MovieChat Forums > 12 Angry Men (1957) Discussion > By this film's reasoning no one would be...

By this film's reasoning no one would be found guilty. (Re-posting)


Recall the scene where Fonda's character starts to create added reasons for the defendant (arguing his defense attorney was not too good) and one of the other jurors tried to extend on the prosecution's response. Fonda said you can't do that.

Well, if a jury goes in and tries to make the case for the defense and don't also play devil's advocate for the D.A. as well, no one would ever be convicted.

Thoughts?

(They deleted my post so I can't let them get away with so here we go again.) 😁

"It's the system, Lara. People will be different after the Revolution."

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They should't make a case for the defense or the prosecution. The jury should weigh the evidence, discuss the evidence that was presented and entered into evidence, discuss the testimony and determine if there was reasonable doubt or not. They shouldn't pretend to be a defense attorney and do the defense's job - as they shouldn't try to be a prosecutor. It's a fairly simple process that has rules for very good reasons - rules that this jury broke.

So more to your point - a jury shouldn't "make" a case for either side. The evidence will determine which sides case it's going to made.

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...except if you're a filmmaker with an agenda, then you have a 'jury' do whatever you need to make *your* case about letting bad guys off the hook

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You sound like a fascist that wants to kill everybody...

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Prepare to be judged....with a FGM-148 Javelin!

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How do you equate his post to fascism?

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good question

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They should't make a case for the defense or the prosecution. The jury should weigh the evidence, discuss the evidence that was presented and entered into evidence, discuss the testimony and determine if there was reasonable doubt or not.

I thought there was usually a jury instruction given by the judge (and these are mutually agreed upon by lawyers on both sides, but this one's standard), stating something to that effect, that the jury should only take into account testimony and evidence ("officially") presented, not testimony ordered stricken from the record, and nothing they hear from outside sources...I don't recall that jury instructions were shown in this film or not, possibly on purpose, since the filmmakers were going to have the jurors advocate like that

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Yes there are instructions for the jury - which I have listed on other posts and they specifically instruct the jurors to only use evidence admitted in court or testified about. The man's walk to the stand and the lady's marks on the nose would be out of their scope - as well as Klugman acting as an expert. Of course the obvious misconduct would be the knife and the investigation into the knife.

This is it in case anyone interested so they don't have to find it - long but interesting an on point with the movie:

Straight from NYS courts:
Evidence
When you judge the facts you are to consider only the evidence.
The evidence in the case includes:
the testimony of the witnesses,
the exhibits that were received in evidence, [and]
[the stipulation(s) by the parties. (A stipulation is information
the parties agree to present to the jury as evidence, without calling
a witness to testify.)]
Testimony which was stricken from the record or to which an
objection was sustained must be disregarded by you.
Exhibits that were received in evidence are available, upon
your request, for your inspection and consideration.
Exhibits that were just seen during the trial, or marked for
identification but not received in evidence, are not evidence, and
are thus not available for your inspection and consideration.
But, testimony based on exhibits that were not received in
evidence may be considered by you. It is just that the exhibit itself
is not available for your inspection and consideration.

This from NYS courts explains expertise and ordinary knowledge:

JUROR EXPERTISE
In evaluating the evidence and the issues presented, you
should use your common sense, knowledge, and experience, just
as you would in making decisions in your daily life. When I speak
of “knowledge” and “experience” in this context, I mean the sort of
knowledge and experience that an average person would acquire
in life.
Some of you, however, may have something more than
ordinary knowledge or experience in a certain area. Indeed, it may
be that you have developed a special expertise in a certain area,
well beyond what an average person would have.
If you have such a special expertise, and if it relates to some
material issue in this case, it would be wrong for you to rely on that
special expertise to inject into your deliberations either a fact that
is not in evidence or inferable from the evidence, or an opinion that
could not be drawn from the evidence by a person without that
special expertise. The reason it would be wrong to do so is that
you must decide this case only on the evidence presented to you
in this courtroom.
Therefore, with respect to any material issue in this case, you
must not use any special expertise you have to insert into the
deliberations evidence that has not been presented in this
courtroom during the trial.




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This should have been a mistrial.

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But under the US legal system, an acquittal can not be appealed, although a conviction can be overturned.

What do people think about that? Does it bias the system too much in favor of the defendant?

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It does bias towards the defendant - no doubt - but that isn't a bad thing. You wouldn't want the prosecution to keep trying to convict every time they fail. The prosecution should get a fair shot (unlike with this jury) and make their case - and if they can't convict - they defendant goes home never to be tried (for that crime ) again. There are many other rules/laws that favor the defendant - but that is how the system works - it tries it best to not convict the innocent. It's not a perfect system.

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Delusional, hope you are never ever a juror, you are plain crazy.

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It was pretty clear that Fonda's character himself was hesitant but the only reason he ardently defended the boy was because the other 11 men were prejudiced to the other extreme.

Had the others been initially sensible, Fonda's character would have been more skeptical within a rational discussion.

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