Are Daniel and Ephraim twins ?
Are Daniel and Ephraim nonidentical twins because most of time they are shown together.
shareIf they'd been twins (whether identical or fraternal), their mother would have noted their "twin" status by giving both of them Biblical names beginning with the letter "D" - Daniel and David, for example.
I don't see any real evidence that they're twins.
Not necessarilly - Even with twins, one is older than the other - You get the impression they are twins, because they are almost always together, do the same things at the same time and speak for each other, as twins often do. When Milly asks: Who is Daniel and who is Ephraim, they both at the same time say "Me". So I think they are twins, Daniel the older twin and Ephraim the younger.
shareThat makes sense. It never even occurred to me that they were, but now watching it with that in mind it totally makes sense!
Not necessarilly - Even with twins, one is older than the other.
I never said twins had to be born at the same second - where did you get that? Read my post again - all I said was that if they were any kind of twins, their mother would have noted this by giving both of them names beginning with the letter "D" (and certainly a director as smart as Stanley Donen would have made sure there was crystal clear evidence they were twins). So, where in the script does it specifically state that Daniel and Ephraim are twins? There are many brothers who are always together & finish each other's sentences, but that doesn't mean they're twins - often it's simply a case of being close & on the same wavelength. As far as the film in concerned, sometimes we see them paired off with each other, but they're not always together - they're not Tweedledum and Tweedledee. Just as often we see one or the other paired off with another brother, or with Millie, or with (respectively) Martha or Liza.
And we should also consider the fact that Marc Platt (Daniel) and Jacques d'Amboise (Ephraim), besides the studio-approved red hair, don't look anything like fraternal or identical twins.
Daniel -
http://www.classicmoviemusicals.com/actorsd.htm#doggett
Ephraim -
http://www.classicmoviemusicals.com/actorsd.htm#damboise
If you think they look like twins, fine. But I'm sure if the filmmakers wanted to indicate they were twins, they would have alluded to it in the script - not to mention hiring two actor-dancers who actually resembled each other. share
"if they were any kind of twins, their mother would have noted this by giving both of them names beginning with the letter "D"
Where did you get that gem? Were you friends with his mom? That doesn't make sense, if I was his mom I would name the older one with the letter D and the younger with the letter E. If she had any hope of making it all the way to Z I think that would have been the thing to do.
"besides the studio-approved red hair, don't look anything like fraternal or identical twins."
And how exactly do "fraternal twins" look? If they were believable as brothers who were fairly close in age, then they're believable as fraternal twins. That's what fraternal twins are. They have no more similar genetic make-up than any two brothers, so the fact that they "dont' look anything like fraternal twins" is the same as saying they "don't look anything like brothers". This may be true, but your point is moot as if they're supposed to be brothers in the movie they very well could be twins.
I don't necessarily think they're twins, but your insistence that they aren't just because their names and lack of physical similarities doesn't hold any water whatsoever.
"Weirdness was all he cared about. Weirdness and sex and plenty to drink."
Where did you get that gem? Were you friends with his mom?
I'm talking about storytelling devices that were used in films and television programs during the 50s and 60s. Twins were often given names that either began with the same letter (like Sharon and Susan in The Parent Trap), or "sound alike" names (like Teensy and Weensy in I Love Lucy).
If they were believable as brothers who were fairly close in age, then they're believable as fraternal twins.
But that's my point - they're not believable as brothers, which means they're not believable as twins of either type. If they were fraternal twins, they'd at least look like brothers. But as I pointed out before, Marc Platt and Jacques d'Amboise look nothing alike (apart from the studio-approved red hair).
In Seven Brides For Seven Brothers, we're talking about two brothers who don't have a name similarity, don't look like twins, and aren't identified as twins. And that's why I can't understand this assumtion that they are twins.
This isn't anything to get excited about. I'm simply saying (as I said before) that if the filmmakers wanted to indicate Daniel and Ephraim were twins, they would have alluded to it in the script - not to mention hiring two actor-dancers who actually resembled each other. share
To your "sound alike" names point, it makes sense, but you seem to be ignoring the rules (explicitly established in the movie) about alphabetically arranged names from the Bible. I don't think it's a stretch to assume that these completely non-binding storytelling devices would be ignored for the much more important naming rules set up specifically in Seven Brides.
And all I was saying about them being "believeable" as brothers was that if they're supposed to be brothers in the movie, they could just as easily be fraternal twins. Fraternal twins have no better chance of looking alike than any two brothers, so since they're "believable as brothers" from the standard of casting, they're de facto just as believable as fraternal twins.
I agree that it would make more sense if the filmmakers called out that they were twins. But I don't think it's appropriate to have a hardline stance against the suggestion. They very well could be. You don't know anymore than I do whether the actors/writer/director/etc thought personally that they might be twins.
So, while your theory is that there's no definitive evidence in the movie, as mentioned before there are a few facts that imply it may have been true When there's 14 relatively major character it's unlikely they'd get into all the details (whether they are twins or not has virtually no bearing on the movie). Maybe the filmmakers way of "showing" that they are twins was having them speak at the same time and being together often.
"Weirdness was all he cared about. Weirdness and sex and plenty to drink."
To your "sound alike" names point, it makes sense, but you seem to be ignoring the rules (explicitly established in the movie) about alphabetically arranged names from the Bible.
But that's a point I made in my first post. For twins, filmmakers in the 50s and 60s either used names that began with the same letter, or "sound-alike" names. In the specific case of Seven Brides For Seven Brothers, "sound-alike" names wouldn't have worked - which is why, if the filmmakers wanted to get across that two of the brothers were twins, they'd have used a pair of names that began with the same letter (i.e., Daniel and David).
Of course, there have been films about twins in which the names are neither "sound-alikes" nor do they begin with the same letter, but these are films that have clearly identified the siblings as twins - which isn't the case in Seven Brides For Seven Brothers.
Maybe the filmmakers way of "showing" that they are twins was having them speak at the same time and being together often.
This is something else I've already addressed - if you watch the film closely, you'll notice they're not always together; they're not Tweedledum and Tweedledee. And they only speak at the same time once, which could just as easily indicate (in view of Milly's question) they're both "me-centric" guys who don't know how to express themselves effectively.
Stanley Donen was a smart filmmaker who always made things clear. And Albert Hackett, Frances Goodrich and Dorothy Kingsley were all experienced screenwriters who knew their way around a script. If Daniel and Ephraim had been twins, the filmmakers would have presented conclusive evidence of this (not to mention hiring two actors who actually resembled each other).
Once again, it's perfectly all right to speculate endlessly about the characters presented in this film - one could make guesses about which of the brothers is a wife beater, an alcoholic or a possible bisexual. But without conclusive evidence from the film itself, claims like these are never going to be anything more than idle speculation. share