werent a lot of the scenes way too long and dragged out, seemingly, to me, for no purpose? like the two guys washizu and miki wandering about in the fog for like two minutes and that pseudo funeral procession? was it to make the movie longer, because it seemed like there was not much depth.
overall i liked it, but the original shakespeare is way better, and ive seen better macbeth movies.
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what gorbo actually said was:
"please ban me and delete my account because i am an elitist *beep*
metalmind19
Oh, now it's about "me". Hmmm, you insult a great director, can't write at all, don't make sense then accuse everyone of being an elitist.
Stick with your dumb movies.
Crybaby.
"Without mercy, a man is not a human being." Sansho the Bailiff, 1954
Uh. Gorbo. Am I going to have to put you in the corner? "Crybaby?" Are we in grade school? I would think Kurosawa would be more insulted by someone who blindly accepts everything he does, rather than giving him the respect to look at his work critically.
metalmind19, I understand exactly how you feel. I felt the same way the first time I saw it, a few years ago.
I've developed a new understanding of Kurosawa's style recently, and am returning to his selection of movies, and now I realize that this movie is truly one of his best.
There is a great essay written by Stephen Prince included with the Criterion DVD, and in it he explains Kurosawa's use of the Japanese tradition of Noh drama. Rather than rely on the more verbal expression of Shakespeare's play, Kurosawa uses visuals to express the overwhelming dread of this story.
I have been noticing this style as being prevalent throughout all of his movies. Once you are able to appreciate this different (and for westerners like us, sometimes even alien) form of expression, you will see this film, as well as Kurosawa's other films, in a completely new light.
Having just watched this, I am still in awe at the power of it.
Those long, drawn out sequences- I noticed this time as well, but was moved by them. Without these scenes, the brooding atmosphere would not be the same- I often felt as though these scenes emphasized the inevitable tragedy and horror of the story. Remember, this film is very visual, and it's emotional cues are not necessarily in scenes of action or dialog.
mothboy88
So glad that you know what Kurosawa would think. Pretentious buffoons such as yourself really have no business enjoying great cinema because you think it was made for YOU. Reading your crap, I do have to chuckle though.
"Without mercy, a man is not a human being." Sansho the Bailiff, 1954
Gorbo, two days ago: "Stick with your dumb movies. (...) [Y]ou insult a great director, can't write at all, ..."
Gorbo, today: "Pretentious buffoons such as yourself ..."
Clown.
hbrethouwer
Not sure you have a point. Bozo.
"Without mercy, a man is not a human being." Sansho the Bailiff, 1954
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For those don't know, people like smaje1 blame all the problems on the world on others without ever looking at their own pathetic lives.
It's best to ignore immature people like smaje1.
"Without mercy, a man is not a human being." Sansho the Bailiff, 1954
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I've run into a lot of people like Gorbo on the internet. They enter into, or begin a topic with a bold claim, generally laced with condescension, and proceed to defend it based purely on the unrelated errors of the other posters (spelling/grammar) and wild speculation, maintaining an insulting disposition throughout.
They do this because the reaction is predictable as clockwork, and to them it is extremely rewarding. You all have given the classic reactions, the ones Gorbo and those like him crave: you became indignant, insulted back, attempted (in vain) to engage in reasonable discourse, asked him to be polite, said 'go away,' etc...
I have a friend who does this all the time. He will argue with everything you say in a given thread, no matter what you say, and find great joy in the fact that he made you say anything at all.
My friend was adopted, and I think that's the reason he does stuff like this. It's as if some deep-seated feeling that he isn't good enough drives him to view every scenario as an argument; an opportunity to prove his worth. He says he just finds it funny, but I think deep down feigning intellectual superiority over strangers makes him feel special. It's really pretty sad because he has a lot going for him but alienates everybody he knows with constant hairsplitting and mindless arguments.
He, however, proof reads his own posts before berating the grammar and intelligence of others'.
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You weren't very polite yourself to someone else on this board who simply asked you if the film was worth seeing.
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COMPLETELY agree. I will never understand why dinks like that try to watch real movies.
shareNo, you're right. The "wandering" scene was ridiculously long.
I'm a big Kurosawa fan. But some of his films (e.g. 'The Idiot') are agonizingly slow-to the point where it's painful to watch.
That being said, this isn't just Shakespeare-it also incorporates aspects of Japanese Noh Theatre, which does not move at a brisk pace.
Kurosawa is a very "western" Japanese director-he embraces western music and literature. I wish I was better able to pay attention to those aspects of his films that rely on traditional Japense methods of storytelling. Unfortunately, no matter how hard I try, I usually find myself bored to tears when he uses these. This is not the fault of the director (at least, not usually-some scenes can certainly be truncated). I recognize that it's my ignorance of Japanese culture and narrative. But that doesn't change the fact that I find parts of certain Kurosawa films tedious.
"I'm not living, I'm just killing time"
Mista Yorke
the are "dragged out" as you say to show the contrast between the action and these moments, which usually follow each other. the fast and thrilling vs the slow and often sombre, which is the whole tone of the film. the fog scene is almost a comment on time and space, and how distorted it is by the general undercurrent of the unnatuaral in the macbeth plot.
now can you kids stop arguing?
I also thought some scenes were excessively long, though I did appreciate the explanations for them. I think I also had an inferior video copy of the movie to work with.
shareYou guys need to learn how to ignore trolls O.o
I didn't mind the long takes, I believe it was just the style of Kurosawa, and many Japanese directors to this day.
And now, the end is near, and so I face, the final curtain
lol...
Gorbo= searching the internet for nude pics of Ann Margaret.
Brian, there's a message in my AlphaBits. It says "OOOOOO".
Peter, those are Cheerios.
You know what my problem with this movie was? I think that a lot of interesting stuff happens off-screen. Am I the only one who wanted to see how Washizu killed lord Tzuzuki, the death of Miki and his son's escape? If Kurosawa had filmed those scenes and stretched this movie a little longer "Throne of Blood" would have been a total masterpiece. Now it's just a darn good movie...
shareThe point however was not how they got killed, but rather that they were killed. Kurosawa's emphasis was on the end result rather than on the how. In truth, showing "the how" would have actually added very little to the narrative. Kurosawa was a smart enough director to realize you don't need to show everything for the sake of showing everything!
shareI understand what you're saying, but Kurosawa filmed all mayor death scenes in "Seven Samurai", "Yojimbo" or "Ran" if I remember correctly. So I see no reason why he couldn't do it here.
shareBut the narrative was different in SEVEN S.AMURAI and YOJIMBO. Yes, in those films we saw the deaths and even expected to see some. But we didn't know who exactly was going to die, thus building up a little tension in the storyline as well as advancing it. With THRONE OF BLOOD, we know that both Lord Tsuzuki and Miki, were going to get killed, and showing how, would not have really furthered along the narrative. The audience knew they were going to be history, thus Kurosawa's emphasis was on the end result rather than the how.
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You have to learn about cinema, art, etc. You don't know nothing. Kurosawa was an amazing director.
shareOP: I kinda felt similarly. The scenes with the evil spirit, Washizu's wife and the final arrows scene were spectacular, but for too long this film did feel unnecessarily drawn out. I much prefer his adaptation of King Lear, namely Ran. I think he handles the source material with more maturity and is more comfortable in imposing his own style on the piece in that film.
See no sig, hear no sig
The thought has been that this was an adaptation, and therefore it should be compared and contrasted to other adaptations. But in reality, THRONE OF BLOOD was more so inspired by the Macbeth story. That is how one should really view this. Similar in vein to WEST SIDE STORY as that had its inspiration from the Romeo and Juliet story, but was never a full adaptation.
The getting lost in the fog scenes I thought served its meaningful purpose, symbolically showing us that these two warriors were now trapped in this scenario with difficulty getting out of it. I recall seeing a similarly-inspired lost fog scene in another ghost story, THE OTHERS with Nichole Kidman, and it was the same situation for her character.
For one thing, it´s obviously difficult to convey a sense of being lost in the fog with only a few fuzzy shots of it. Here, it became a haunting, existential ordeal. All of it quite impeccably paced.
"facts are stupid things" - Ronald Reagan
Hey metalmind, instead of being a jerk, like, Gorbo, I'd rather educate than insult. So here's the deal that you might not have clued into with this movie. And why it is considered one of the finest films of all time.
Throne of Blood is one of Kurosawa's most formalist films and it's a perfect circle broken into four acts of "quantum experience".
First the circle. Everything happens twice. We start at Spider's Web Castle and we end at Spider's Web Castle. The second segment is of Washizu lost in the woods in the rain and finding the spirit. The second to the last segment is Washizu returning to the woods to find the spirit again, in the rain. And so on. This is why the spirit is working on a circular loom, and sings a circular song (and why Asaji
performs a circular dance in front of the blood stain in the forbidden room - more on that later). The murder of the Warlord occurs as deep into the film as the murder of Miki does towards the end of the film. The ceremony that promotes Washizu is as far from the beginning of the film as the ceremony that celebrates Miki (where his ghost appears) is from the end. And, of course, revolts by younger men both get the movie started and end it. As do the same striking image of Washizu's tomb. The whole film is like this, a perfect circle. By being a circle it formally explores the circular violence of history. Man kills man for power throughout the arch of civilization.
The film is also an experiment in time. The movie is framed with a prelude and postlude, and 4 acts in between. Each act has three seconds of empty black screen between it. And each act is a temporal
moment segregated by unmarked time. All acts are segregated by night and day. It goes like this...
PRELUDE: After the credits, the movie opens with a chanted hymn, about the desolation of Spider Web Castle. Now long since destroyed, we see Washizu grave site. But the violent circle of men has not stopped. It is a callback to the opening chorus of a traditional Noh play (more on
that later). Then Spider Web Castle appears out of the mist of time. This exact sequence is reversed at the end of the movie (a perfect circle).
ACT I - RISE OF WASHIZU: DAY - Rebellion and news of Washizu's victory. Washizu and Miki lost in the Spider Woods where they meet the spirit. NIGHT - the Great Lord rewards Washizu and Miki with
promotions.
ACT II - MURDER OF THE GREAT LORD: DAY - All is well. This is the only time the sun is shining in the film and the only time when the horses are happy. NIGHT - The Great Lord is killed. DAY - Washizu chases Noriyasu and the Prince to the gates of Spider Web Castle, now overseen by Miki. Washizu is admitted, bearing the coffin of the Great Lord.
ACT III - MURDER OF MIKI: Day - wind and fog. Miki's horse wildly raging. NIGHT - a formal dinner. Another ceremony, repeating the honor Washizu and Miki of were given by the Great Lord, circles. Washizu sees Miki's ghost.
ACT IV - FALL OF WASHIZU: DAY - Wind shakes the foundations of Spider Web Castle. Washizu rides off in the rain to consult the witch; this time he doesn't get lost in the Spider Web Labyrinth of the forest at
all. Since he was lost in the fog in the first act, he has been metaphorically intimate with the secret paths of the Spider Web Forest. NIGHT - Defenders of Spider Web Castle hear the attackers chopping down trees. The homeless birds swarm into Washizu's council room. The Forest is coming for him. DAY - The forest advances on Spider Web Castle. Washizu is murdered from inside the heart of his
own fortress. His own heart has destroyed him.
POSTLUDE: the Prelude is reversed. The castle fades into the mist of time. We see the tomb. The chanting Noh theater hymn from the beginning begins again. The circle is complete. But only so it may
start over, the hymn tells us.
Cool, right!? But wait! There's more!
The film is also Kurosawa's direct nod to the Noh theater of ancient Japan that informed every motion the actors made. Each actor had to study with great Noh actors to loose the naturalism in their performances. But it gets even better!
In all Noh theater the stage must be set with three pine branches and a symbolic Shinto temple-arch. In the film, shots are carefully composed to include tangles of branches in the foreground (also
because they're in Spider Web Forest!) and the vast entrance gate of Washizu's fortress serves for the temple arch.
A Noh play features a "doer" and a "companion" who plays a subordinate role. Washizu and Asaji are the doer and companion respectively. Elements in the Noh include a battle-drama and a so-called "wig
drama", in which a female character dominates the action. This is the central portion of the film, in the quiet of the fortress quarters, when Asaji ruthlessly manipulates her husband's ambition. Every Noh
play has a ghost which appears to the *beep* and the spirit in the forest fulfills that function. Noh plays are never original works, in that they are re-workings of ancient legends. Kurosawa follows
tradition by taking his tale from Shakespeare.
There is no Western term to describe the stylized striking of poses so important in Noh. Dance is a crude word which approximates it, but does not convey it. Throughout the film the actors move with similar procession to Noh actors. One particularly affecting example is when Asaji is alone with the blood-stain in the forbidden room. The little circular movement she makes, that we both commented on, is a direct piece of Noh performance... and also explores the repeated circular motif that betrays the structure of the film itself.
Just wanted to share all that cool stuff with you! So that maybe you could look at it as a work of art, instead of a "movie" where you complain about the pacing.
I agree that the part after seeing the witch was too long but that's the only part of the film that felt wrong. Otherwise, having watched several productions of Macbeth in theatre and on film, I thought it was a rather excellent version and one of the best.
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