shakespeare's Macbeth).

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[–] ecarle (14979) 3 years ago

I just remembered where I had seen T.C. Jones before. He had a brief cameo in the Monkee's 1968 film "Head", in which he played a "waitress". https://youtu.be/Q4nT-5DyjX0?t=1800 Peter Tork punches out the "waitress" (for no particular reason), and the audience is shocked until the director (it's a film within a film) calls "cut" and the waitress is revealed to be a man in drag.https://youtu.be/Q4nT-5DyjX0?t=2151

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You can see that cross-dressing has roots in American entertainment. Exactly what KIND of sexual transfer we are talking about is all over the place these days, but TC Jones made quite a good living off of this in the 60's, with the basics: a man dressed as a woman who PASSES as a woman.

That remains the "funny" part of Psycho. At the end, Norman Bates in granny wig and dress simply looks like...a man dressed as a woman.

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You can also see a young pre-Easy Rider Jack Nicholson walk past in this shot.. he was one of the producers of the film (along with Bob Rafelson), chosen evidently for his ability to add some "counter culture street cred" to the proceedings.

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I was a big "Monkees" fan as a kid in the 60'. The foursome were great "buddies" for a boy to watch(girls at school thought I was like one of them, and other boys were like other ones); most episodes climaxed with a music video chase(ala Hitchcock); the music(by Carole King and Neil Diamond among others) was all over the radio and records. It was a "two-season wonder."

Imagine my surprise when Bob Rafelson(a big Monkees producer) and Jack Nicholson(rather a "hanger on" and poor screenwriter) rode The Monkees right on into 70's counterculture movie success(starting with Five Easy Pieces.) Reversibly, the Monkees stayed hip BECAUSE of their connection to Nicholson.

Note in passing: this aged Monkees fan saw two of them in concert a few years ago: Mike Nesmith(who had ditched the band for decades) and Mickey Dolenz. I knew every song. It was marvelous.

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[–] ecarle (14979) 3 years ago

Anyway, back to "An Unlocked Window". Lots of misdirects to keep the viewer interested.

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Misdirects are fun, yes?

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For instance, the window being opened turns out to be irrelevant to the story.

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YEP. The danger was inside, all the time.

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We also have the line of dialog about the killer potentially popping out from nowhere, "from behind the stairs or on the landing" (which is a call back to Psycho).

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There you go. I love so much of the perfection of Psycho(the original only.) The shower at the motel creates one kind of fear. The staircase in the house...another kind. And women AND men have reason to fear getting killed.

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Of course, nothing pops out from the landing or behind the stairs.

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But it might. This powered Psycho through Lila Crane's exploration of the house. We SAW Mother come popping at Arbogast (like a trap door spider pouncing on a sand mouse.) She could do it AGAIN, anytime, anywhere...in that house.

Or in the house in "An Unlocked Window."

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[–] ecarle (14979) 3 years ago

P.S. Love that dry British humor from Hitch. "But first, some sound and fury... signifying our sponsor's product" (replacing "signifying nothing" from Shakespeare's Macbeth).

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A critic who raved about the premiere of "Alfred Hitchcock Presents" in 1955 wrote: "One of the best things about Alfred Hitchcock Presents is...Alfred Hitchcock presenting."

It was true. Hitch proved to have a great voice(essential to an "actor") and a great puckish attitude and delivery. A little hammy sometimes, but we really SENSED the make of this man. That's why people loved him , the world over.

Hitch turned down acting roles. Leo McCarey wanted him to do a film with Cary Grant. Otto Preminger wanted him to play a gangster called "God" in "Skidoo" -- Old Groucho Marx played the part.

Its probably just as well. Hitchcock was a great personality, not an actor.

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[–] Stratego (30822) 3 years ago

This is very confusing. The psychiatrist at the end emphasizes that Norman is NOT a transvestite.

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[–] liscarkat (19031) 3 years ago

"trans people aren't sick"

It is clearly a psychological aberration, a mental illness. In the case of millions of teenage girls suddenly deciding that they are boys, it is mass hysteria. They need to be treated, not affirmed.

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