MovieChat Forums > The Big Country Discussion > Major Terrill and his daughter

Major Terrill and his daughter

posted 19 years ago by threeoranges
57 replies | jump to latest

I have to ask - is Patricia's adoration for her father just hero-worship, or something a bit more twisted? Both the Hannasseys and Terrills are decidedly not normal: if Rufus Hannassey hates his son Buck so much, maybe the Terrills have a deliberately contrasting relationship where Patricia and her father love each other... a little too much.

I'm not throwing incest or an Electra complex into the discussion just to be cheaply provocative, by the way! Patricia's romantic idolization of her father ("you're not half the man he is!") came close to making my skin crawl. Am I alone in this reaction?

[–] grantch 11 years ago

Although I'm 71, last night on my local PBS station was the first time I ever saw "The Big Country". Seemed to me an incestuous relationship between the Major and Pat (and a not so subtle hint of a sexual relationship between the Major and Reed) were quite clear.

If any of you had been following a CBS soap opera in the early '60's "Love of Life", you'd remember that an unstable Barbara after divorcing her husband attempted to break up her father Bruce and her stepmother Vanessa and clearly had an incestuous fixation on Bruce, although it was never gratified.

In the 1950's and 1960's incest was a topic which could not be directly addressed, only hinted at, in popular motion picture entertainment. Clearly with the popularity of William Inge, Arthur Miller and Tennessee Williams on the Broadway stage as well as community theater groups across the U.S., the stage presentations were much more at liberty to portray latent desires and actions than the film industry.

I was very pleased with "The Big Country" and am rather surprised last night was my first viewing of this great film, so well directed and acted.

[–] vinidici 11 years ago

Couldn't agree less about the "incestuous relationship" inferences you've drawn. If it were true it would not have been lost on the Jim McKay character and he would have withdrawn from Pat in shock and disgust and not merely on account of his sad disappointment in her for her gross immaturity and other foibles which are common to many of us.

Moreover, the Major was many things, but having a sexual relationship with his own daughter is ONE thing he'd never do. Do you really think Steve Leach would have "rode into hell itself" at Blanco Canyon for the Major if this were true? How would Steve NOT know it was true, as close as he is to the family and considering his own feelings for Pat?

Sorry, that interpretation of the Major / Pat dynamic just doesn't ring true to me.

Okay folks, show's over, nothing to see here!

[–] vinidici 11 years ago

Has anybody read the source novel? I would love to own a copy but I'm going to go out on a limb and assume, sight unseen, that there aren't even the slightest hints in the book's narrative to justify such a conclusion.

Okay folks, show's over, nothing to see here!

[–] jondoe888 11 years ago

Hero worship, a spoiled rich girl, an isolated region, with few successful male models. But the family contrasts were good, in this layered movie!

[–] davidjanuzbrown 9 years ago

I have seen this movie many times, and the issue with Pat was she was highly manipulative. Was she a murderer like Buck? No but she was highly capable of it. In her mind, no one was on the level of her father the Major (certainly not Steve or Jim). I think the scene that shows what she is really about was when Jim said he is going to share 'Big Muddy' water with the Hannassey's. She wanted someone she could control and thought that was Jim and realized he was not. She is a younger version of Vance Jeffords ( Barbara Stanwyck) in "The Furies.'Another Western where the female character had rotten father issues. Unlike Stanwyck, I do not see a happy conclusion for her, because she lost to Jim and Julie, the Major is dead ( and the men respected him), Rufus and Buck ( who were easy scapegoats) are dead, the Hannassey's are able to get water for the cattle ( and are thus not driven out), and I suspect Steve Will leave as well( especially knowing how lucky he was to escape with his life).Without question the worst character in the movie is Buck, but she runs second ( worse in my opinion then her father ( at least he was willing to face the Hannassey's alone). Of course, Jim was the winner getting rid of her, and ending up with the better woman ( inside and out) in Julie.

[–] catbookss 9 years ago

I have seen this movie many times, and the issue with Pat was she was highly manipulative.

As have I, and I agree Pat was very manipulative.

Was she a murderer like Buck? No but she was highly capable of it. In her mind, no one was on the level of her father the Major

I don't see where you see she was capable of murder as Buck was, although I agree that, to her, no one could compare to her father, to whom she looked up to as some kind of god.

My biggest problem with the film is why would Jim, a highly intelligent man, fall for Pat, who was so manipulative and unethical, to the point of wanting to marry and spend the rest of his life with her?

One could say she was somewhat different in Boston, before they returned to Texas and her family, but a man such as Jim should have been able to see through her before that. We were never shown any other side to Pat that would make Jim's decision to marry her make sense. Or for Julie to be close friends with her, for that matter, except for the fact that there were few people in the area of a like age for them to be friends with.

Without showing any other side to Pat, it made Jim look like a shallow man who had simply become besotted with a physically beautiful woman, and he was anything but shallow.

[–] davidjanuzbrown 9 years ago

The reason why Jim can fall for Pat is easy. He was a Sea Captain ( not a lot of time for long term relationships). Watch a movie called The Violent Men ( a movie I mentioned before with the same themes). Where you see Glenn Ford's John Parrish ( a character like Jim) is engaged to a woman named Caroline Vail ( who is greedy and manipulative like Pat). Interesting enough, he ends up up Judith Wilkison ( a nicer version of Pat, who has a father named Lee who is a slightly less evil version of Henry Terrill). Interestingly enough the most evil character is Lee's wife Martha( Barbara Stanwyck) who uses her brother in law Cole in a way I could see Pat doing to Steve if he sticks around ( which I would doubt).The big difference is Jim is lucky to end up with Julie instead of Pat or a woman like her.

[–] catbookss 9 years ago

The reason why Jim can fall for Pat is easy. He was a Sea Captain ( not a lot of time for long term relationships).

Thanks for replying.

This doesn't work for me as why Jim wouldn't recognize Pat's lack of character, however. As a sea captain, reading people's character would have been an important skill in choosing his crew, and spending lengthy amounts of time with them at sea, in the close quarters of a ship. While his crew would have been male, character is character, regardless of gender. We were shown over and over how Jim excelled at reading the character of everyone he encountered, and doing it quite quickly. This is one of the things I loved so much about him, and of course his integrity.

It just doesn't make sense to me that he'd have been completely blind to the character of the woman he was going to spend the rest of his life with, and presumably be the mother of his children.

I can buy that Pat changed to a degree once back in the environment where she was from, but we were never shown any good qualities to her that he would have seen and been so attracted to, he wanted to marry her. Similarly, with Pat being shown the way she was, I have a hard time believing Julie would have been close friends with such a spoiled and self-centered person. Both problems could have been avoided had Pat been better written, making her a three-dimensional person rather than the two-dimensional villain we were given.

I don't think it was just luck that Jim ended up with Julie, rather than Pat. He deliberately chose to break things off with Pat, once he realized the kind of person she really was, and instead chose Julie because she did have character and integrity.

It's interesting that the same man who wrote The Big Country also wrote The Violent Men (which I've not seen or even heard of), with similar characters and themes.

[–] davidjanuzbrown 9 years ago

If you have Encore Western you can see The Violent Men. It Has Glenn Ford, Barbara Stanwyck, Edward G Robinson and Brian Keith. Ford plays the Peck Role. Watch the movie and you will see what I mean.

[–] catbookss 9 years ago

Thanks again. I don't have Encore Western because I really don't like Westerns in general. The Big Country is an exception and is on my short list of all-time favorite films, primarily because I loved the Jim McCain character, and Peck in general.

One of my favorite parts about it was the midnight fight scene. I'd never before seen a fight scene so realistic, where the two opponents get tired as they fought. I loved the realism, but more than anything else I loved McCain. To me he was an realistic yet understated hero and all-around exemplary human being, and I think I fell in love with him (albeit a fictional character) the first time I saw the film.

If The Violent Men's main character, Glenn Ford, is anything like him, I'll probably enjoy it. I'll see if I can find it somewhere.

[–] davidjanuzbrown 9 years ago

"You don't want to get in a fight with me Mr. Wilkinson ( Edward G. Robinson), you will not like my way of fighting."(John Parrish as played by Glenn Ford). That is a line he said in ' The Violent Men.' like Jim McKay ( Gregory Peck) he wanted peace, but he got pushed too far. There is one scene where he stands up to Wade Matlock ( Richard Jaeckal) who is very much like Buck ( but worse), and guns him down in cold blood like Matlock did earlier in the movie.
He also stands up to Cole Wilkinson ( Brian Keith) who is also faster then he is ( like Jim did against Buck except he killed him)). Again Cole is worse then Buck ( leading a murderous posse against innocent people and killing them in their own homes (Even Henry Terrill never went to that degree against the Hannassey's))

[–] davidjanuzbrown 9 years ago

The Man who wrote The Big Country ( Donald Hamilton) also wrote The Violent Men (The movie I talked about before). There were a lot of interesting characters in thst movie that you can see in the 'Big Country.' The huge ranch, the Henry Terrill character This time named Lee Wilkison ( although slightly less evil), Jim McKay named John Parrish, and Cole Wilkinson named Steve Leech ( although Steve was not evil like Cole). Then you get to the women: Martha the wife of Lee ( absolute evil), Caroline Vail ( highly manipulative and greedy, she was engaged to Parrish), and daughter Judith ( who Parrish ends up with and idolized her father. ( although NOT to Pat"s level)). All use sex as a weapon, like Pat does. Martha is willing to kill to achieve her goal of controlling the valley ( like Terrill and water rights), and although Pat is not evil like Martha or Buck for that matter, you know she has it in her to become just like Martha ( as does Judith). Jim is lucky to end up with Julie who is a better character then Pat and even Judith. It also goes without saying Jean Simmons is better looking then Dianne Foster ( Judith) or Carol Baker.
The reason why Jim could become engaged to Pat is the same reason why Parrish became engaged to Caroline: The were away from women. Jim at Sea and Parrish at War. Easy for them to get their hooks in them. Once Jim and Parrish saw what they were on an everyday basis they dumped them. Interesting enough, it took until the end of the movie until they rode away with the women they chose.

[–] DarthBill 8 years ago

I had never considered the "emotional incest" theory but there was definitely something dysfunctional if not outrightly unhealthy about Major Terrill's relationship with his daughter.