Would Marion still be alive if, in the words of The Professor (Leo G Carroll to Cary Grant in North By Northwest): "Had you not made yourself so damnably attractive ..." ???
If Norman hadn't been attracted to her, she'd still be alive, because the attraction is what drove "Mother" crazy.
Wayne Enterprises buys and sells companies like Stark Industries
To me I wonder if she would have been alive had to stayed to chat longer instead of returning to her room. Maybe keep Norman's mind occupied and leave mother at bay.
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Mm, I don't think that would have even been possible unless she stayed up the entire night with him and never went to her room at all.
"Why couldn't the monkey arrange this from INSIDE the garbage can?"
I think that would have set "mother" off as well. Have to face facts, Marion was doomed the minute she walked into that place.
sharedefinitely.
shareyeah it's too bad Janet Leigh was a stone cold fox,
otherwise she would've made it
Margaret Hamilton in the role would have completed her shower with no problem.
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Actually the movie touches on this...Norman tells Arbogast that "an old couple came by a week ago." And stayed. We can figure that single men of all ages(including lots of travelling farm equipment salesmen) and old couples stayed at the Bates Motel with no incident.
But the psychiatrist relates that, in the ten years since Norman murdered his mother and her lover -- TWO and ONLY two "young girls" came to the motel(we can assume), stayed there alone(we can assume), and were killed by Mother/Norman.
We can figure that the "single young attractive women" who made the mistake of staying alone at the Bates Motel (and there were only three in ten years) aroused Norman enough to trigger mother.
A bonus question: what if a YOUNG couple had come to the Bates Motel, to do what Sam and Marion do at the beginning of Psycho (and more.) After all, young couples DO like to use motels for sex, yes? And Norman DID like to peep (and could HEAR things).
I'll guess that if a young couple came to the Bates Motel to have sex, the woman aroused Norman and the man kept Mother from taking over. Also, maybe Norman booked such couples far away from Cabin One and the peephole.
Psycho IV: The Beginning, in prequel scenes, we see that Norman's first two female victims were NOT motel guests. One was a local teenage tart who tried to seduce Norman up at the house; the other was a local 30-something floozie who tried to seduce Norman in a car by the motel(and got STRANGLED, not stabbed. Poor form.)
I don't believe that fan fiction. I think the earlier two women who were killed stopped at the motel, just like Marion.
And notice how Mother doesn't even give Marion "special billing" in her diatribe in the cell at the end:
"In the end, he was going to tell them that I killed those girls...and that man...as if I could do anything other than just sit and stare."
Marion was just "one of those girls." Nothing special.
So it’s her fault she died because she was attractive?
Isn’t that the same ridiculous accusation some lunatics make about rape victims?
So it’s her fault she died because she was attractive?
Isn’t that the same ridiculous accusation some lunatics make about rape victims?
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Well, that's of course a very good point. I don't think anyone's saying it was HER fault being so attractive and hence arousing Norman to murder her(as Mother).
But she was attractive, and seen naked by Norman and that's where things went.
From what I've read , in real life, some very UNATTRACTIVE women have still managed to arouse psychopathic sex killers Everything is relative.
Still the movie is a cautionary tale at the end. Women alone on the open highway -- ESPECIALLY attractive women -- must be vigiliant, and alert, and not do certain things, if only to PROTECT themselves.
Marion's first risk was stealing the money. Marion's SECOND risk was setting off on the open highway without the companionship of a man -- or even of another women. THAT was her "fault" --taking the risky trip alone in the first place. Without a gun or pepper spray. I"m not sure pepper spray as a product for women was available in 1960. Her THIRD fault was staying at the Bates Motel -- if not in general, PARTICULARLY after she heard mother's ugly rant ("She won't be filling her ugly appetite with MY food...or MY son!") PARTICULARLY after Norman (channelling Mother) was mean to her in the parlor("People cluck their thick tongues and suggest oh so very delicately...") Marion should have gotten in her car and the hell out of there. To Sam... a mere15 miles away!
Further Hitchcockian irony: on her first night alone on the open highway, Marion sleeps in her car overnight.
The highway patrol cop who finds her sleeping and wakes her up says:
"There are plenty of motels in the area. You should have....just to be safe..."
Hi roger1, I think you made a lot of good points (as you often do in regards to Psycho), however, your paragraph beginning with "Marion's first risk ... ," raises some questions.
You mention a gun and pepper spray. Even if she were so armed, would it be reasonable for her to take a gun or pepper spray in the shower. She would have had to have 'read the script,' and known that there was a peep hole and that someone at the motel would break into her private room with a butcher's knife. I could see her having pepper spray or a revolver for the night spent in her car, but even if she slept with one or the other under her pillow, would she have taken that into the shower?
I don't think she should have thought to have gotten in her car and driven to Sam 15 miles away. Despite "Mother's" ugly rant, it would be unreasonable to think that an old woman would attack her in her hotel room. Also, Marion's exchange with Norman did not leave her feeling unsettled. Rather, Norman (unwittingly) convinced her to do the right thing and return to Phoenix to give back what was left of the money. She was planning to drive back the very next morning, not continue on to Sam's with the cash. She may have thought Norman was an odd young man, but he did not appear to her as a psycho killer. If anything he appealed to her better angels, and she was going to do something positive as a result of her brief interaction with him.
Marion's first risk ... ," raises some questions.
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Hi CalvinJarrett...indeed my thoughts DO raise some questions. And your answers are certainly good ones. TOO good, I suppose.
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You mention a gun and pepper spray. Even if she were so armed, would it be reasonable for her to take a gun or pepper spray in the shower.
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Ha. NO. Of course not. As someone wrote around here, she was doomed from the moment she got to The Bates Motel.
On the other hand, if this were a "totally wary" young woman on the road alone, maybe she would have SKIPPED the shower, pulled out her gun and pepper spray next to her bed stand and even blocked the cabin door with a chair.
(I am among those who saw Psycho and though showers have never worried me, I HAVE blocked doors with chairs in some motels in really bad neighborhoods. Psycho taught me: the owner has a key. And chain locks can be broken. Not necessarily so with those power locks.)
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She would have had to have 'read the script,' and known that there was a peep hole and that someone at the motel would break into her private room with a butcher's knife.
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Ha. You know in a zombie spoof of some years ago called "The Dead Don't Die," cop Adam Driver is talking in his squad car to cop Bill Murray and we get this dialogue:
Driver: I tell you, this isn't going to end well.
Murray: You keep saying that -- this isn't going to end well. How do you know?
Driver: You really want to know?
Murray: Yeah..
Driver: (Pauses) Well, because I read the script.
Aside from the whole Marion Crane shower sequence, I often watch the Arbogast sequence when he is walking up that hill at night to that creepy house, and I say:
"Doesn't this guy KNOW he's in a horror movie?" I wouldn't walk right up to a house like that, especially at night.
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CONT
I could see her having pepper spray or a revolver for the night spent in her car, but even if she slept with one or the other under her pillow, would she have taken that into the shower?
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No, of course not, but I will suggest that she would NOT HAVE TAKEN the shower -- exposed herself like that -- if she was "really on guard." She'd keep the gun and pepper spray on the bedstand.
I don't think she should have thought to have gotten in her car and driven to Sam 15 miles away. Despite "Mother's" ugly rant, it would be unreasonable to think that an old woman would attack her in her hotel room. Also, Marion's exchange with Norman did not leave her feeling unsettled. Rather, Norman (unwittingly) convinced her to do the right thing and return to Phoenix to give back what was left of the money. She was planning to drive back the very next morning, not continue on to Sam's with the cash. She may have thought Norman was an odd young man, but he did not appear to her as a psycho killer. If anything he appealed to her better angels, and she was going to do something positive as a result of her brief interaction with him
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Your analysis here is VERY good...because at the end of the Norman/Marion dialogue, he HAS convinced her to go back to Phoenix, and there WOULD HAVE been trouble if Marion had driven the 15 (highly tragic and ironic) miles to "safety with Sam." (Of course, she could have driven there and not told him about the money and hidden it "I just wanted to come up and surprise you, Sam.")
Still, I think "under a reality principle," that (1) hearing the rages of the old woman TOWARDS MARION and (2) dealing with Norman when HE rages(Marion looks scared by him, and shortly ends the conversation to leave) would make staying at THAT place, with THOSE people -- and no one else at the motel -- she might well have left(cowardly me would have). She doesn't even have to drive to Sam. Just find another motel or boarding house(Arbogast found a bunch of them nearby.)
Norman DOES "pull back" to his "nice guy status" after his rage and Marion is perhaps fooled by his return. Though she inadvertently insults him: "I'm going all the way back to Phoenix, before its too late for me, too."
Too late for ME, TOO.
CONT
I also think this: to the "unitiated Psycho audience" -- the people back in 1960 AND people today -- who don't know where the plot will go, Mother's offscreen yelling at Marion and Norman's shift to quiet rage in the parlor --PLUS those stuffed birds, PLUS lines like "It would be cold and damp, like the grave" are meant to creep out THE AUDIENCE, to put them in a suspense that they just can't put a finger on: "That house is creepy, that Mother is mean, this guy Norman is cute but kind of creepy too -- "A boy's best friend is his mother.'
So WE, the audience are afraid for Marion even if SHE isn't afraid for herself.
A sad and scary real life story:
I think this was a couple of decades ago. A woman, her teenage daughter and the daughter's friend took a trip to Northern California, I think to see Yosemite Park. But they stayed in a motel one night in that area.
And they disappeared. Investigators found out that the motel handyman - a young man - -had been admitted into the room to make repairs and had somehow, one by one, managed to kill all three women.
So it CAN happen at a motel to women, and being in a group is not guaranteed for safety.
CONT
She may have thought Norman was an odd young man, but he did not appear to her as a psycho killer. If anything he appealed to her better angels, and she was going to do something positive as a result of her brief interaction with him
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Well, it was a brief interaction, and he WAS a handsome man (said Hitchcock, "Killers have to be handsome -- otherwise victims wouldn't come near them"), and he was nice more often than not AND he really seemed to understand and care about her.
When Hitchocck pitched Anthony Perkins to change his career and take this psycho role, he said "Tony, you ARE this picture."
That's why Marion stayed.
Your words: "Hitchcock pitched Anthony Perkins to change his careeer," really are profound, roger1. I am not too familiar with Anthony Perkins' career before 1960, but after 1960, the rest of his career seemed to be etched in 'Norman Bates-esque' roles. Pretty Poison (1968), Play it as it Lays (1972), Murder on the Orient Express (1974), Mahogany (1975), maybe The Black Hole (1979) (but I don't remember enough of it), and certainly Psycho II (198_?). There may be some others I have missed between '60 and '68, and certainly some I am not familiar with post Psycho II. But I don't know that any other actor has ever been so affected by a single role than Anthony Perkins was by Norman Bates. Interestingly, Though Hitchcock went on to make many more films after 1960 up until his final movie Family Plot in 1976, I am not aware of him casting Anthony Perkins in any of those films over those next 16 years. I wonder if Hitch realized that he had typecast Perkins so indelibly that the audience would think, "What's Norman Bates doing there? I thought he would still be in that asylum."
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