MovieChat Forums > Secret of the Incas (1954) Discussion > Harry + Mrs. Winston + Miss Morris

Harry + Mrs. Winston + Miss Morris


I don't quite know how to put this delicately.... Oh okay, I got it. Did Harry Steele boink Miss Morris and Mrs. Winston?

No, I mean, yeah, we all know they both wanted him to do it. All right, maybe Miss Morris was too superficially prim and proper to have actually let Harry slip between the sheets, or at least she told herself she was, but, woozy under the influence of the bright stars, high altitude and large peaks on offer, I'm sure l'amour and le sexe followed in rapid succession, minus the first part. She seemed a little be-dazed but definitely be-satisfied as Harry hurried them along in the tram, shoving one load of jackasses out of the way to get the other one to the airport, and was most reluctant to take her leave of him when the time came for him to dump her. Was the money she handed him a tip of gratitude or gratitude for the tip? Was the cash her deposit to Harry's financial bank in exchange for her withdrawal from Harry's sperm bank? Nine months from now, when she's back in Philadelphia or whatever straight-laced place she comes from and gets rushed to the maternity ward to give birth to a broad-shouldered babe sporting a two-day stubble, will she name him Harry, Jr. and then "float down to Peru/in llama-land there's a one-man band/and he'll toot his flute for you", as if she hadn't already tooted enough flutes on her last visit?

As for Mrs. W., we all know what she's about, but was Harry so strapped for dough that he'd strap on something else and jump in the ol' sack with the ol' bag? And in this case I also wonder about the time element. Did Harry even have the opportunity to get something started with her in the time the Winstons had been in residence? I ask because she makes that crack about his "changing horses in midstream" when he espies Elena skulking in el muséo, and he keeps throwing his intentions to see another woman in old Mrs. W's face. That certainly sounds as though he'd gotten down to making a tour of his own with some dispatch -- you know, old slow 'n' easy Harry -- before making an early retreat.

Anyway, I have a hard time envisioning even a cash-starved Harry going out of his way to give a love-starved matron like Mrs. Winston a trip to remember. Even as a young woman Glenda Farrell wasn't really attractive, and the years weren't kind to her...though they were certainly kinder to her than her nephew the director. Somehow I can't quite see her bedding a man young enough to be her son, and looking young enough to be her grandson, all under the expectant eye of Jerry Hopper.

On the other hand, Miss Morris clearly has potential. There's a lot lurking under that Lois-Lane get-up to tempt any real man of Steele, and he won't need X-ray vision to get to see it if he plays his cards right. It's always the quiet ones who turn into tigresses, no? Or so might a Machu man like Harry conclude. Miss Norris is a keeper...even though she did turn out to be Richie Cunningham's mom.

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Hey hob ... I don't know how the hell you do it .... but your recent posts have made me realize how much of the underlying plot I have been missing out on when watching SOTI. And I have seen it dozens of times. Another marvellous post, worthy of being included in a magazine article, full of humour and flashes of brilliance.

I don't agree with your harsh opinion of Glenda Farrell's looks though. I certainly wouldn't refuse a rumble in the jungle with that middle-aged slapper.

"The internet is for lonely people. People should live." Charlton Heston

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Yeah, you and James seem to have a thing about Glenda Farrell. Sorry, her allure completely eludes me. I certainly have no problem with "older women" but she never appealed to me at all, even as a "younger woman". Not the least bit attractive. Lumpy and craggy.

The complexities of the Harry Steele-Mrs. Winston pas-de-deux may underlay the plot, but I'm under the impression that the abrupt aloofness of her tour guide is the only under-laying she's complained about.

But as always your comments on my commentary are most appreciated. It is fun exploring new facets of old stand-bys, so if one of my posts helps bring a little joy into your humdrum lives, it makes me feel as though my hard work ain't been in vain for nuthin'. Bless you!

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I can't believe you don't find Glenda Farrell attractive in her early movies - the fugitive on a chain gang one when she ruined Paul Muni's life - she was a sexy young piece in that, for sure, hob! Just look at some photos of her when she was starting out, how can you not be turned on by those pouting lips and sensuous eyes?

"The internet is for lonely people. People should live." Charlton Heston

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Pouting? Sensuous? All I see is a squinty, jowly, bagged-out, hagged-out, dried-out, bleached-blond, wilted stinkweed of lumpiness. Like a sack of Yukon Gold potatoes, or Prince Edwards to use a variety you know, only without the fashion sense. Loud and brassy too, like watching The Music Man but without the music, man or actual trombones.

Before my last post I actually did go and look at several photos of her from her younger days, and they only re-confirmed me in my keen observations. Her face looks like someone stretched a sheet of plastic wrap across it in an effort to suffocate her, got interrupted and had to flee, but it never sprung back.

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I am amazed at your description of Glenda Farrell hob. Utterly amazed!

"The internet is for lonely people. People should live." Charlton Heston

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Why, thank you, Os. I accept your apology!

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Was Glenda Farrell a Republican by any chance?

http://www.secretoftheincas.co.ukhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhSPcAyCgwE

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Ha-ha-ha! I have no idea, but considering she was born in Texas in 1904 she almost certainly at least started out as a Democrat.

No offense, I'm sure GF was a lovely person, but I never found her the least bit attractive or (a very different thing) sexy. As you may have surmised. And, for your sake, I tried!

I don't let politics affect my appreciation of talent or looks or even my favorites. For example, I think Bo Derek is (or was) gorgeous, and she's an active, ardent Republican. Many others besides. And there are many good actors or beautiful women who are staunch Democrats but whom I can't stand!

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I like the look of Sarah Palin, and she was right about Putin and Ukraine, wasn't she?

"The internet is for lonely people. People should live." Charlton Heston

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You really want to get even, don't you?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

When SP ran for VP, a British tabloid published a photo of my (then future) sister-in-law, taken when she was speaking at a Labour Party or some public affairs conference, claiming she looked just like Sarah Palin. I even saw the photo on line over here. From the angle in which it was shot, she did indeed look a lot like her. But actually the resemblance isn't as great as it appeared (some, but modest), and Vanessa is beautiful, whereas Sarah is more Plain than Palin...or, certainly, Putin.

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Whats your sister-in-law called hob? I want to see what she looks like!

"The internet is for lonely people. People should live." Charlton Heston

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Oh, I gave you her first name, Os, and that without permission, so I'd better hold off on further details. Tall and blond, very good figure, for what it's worth. Several years younger than Sarah. Very smart too. All the things Sarah isn't.

Oddly, minutes after I posted that message I saw a snippet of Sarah (the only way to abide her) on TV, declaiming her foreign policy bona fides, without much success in terms of grammar, focus or, indeed, knowledge. She suddenly looks really bad -- very drawn and bony, and sporting a weird, stringy hairdo. I once thought her mildly attractive but she's really lost it, and she's only about to turn 50 -- hardly over the hill. Plus that shrill, ungodly, nails-on-the-blackboard screech!! (Vanessa's voice is low and sultry and quite pleasantly enticing. Another strike on Sarah.)

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What's Sarah Palin up to now, hob? Who are the likely candidates to contest the next Presidential election? Is Hilary in the running?

"The internet is for lonely people. People should live." Charlton Heston

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Sarah seems washed up in terms of ever winning office herself again. As a raging narcissist she can't abide not being heard from, so she tweets and goes on Facebook incessantly and gets lots of uncritical air time for her inarticulate babblings on Fox News.

That aside, Palin's approval ratings in Alaska -- a very Republican state -- have bottomed out at around 30%. A few months ago she suddenly piped up about getting into the upcoming race for a United States Senate seat in the state this year, saying she was thinking of running even though four other Republicans had already entered, including the unqualified bozo she had supported for the other Senate seat in 2010. (He beat the Republican incumbent Palin hated in the party primary that year, but then lost to that incumbent, Lisa Murkowski, in the general election when she ran and won as a write-in, something that had happened only once before in American history -- widely seen in Alaska as a rebuke to Palin.) Polls this time showed her losing the party primary and running worst of all the Republicans against the incumbent Democrat (losing by about 15 points), and after a few weeks she just let the subject drop. No one in Alaska believed she'd run anyway. A lot of far-right Republicans still like her and she can always get applause from a narrow segment of the party, but even they've long since moved on in terms of favorite candidates, realizing she can't win. Certainly as a national candidate she's long since dead.

Yes, Hillary seems almost certain to run in 2016. She leads Vice President Biden by over 50 points for the Democratic nomination. A few Democrats are talking about running but none of them has a chance if she runs. (There is no 2016 version of Barack Obama to beat her.)

As to the Republicans, there is no front-runner, no one who's a clear favorite, which is highly unusual. In the general election, for many months Hillary's held leads ranging from 9 to 22 points against every possible Republican candidate: Representative Paul Ryan of Wisconsin (Romney's running mate); Senators Rand Paul (Kentucky), Marco Rubio (Florida), Ted Cruz (Texas); Governors or ex-Governors Mike Huckabee (Arkansas), Gov. Chris Christie (New Jersey, he of the recent bridge scandal, which has sent his approval ratings crashing and killed him off nationally), Bobbie Jindal (Louisiana), Scott Walker (Wisconsin), Rick Perry (Texas), and even Jeb Bush (Florida), who to my surprise trails Hillary by over 20 points -- I thought he'd be much closer, but every poll shows him one of the weakest candidates.

There are a few other names occasionally mentioned but as of now, even with Obama's low approval ratings Hillary is miles ahead of everybody. In fact, she looks so obvious I'm convinced it won't happen -- it just looks so likely at this point, it almost seems as if we're bound to have a different scenario unfold. But the Republicans are clearly panicking. The latest smear effort by Fox News is that in 2016 she'll be "too old" to be President -- 69. Of course, they don't mention that their plaster god, Saint Ronnie of Reagan, was also 69 when he won in 1980...a few months older than Hillary will be, in fact. That shows how desperate and pathetic her opponents are.

Trivia: if Obama serves out his term (i.e., if no one shoots him), and Hillary succeeds him, it'll be the first time in 160 years that one Democrat was elected to succeed another elected Democrat (instead of having a Vice President succeed a dead President, like JFK/LBJ). Last time was in 1856, when James Buchanan was elected to succeed Franklin Pierce, both considered among the very worst presidents in American history! I'm sure Sarah Palin would claim the same for an Obama/Clinton succession. Sarah is so brilliant. She recently said she wanted to visit both Great Britain and the United Kingdom during a stopover on her way to England to see President Cameron and Vice President Windsor.

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This may seem a weird question hob ... but American politicians aren't being shot much nowadays ... years ago there seemed to be a spate of assassinations and shootings. So, how come?

"The internet is for lonely people. People should live." Charlton Heston

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Os, first, I have to apologize to you, because you know that if you ask me something political I go off an a gabby jag. I will try to restrain myself, old friend!

Funny, years ago someone from Britain asked me why we shoot all our politicians. I got a little resentful and replied, "Not every one, we do let some serve out their terms." The 60s and 70s weren't good times for pols (in Europe too -- look at the wave of kidnappings and murders in places like Germany and Italy in the 70s, and all the attempts to kill de Gaulle in the 60s.) That's when the major assassinations -- both Kennedys, Martin Luther King -- occurred here.

Of course, we've had assassination attempts since the 60s: Ford (twice), Reagan, Gov. George Wallace in 1972. Frankly I'm surprised some Tea Partier hasn't taken a shot at Obama. You really do not know the extent of violent anti-Obama rhetoric there is on the right, from some politicians as well as extremist radio talk show hosts, Fox News commentators and the rest. There's a huge amount of outright hate out there. My wife is really appalled at what she sees and hears from certain quarters over here.

But I think assassination is something seen more in the past, everywhere. There was the wave of anarchist killings in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, which claimed one President, William McKinley, in 1901. We have had some notable assassinations, such as of Louisiana Senator Huey Long in 1935 and San Francisco Mayor George Moscone and City Councilman Harvey Milk in 1979. But such things really are pretty rare, and in both those cases motivated by personal grudges. Considering the availability of guns over here and the large number of nuts in a nation of 310 million people, it's surprising we don't have more.

Most of our actual or would-be assassins were lunatics. Some claimed "political" motives, but most of these were simply the delusional mutterings of deranged individuals rather than coherent political acts. This is in contrast to most assassinations in Europe, Asia, Africa or Latin America, which do tend to be mostly motivated by political causes, though the occasional insane killer does emerge.

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There was a shooting just three years ago wasn't there. A female senator was shot point blank in the face, but mercifully recovered.

http://www.secretoftheincas.co.ukhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhSPcAyCgwE

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No, that was a woman US Representative (not Senator), Gabby Giffords of Arizona, a Democrat. She was one of I believe nine people shot by a deranged psychotic while she was chatting with a group of constituents outside one of her district offices in Tuscon. She was shot in the head (but not face) but the surgeons manged to save her, though her speech and mobility were impaired, she lost the sight in one eye, and she eventually resigned from Congress because she couldn't sustain the work load. With her husband (who is an astronaut; he flew the Shuttle), she now campaigns for tougher gun laws -- good luck.

I forget how many people that guy did kill -- nine might have been just his kill total, and he may have shot more, I just don't remember the numbers. But he killed several people as well as wounding others. (It was one of Giffords's aides who risked his life to grab the gun away from the guy so he could be subdued, and this man was wounded in the process, though not seriously.) One of the people he killed was a nine-year-old girl who had come to see her Congresswoman, who was a hero to her. Arizona is a death-penalty state and I think he should have been sentenced to death, but he was a long-diagnosed paranoid psychotic who was genuinely insane, so they put him away for life instead. Although he seems to have targeted Giffords because she was a House member, this seemed less an assassination attempt as such (and certainly not motivated by actual political reasons) than as an effort to cause as much carnage as possible, though like most crazy people in such circumstances I believe he muttered some disjointed and delusional political ravings. But insanity lay behind the attack, which as I said is usually the case over here. Crazy people and guns. Make you feel better?

Last fall there was a State Senator (not US Senator) in Virginia who was attacked and repeatedly stabbed by his son, but he recovered. But that wasn't an assassination attempt, rather a case of a bipolar young man with a long history of disturbed behavior who went berserk and assaulted his father.

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Is that guy Brady still alive, whom Hinckley shot when he tried to assassinate Reagan?

"The internet is for lonely people. People should live." Charlton Heston

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Yes, Jim Brady is still alive, still working for gun control, still without much success.

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The poor sod, Hinckley should have fried for what he did that day.

"The internet is for lonely people. People should live." Charlton Heston

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I don't disagree, though luckily he didn't kill anybody. Can't believe they let him out on "supervised" releases a few years back. He's still an obsessive nut job, though he may be disillusioned now that Jodie Foster has come out. You'd think he'd at least have had the decency to hang himself in his cell.

That guy who shot Gabriel Giffords in Arizona should have been fried, crazy or not.

I'm in favor of the death penalty in certain instances. People tend to make two basic arguments against it:

(1) It's inhumane. So it is; and so what? That's sort of the point.

(2) It's not a deterrent. I agree; and again, so what? It's called capital punishment, not capital deterrent. If it occasionally deters someone from killing, all to the good, but it's a punishment, pure and simple. Life imprisonment isn't a deterrent, and neither is any other penalty, so the punishment should fit the crime.

Sorry to appear as just another bloodthristy American idiot.

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Oh boy, I'm with you all the way hob. I would love to see those evil monsters get their just desserts with Old Sparky. I wish it was on live tv as well, even pay for view!

"The internet is for lonely people. People should live." Charlton Heston

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I don't want a sadistic execution, but I do think some crimes merit the forfeiture of one's life. We used to have public hangings in this country, and I know that you had public executions in the UK way back, as did France, Germany and just about everybody else. We began getting civilized when we moved it indoors, and that's fine with me, but now it's deemed "civilized" to announce with all moral assurance that it's cruel and inhuman and a violation of human rights.

Though frankly I dislike the yahoos who gather outside prisons where someone is to be executed and make a party of it, boozing it up and yelling and whooping like it's all a big game. The occasion deserves solemnity and respect at least.

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I wish they would bring back hanging in this country. It's costing a fortune keeping some of the most vile, evil perverts in bed and breakfast for the rest of their pathetic existence. Our prisons are overcrowded anyway, if we hung all the murderers, kidnappers, rapists and drug dealers there would be plenty of room to house all the new scum.

"The internet is for lonely people. People should live." Charlton Heston

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The US would love to have your prison problems. Our prison population has gone up five- or six-fold over the past 30 years. It now stands at something well over 2,000,000. Overcrowding, gangs, the whole system is an ungodly mess. And of course, here executions are mainly a state, not federal, matter, so in some states there's a death penalty, in others not, and even in the former executions usually take from 12 to as many as 20 years before being carried out. Texas is the big state for killing people...surprise. I think New York may still have the death penalty on the books (it was passed again in the 90s after the Supreme Court outlawed it in the early 70s, but allowed states to institute it again under new guidelines), but the last execution here was in 1963, and I don't believe anyone's on death row in this state.

They actually have a lot of statistics showing that it's more expensive to have a death penalty and keep people on death row than to put someone away for life. Sounds counter-intuitive to me, but apparently even d.p. advocates don't much dispute the evidence.

Who exactly were we planning on executing again? Ed Morgan? Man with rifle? Stanley Moorehead?

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If I was the President of Peru in 1954 I would have had Harry Steele, Ed Morgan and even Moorehead deported instantly for grave robbing. Mind you, having said that, Bingham virtually stole everything that was worth stealing back in 1911, didn't he?

"The internet is for lonely people. People should live." Charlton Heston

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Yeah, you'd think by the time our trio arrived on the scene Bingham would have pretty well cleaned out the joint. I'm sure in real life he would have hacked away at the walls until he found the sunburst and grabbed that too.

By the way, I slightly knew Bingham's son many decades ago -- actually, I met him three or four times when I was a teenager. Jonathan Bingham followed his father into politics and was elected to the House of Representatives, but from New York, not Connecticut, where his father had been a Senator (and, for one day, Governor). Also, Jonathan was a Democrat, not a Republican like his thieving old man. My father knew him because he represented a district where my family had a lot of properties. I met him both at the local Rotary and also at my school a couple of times. He was a pretty well-regarded and distinguished man, though he later got into trouble of some sort, tied in with money I think. (What else?) I'll have to check.

My mother's uncle, who was also a Congressman from New York, didn't like him much if I recall correctly, but I think that was over political differences. Bingham was a reform Democrat who ousted a man named Ed Flynn, called "The Boss of the Bronx", a huge political power-broker in national politics for forty years. Flynn had held a House seat for decades while mainly engaging in power plays with everyone from minor local pols to presidents, but in 1964 Bingham beat him in the party's primary in a major upset. My mother's uncle Jim was an organization Democrat and more conservative, so had little use for reformers, even though they came from different counties within New York City, were of the same party and had no direct bearing on one another's careers.

Just my six degrees of separation thing. I often wondered where that sunburst in my parents' living room came from.

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You met Bingham's son????????
WOW!
Did you ever meet Heston, hob?

"The internet is for lonely people. People should live." Charlton Heston

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Oh no, of course not. As much as I'm into movies I've met almost no one in the business. My brief exchange with Greg Peck on the phone was about the closest I ever got, even though I was related to two actors (Dan Dailey and his sister Irene, who was mostly on stage and TV). Oh, I did briefly meet Alan Alda years ago. I envy James having known Chuck. But I've met a number of politicians.

Catherine's the one who's met just about everybody, at least in Britain, from actors to politicians to other bigwigs. Almost every time I see someone from the UK who's moderately famous and ask her somewhat sarcastically if she'd met him, she'll say, "Well, yes..." and then explain when. She lived next door to her good friend Jeremy Irons and they used to go to the pub together, she made friends with Alan Rickman at a theater, she knew all sorts of TV and radio people in the UK (she once worked at the Beeb), names that mean nothing to me but who are famous in your country, etc., etc. She's met royalty, Lords, MPs, media people, newsmen, corporate executives, multimillionaire businessmen, you name it, and not just a few, but many. She always got invited to big parties in London and elsewhere because she was rather beautiful (well, it's true), very smart, and extremely cheery and friendly.

I'm sure I've told you the tale of how she was rescued from the Queen's corgis by Prince Phillip at St. James's Palace.

And she gave all that up to marry me and disappear into the abyss of the United States. I will never escape the tinge of guilt I feel about luring her from her busy and exciting life in her native land to marry a no-account shlub like me. Really. She certainly had many opportunities to marry well-connected, rich and smart people in Britain, many times over. A few men offered to divorce their wives to wed her. But ever since she met me when she was 19 she always held out hope I'd ask her to marry me, a big nothing. One more reason I'll never quite understand women -- or at least Catherine.

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I just bet you're a charasmatic beast hob! I reckon you should be famous as The Most Intellectual IMDb Poster of All-Time!

"The internet is for lonely people. People should live." Charlton Heston

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A beast, anyway, Os. I also thank you for your compliment re IMDb, but then again, as we've been discussing, just look at some of the posters!

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hobnob53
I've met the Queen, Diana, shook hands with Prince Charles, been on the front page of "Lincolnshire Echo" with Fergie (I made her scream laughing), the Duke off Edinburgh - all these on different occasions - and hundreds of actors,and famous boxers, too many to mention, and a few politicians.

http://www.secretoftheincas.co.ukhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhSPcAyCgwE

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Now, now, James, pride goeth before the fall and all that!

No, seriously, you see, you have the drive to go out and meet such people, which I've never had. I could never bring myself to write to famous people or go up to them and so on -- get involved the way you did when Heston was in Lincoln or go over to Paris to meet Nicole Maurey. Virtually everyone "important" I've met has been by chance, people dragging me up to meet them. I just don't have the nerve or confidence or whatever it takes to go out and make things like that happen. The only reason I've met a lot of politicians is either due to my family connections or from my many years in local office. They no longer impress me.

I've had my by-line in newspapers hundreds of times and been interviewed a fair amount. One of the most recent times I was interviewed was last June, and it got the mayor of our town so angry -- because the reporter went to me instead of him, since I knew more about the subject matter than he did -- that he withdrew an appointment to an office he had just offered me. Then lied about it, but that's a subsidiary story. He's famous for his massive ego and has yelled at other office holders who had had the temerity to get quoted in a newspaper story or been on TV when he wasn't. Really!

Oh -- my wife just came in and asked me to tell you she met Frank Bruno. "Hullo, darlin'!"

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James, how come you have met all those politicians, movie stars, boxers and royalty?

"The internet is for lonely people. People should live." Charlton Heston

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James once watched Frank Bruno TKO the Queen, though out of patriotism he held her up for five rounds to make it look good.

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Hob is right - I do go out of my way to meet celebrities, but sometimes I bump into them, Os. For instance, I was biking to work at 10 a.m. on 29 November 2011 and saw a huge crowd outside Lincoln Cathedral with loads of police, etc. I asked one policeman what was going on and he told me Prince Charles and Camilla were visiting. I hung around for a while and Charles came out and started chatting to people in the line. I stood next to a crowd of schoolkids and he approached me, I shook his hand and he asked me if all these children were mine, we both laughed. I went to work and at dinnertime a lady friend phoned me and told me she had just seen me on the telly with Prince Charles!

http://www.secretoftheincas.co.ukhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhSPcAyCgwE

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So, did Charles help you find a new job after you were fired for being late to work?

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No hob, they didn't even notice I was late ... we don't clock-in at my firm. The very first celebrity I ever met was the singer Dickie Valentine in the early 60's, he was opening a music shop in Lincoln. Some celebrities I met purely by chance are Susannah York, Frank Finlay, Tom Baker, Ronald Reagan, Billy Walker (who couldn't believe I knew so much about his opponents and fights), Richard Todd, Elizabeth Taylor, Richard Burton, Jeffrey Archer (who was supposed to be locked up in Lincoln prison) etc.etc.
The list is endless hob. I can truthfully say that the two nicest movie stars I met were SOTI's Charlton Heston and Nicole Maurey.

The strangest meeting was with Shirley Anne Field. I went to the stage door at Lincoln Theatre Royal with a glossy colour Film Review magazine from 1963 with Shirley on the front cover, and a hard back copy of her autobiography. I knocked on the door and a stagehand opened it and I asked him politely could he get Shirley to sign both of them. Two minutes later Shirley came out onto the street and started begging me to part with the magazine and book! I asked her why she hadn't already got them - "You've read the book haven't you? my ex took the lot and left me with absolutely nothing!" I gave her the book but was reluctant to part with the mag "I've got all the Film Reviews from the 1960's Shirley and it would break up the set". She understood and then we had a nice chat about SATURDAY NIGHT AND SUNDAY MORNING and my one of my favourite British films BEAT GIRL.
Shirley did sign the cover of my Film Review though.

http://www.secretoftheincas.co.ukhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhSPcAyCgwE

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You met Ronald Reagan by chance, James? Please tell me how and where that happened! Was he President at the time?

I kind of suspect that in the cases of some of the people you meet by chance, chance got a shove because you probably put yourself in some situation where the odds of meeting someone famous were greater than usual -- at or near a theater, cinema, hotel, that sort of thing.

I once ran into and spoke with Hume Cronyn at a restaurant in mid-Manhattan, and I found out later that while not a celebrity "hot spot" many actors and others in the arts did tend to frequent this rather elegant beanery, so my encounter wasn't so unusual.

Interesting tale of Shirley Anne Field. Her ex got her books? Sounds a bit desperate and greedy. But you obviously made the right choice in parting with her bio vs. the magazine -- the book could be replaced, the other not. But here again, you demonstrate your inclination to seek out celebs, which of course greatly increases your chances of racking up multiple encounters. I thought SAF was a very beautiful and lovely girl and good actress. I liked her best in The Entertainer, though I thought she was woefully miscast in Kings of the Sun. Too bad her career sputtered out somewhat in the 60s, but she kept plugging away. Another crush I had on a British actress of many years ago was poor Janet Munro. I always thought she was pretty and sexy but drink and other problems hampered her and I gather she had health problems before her untimely death at 38. Very fetching in The Day the Earth Caught Fire.

I've met a lot of American politicians, probably 200 or more, for various reasons, but never a President, so by meeting Reagan (whether he was then President or not) you've one-upped me again. I've seen a couple in the flesh but didn't actually meet them. The highest I ever met was a couple of lowly Vice Presidents. But in probably 60% of these cases I didn't seek them out, I just happened to be in the right situations.

My wife once spent several minutes in a London lift with the Dalai Lama, who overruled his security guards to let her and her friend on even though for security reasons they stopped at every floor and would not allow anyone else on. But the DL thought they were pretty and sweet and enjoyed chatting them up!

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On 19 July 1972 I was in Dublin to see Muhammad Ali fight Al (Blue) Lewis at Croke Park. I attended the weigh-in at the Gresham Hotel in O'Connell Street and Ali was screaming his head off that he was "gonna retire Joe Frazier". In the corner I noticed a very strange looking guy with the weirdest tan I have ever seen (I'm not kidding, he looked orange) with a few guys in suits near him. I couldn't believe my eyes when I got nearer to him, it was Ronald Reagan, then the Governor of California. The reason why he was in Ireland was President Richard Nixon had sent Reagan on a goodwill tour of seven countries. With Ali mouthing off at the other side of the room, I approached him and said, 'Mr Reagan, what do you think to the antics of your fellow countryman?' Reagan replied in hushed tones, 'No comment on the Draft Dodger' which nearly broke me up.

I didn't meet him for long, but I DID meet Ronald Reagan, the future President of the USA.

Incidentally, Muhammad Ali's favourite movie star was Charlton Heston - which amuses me in an ironic way.
Ali dropped his birth name, Cassius Marcellus Clay, because it was his 'slave name given to him by white plantation owners' to adopt his Muslim name of Muhammad Ali. In tv interviews he often said Heston was his favourite actor - even though Heston has played more plantation owners and slaughtered more Muslims in movies than any other Hollywood actor.

Don't you find that ironic?

http://www.secretoftheincas.co.ukhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhSPcAyCgwE

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No, you absolutely did meet Ronald Reagan -- when it was doesn't matter. You see, had I been in that situation I never would have mustered the courage to go up and say anything to him. It's just not in my nature. Well done!

There were always jokes in the 60s and 70s about Reagan looking orange. The writer Gary Wills, in his 1969 book Nixon Agonistes, wrote of attending the 1968 Republican Convention in Miami Beach and of watching Reagan at an airport welcoming ceremony. Wills wrote (this is from memory so may be slightly off), "Reagan does not sweat. One gets the impression that if he did, it would be orange juice." In the run-up to the 1968 convention, when Reagan was conducting a surreptitious campaign for the GOP nomination (that was the last election cycle in which most delegates were chosen in state party caucuses rather than by primaries), a reporter asked Nixon what he thought of the rumors that Reagan was dyeing his hair. Nixon responded with one of his rare funny cracks, saying, "Well, the Governor does seem to be getting prematurely orange." There were many other such comments. So your observation wasn't off.

Having spent a lot of time with older people in the American southwest in the 60s and 70s, people who were well-to-do and conservative and natural Reagan supporters, I can tell you that that aura was not uncommon among men of a certain age and station in that area. Very much of its time and place, the sunny southwest.

How many plantation owners has Charles Heston played? (Sorry, I can't get over that!) Off the top of my head I can think of The Naked Jungle, Diamond Head -- was he one in The Hawaiians? To these I guess you can add the two films where he played Andrew Jackson, who eventually owned a plantation, The President's Lady and The Buccaneer. But only those last two involved black slaves (and had no part in either film anyway), and the others didn't involve blacks or slaves but poorly-paid natives. Still, I suppose Ali would take offense at anything to do with plantations. Strange Heston was his favorite actor.

Here's a bit of trivia for you, James: what's the only American state to have the word "plantation" in its formal name? No fair looking it up!

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I tried to look it up and still couldn't find the answer, hob, so please put this ignorant old fool out of his misery.

http://www.secretoftheincas.co.ukhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhSPcAyCgwE

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Isn't Heston ever called "Charles" at all in the American press, hob? Over here he's often called it ... and the even more infuriating "Charlaton" and "Charleton".
Hey, apart from the plantations, Heston also had slaves in "The Ten Commandments" and "Ben-Hur" (before becoming a slave himself, remember!).

"The internet is for lonely people. People should live." Charlton Heston

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James & Os,

You know, I'm so bloody forgetful, when I was replying to James about slaves I intended to point out precisely what Os just did, namely Heston's both owning and being a slave in TTC and BH. But I was called away midway through typing the post and when I got back had completely forgotten about that! This happens to me a lot these days. I'll be lucky if I remember to finish this sent

Okay, James, I was just being unfair to you with an America-centric question (plus I figured you'd try looking it up anyway!), but the only state with the word "plantation" in its full name is not one most people would assume, i.e., a southern state. It's Rhode Island -- formally, The State of Rhode Island and Providence Plantation. They held a referendum in the state a few years ago to change the name simply to the State of Rhode Island and it was voted down, to many people's surprise. It's the only state with such an involved, non-straightforward name.

We listen to Brain of Britain every week on Radio 4 and since about half the questions are usually about things only a Brit would know I feel obliged to turn the tables every so often! I still manage to get about 10-15 answers right each week (my record is 22) but some (football, UK television shows, very olde English history) I just concede right at the start!

No, Heston is never called "Charles" or anything other than Charlton here, aside from when his friends called him "Chuck", which was the nickname he usually went by. We all remember his story about the confusion at having four Chucks while working on The Big Country! I suppose at the very start of his career there were probably some papers who referred to him by some erroneous variation on his real name but not for long and never again.

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Charlton Heston also owned a plantation in RUBY GENTRY, so I can't possibly imagine another actor playing as many plantation/slave owners as Chuck - that's six movies isn't it? (or eight if you count the Andrew Jackson character).

http://www.secretoftheincas.co.ukhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhSPcAyCgwE

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I almost added Ruby Gentry, but couldn't remember whether he owned a plantation as such -- just as I couldn't recall precisely about The Hawaiians.

But assuming both those films qualify, and even including the Andrew Jackson films, that's only a total of six: Ruby Gentry, The President's Lady, The Naked Jungle, The Buccaneer, Diamond Head and The Hawaiians.

In The Ten Commandments and Ben-Hur he was a slave owner at one point, but the original question was how many plantation owners did he play? No plantations in those two. Besides, in what might be just a quibble, was he really a slave owner in TTC? Yes, as a son of Pharaoh, he had slaves at his command, but this was not quite the same as owning them outright in the way a plantation owner would.

And as I pointed out, his plantation owners all employed workers -- they didn't own slaves -- except for the Jackson pictures, and in both cases, again, neither slaves nor plantations came into the narrative. We just happen to know that Andrew Jackson eventually acquired a plantation and owned slaves.

What about The Greatest Show on Earth? Yes, I know it was a circus, but Ringling Bros. runs it like a plantation. But Brad didn't own the joint, he was just the overseer, so I suppose that doesn't count.

Still, slaves or plantations, no wonder Heston was involved in the civil rights movement in the 60s! Too bad he later regressed to campaigning for an out-and-out racist and foe of civil rights, Jesse Helms.

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hob, re: "Still, I suppose Ali would take offense at anything to do with plantations. Strange Heston was his favorite actor."

Muhammad Ali often name -dropped Charlton Heston in numerous television interviews over here in Britain in the 1960s-1980s, and claimed that Heston was his favourite movie star. I vividly remember Ali reproaching fellow boxer Ken Norton for appearing in MANDINGO and for filming those controversial scenes with Susan George, which he obviously found extremely offensive in a 1974 chat show with Michael Parkinson. Ali really jumped up on his soap box as he sounded off about blacks in the movies.

I've thought about being a movie star, but I couldn't make the movies I want to make. We've got a million black movies being made in America and all of them belittle black people. The wise man who makes them knew what he was doing. He's lulling black slaves to sleep. Black women on television with their titties out, kissing on each other and walking around in nude scenes, in bed with white men. Thy're low rate black people, always cussing 'son of a bitch' and so on and so on. Every movie they make for black people is to show them down. I don't make movies because they use black people to keep black people down and that's the latest trick they got - making black people think they're stars, putting them into bad movies. They won't put me in no movies, won't put me in none of them, because if I make a movie, it's going to have to be like BEN-HUR."

Parkinson then asked Ali who his favourite movie star was. "I like Charlton Heston's films!"

In June 1972 Ali was in training for his rematch with the Irish-American heavyweight Jerry Quarry, and was indulging in a bit of horse-play for the fans who had come to see his training and sparring sessions. Amongst the crowd were my cousins from London, Pamela and Emelda, who knew I was crazy about boxing and took some colour photos. Charlton Heston was in the audience, and Ali spotted him and called Chuck into the ring and introduced him to the appreciative audience. "This is my friend, Charleston Heston," said Ali, muffing the first name. "Don't he look good? There's no weight on him. He's almost as pretty as I am." Pointing to Heston, he told the onlookers, "This is my idol!" Heston was on a promotional tour for SKYJACKED at the time, which, incidentally, he must have done well, because on 9 August 1972 Chuck received a message from President Nixon saying that he and his wife had just seen SKYJACKED in the White House theater and that they thoroughly enjoyed it. Nixon added that he hoped Heston would get an award for the film and thanked him for campaigning for him.

Anyway, back to Ali and Heston. In the "St. Petersburg Times", 9 May 1978, Ali was quoted as saying, "I know there are parts of the United States and Europe where I'm not popular ... but in the Third World nations, I'm Charlton Heston. I'm their John Wayne."

and in the "Boca Raton News", 21 September 1979, Ron Aldridge reported that Ali was in Los Angeles promoting a tv film he had just made called FREEDOM ROAD. Ali name-dropped Chuck again as he boasted about his supposedly great acting ability.
Naturally, when this is on, won't nobody watch the other stations. You think I was a good boxer, wait'll you see my acting .... Charlton Heston is in trouble!"


http://www.secretoftheincas.co.ukhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhSPcAyCgwE

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Frankly, most of this doesn't sound like Heston was Ali's favorite actor as much as it sounds like Ali liked the kinds of films Heston was best known for: where he played larger-than-life figures, men of action and principle, those epic-sized heroes.

Let's look at your examples:

Ali saying, "They won't put me in no movies, won't put me in none of them, because if I make a movie, it's going to have to be like BEN-HUR."

Followed by, Parkinson then asked Ali who his favourite movie star was. "I like Charlton Heston's films!"

Both these show Ali admired Heston's movies, the kind of roles he played. Neither says Heston is his favorite actor. Parkinson may have asked him that question, but Ali's response was about Heston's films, not Heston himself.

The closest he gets in any of these quotes to calling Heston his favorite actor came when he called Heston into the ring during his workouts before the Quarry fight: "This is my friend, Charleston Heston," said Ali, muffing the first name. "Don't he look good? There's no weight on him. He's almost as pretty as I am." Pointing to Heston, he told the onlookers, "This is my idol!"

Yet here again, his admiration for Heston seems plainly based on his liking the kind of parts Heston played. He also admired Heston's athleticism and machismo. If Heston was his "favorite" it was because he liked the heroic image most of Heston's movies placed him in, more than Heston himself.

The last two quotes, "I know there are parts of the United States and Europe where I'm not popular ... but in the Third World nations, I'm Charlton Heston. I'm their John Wayne." and "Naturally, when this is on, won't nobody watch the other stations. You think I was a good boxer, wait'll you see my acting .... Charlton Heston is in trouble!", are simply more self-regardant boasting wherein he cites his images of heroic movie stars, in one case adding John Wayne to Charlton Heston.

The point is that Ali obviously admired Heston's movies, or more specifically, the type of characters he usually played. This may or may not have translated into Heston's being his "favorite" actor, but one has to understand the obvious context in which he made such statements. Ali's own words make his admiration for Heston's kind of characters plain. It's a short step from that to admiring Heston. But you're reading too much, and too much significance, into this handful of statements.

Add to this, as I'm sure you know, Ali was prone to repeating the same things over and over and over and over. He repeated the same poems, the same boasts, the same mantras, the same references to people, events, everything, incessantly, more and more as the years passed. Partly this was the result of incipient brain damage due to the pounding he took over the years as a boxer, but regardless, he obviously seized on his Heston comparison as he did on everything else and brought it up at any suitable opportunity. Clearly, his references were born less out of thoughtful esteem than out of a rather shallow admiration of the prototypical Heston (and, it appears, Wayne) movie characters he admired and, at some level, probably saw himself as; and as usual once his mind seized upon such references, they became part of the mutterings he would routinely sputter at any appropriate opportunity, just rote repetition divorced from much thought.

Bottom line is, I think you're allowing your personal preferences for both boxing and Heston to lead you to overstate the significance of Ali's few statements. I'm sure you could find other stars of whom Ali also spoke glowingly, undoubtedly for the same kind of reasons.

As to Nixon and Skyjacked, James, you're really overreaching here to find some significance:

Heston was on a promotional tour for SKYJACKED at the time, which, incidentally, he must have done well, because on 9 August 1972 Chuck received a message from President Nixon saying that he and his wife had just seen SKYJACKED in the White House theater and that they thoroughly enjoyed it. Nixon added that he hoped Heston would get an award for the film and thanked him for campaigning for him.

First, it's 100% certain that Chuck's promotional tour had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with Nixon screening the film at the White House. Presidents or their aides don't choose films to run at the W.H. because of an actor's "promotional tour", about which they'd be unaware or too busy to care. Heston was a Nixon supporter, and Nixon had very conservative tastes in films and everything else -- particularly in the tumultuous "counter-culture" years of the late 60s and early 70s, during which Nixon ostentatiously set himself up as the embodiment of traditional American values, of the "silent majority". Nixon made a major point in '72 (when he was running for reelection) of being seen with older, conservative stars, the kind who appealed to older, conservative voters, and where he could get ex-Democrats who had once opposed him (Heston was but one -- Frank Sinatra, Sammy Davis and several others also turned coat against their former party) -- so much the better. Many of Nixon's movie-star supporters weren't making many films any more, so when a film with one of them came along, it would be in Nixon's nature to watch it and make a point of complimenting the star on it. Skyjacked is an enjoyable but pretty routine movie, and Nixon wasn't stupid enough to actually believe that Heston deserved an award for his performance in it. It was just empty praise for one of his prominent supporters, geared to appeal to his bedrock constituency, and a bone of thanks tossed to Heston in return for campaigning for him, as Nixon himself said. (Co-star Walter Pigeon was another Nixon supporter, but he was a longtime Republican.)

Meanwhile, Nixon was busy placing such other prominent actors as Gregory Peck, Kirk Douglas, Burt Lancaster, Marlon Brando, Robert Redford, Paul Newman and many more on his infamous Enemies List. Had Heston stayed true to the Democratic Party and not been a Nixon supporter, Skyjacked would not have been screened at the White House and Heston would almost certainly have ended up on the President's Enemies List too. You must stop reading so much into such minor matters!

Incidentally, you know the story -- a true one -- about how Nixon was so taken by the movie Patton that he had it screened in the White House five times over a couple of weeks in 1970. After each showing he kept telling his staff how Patton was a man of action, who never feared to make a decision, and that this was the kind of leadership America needed. He actually had his vicious (and later imprisoned) Chief of Staff, H.R. Haldeman, order all White House staffers to see the movie. All this occurred just weeks before Nixon ordered the invasion of Cambodia, and Nixon himself cited Patton as what inspired him to take that decision -- a widely (and properly) derided reason. Later that year the Democratic nominee for the Senate in New York, Representative Richard Ottinger, remarked to reporters that we were governed by a President who invaded Cambodia after watching Patton, and concluded, "I'm just glad he didn't see The War of the Worlds!"

I wonder if Nixon thought of Skyjacked in 1974, when he was being flown back to California after resigning in disgrace, one jump ahead of impeachment and trial. Since you like trivia (as do I) and have an ability to retain such things (as do I, though not as great as yours), you might be interested to know that Nixon screened Skyjacked at the White House exactly two years to the day before he resigned!

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Bottom line is, I think you're allowing your personal preferences for both boxing and Heston to lead you to overstate the significance of Ali's few statements. I'm sure you could find other stars of whom Ali also spoke glowingly, undoubtedly for the same kind of reasons.

I have only quoted a few of Ali's references to Heston being his favourite movie star - but there were a few more as well. Ali often cited BEN-HUR and THE TEN COMMANDMENTS as his favourite movies, so perhaps he only liked Heston biblical epics. I wonder what the old champ would make of SECRET OF THE INCAS or THE NAKED JUNGLE, and how about Heston in THE OMEGA MAN, kissing the black actress, reputedly the first inter-racial kiss in the movies? Heston as Moses certainly looked like he'd had a romantic interlude with the Ethiopian Queen, judging by the way they looked at each other.

The only other actor whom Ali repeatedly talked about was Christopher Lee, and he even imitated Lee as THE MUMMY when he was training to fight George Foreman, staggering around moving slowly.

Skyjacked is an enjoyable but pretty routine movie, and Nixon wasn't stupid enough to actually believe that Heston deserved an award for his performance in it. It was just empty praise for one of his prominent supporters

Are you trying to tell me that Richard Nixon would actually say something that wasn't the Gospel Truth, hob?




http://www.secretoftheincas.co.ukhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhSPcAyCgwE

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It really does seem to be a case of Ali liking the heroic, larger-than-life roles Heston was most associated with, more than Heston himself. I'm sure he made other statements about Heston beyond the few you cited -- and also about John Wayne and probably others -- but those too fall into his usual pattern of behavior, repeating the same things over and over again whenever given a suitable opportunity.

I may be mistaken because I haven't seen the film in many years, but I'm pretty certain Heston did not kiss the "black actress" -- Rosalind Cash -- in The Omega Man. They were sitting on a couch soon after finding each other, talking, and their mutual need for sex after so many years began to well up inside them, but as they were leaning toward one another and about to kiss, something happened that stopped them just before they touched lips. One source I checked says there was an interracial kiss, and I know Heston claims in his autobiography it happened, but I do not remember it quite getting that far.

In any case, if it did happen it was definitely not the first interracial kiss on film. That distinction belongs to a movie called The Decks Ran Red (1958), with James Mason as an officer battling a mutinous crew aboard a Pacific freighter. Though not much was made of it and it's largely forgotten, in this film Stuart Whitman, as one of the mutineers, kisses Dorothy Dandridge, the wife of the ship's cook, several times. The movie fudged the black/white issue a bit by casting Dandridge as a Maori, not a black woman, so to some white people's minds this was "exotic" rather than unconscionable (or criminal), but everyone knew Dorothy Dandrige was black.

It's often been said that Dorothy Dandridge had engaged in the screen's first interracial kiss, not in The Decks Ran Red, but a year earlier in Island in the Sun, where she had a thoroughly unconvincing interracial romance with John Justin. But in point of fact the pair do not kiss in that film. They embrace, hold each other cheek-to-cheek, but never kiss. It may have looked daring for 1957, but it was completely unrealistic, and if they did shoot a kissing scene (as has been rumored) it wound up on the cutting room floor. (Joan Fontaine and Harry Belafonte also had an interracial affair in that film, but there was no touching between them, let alone kissing, and as with all the actors cast in it, not the slightest bit of chemistry between any of them.)

I believe there was a film made in the late 60s and set in the American South that featured an interracial kiss, but if so it's just not coming to mind. But Jim Brown and Raquel Welch shared such a kiss in 100 Rifles in 1968, and there may have been a kiss in the 1964 film One Potato, Two Potato, about a divorced white woman in Ohio who marries a black man but later loses custody of her daughter to her ex-husband because of her interracial marriage. It was a small black & white (naturally) film made on location, and stars Barbara Barrie (who won the Cannes Film Festival award as Best Actress) and Bernie Hamilton. I know Miss Barrie very well as a neighbor, and she's told me many details about making that film. I've seen it just once and frankly don't remember whether they kissed; truthfully I have no recollection that they did, though they might well have.

Of course, there was also the "infamous" first television interracial kiss, in the third-season episode of Star Trek called "Plato's Stepchildren", in which aliens with telekinetic powers force Kirk to kiss Uhura. That was broadcast, to much controversy, in 1969.

Anyway, all these pre-date The Omega Man.

Yes, Richard Nixon often lied, and that's Gospel. He also never had an interracial kiss, though he did look like he was going to die of embarrassment (and lose the Southern white vote) when Sammy Davis, Jr., embraced him on stage at the Republican National Convention in 1972.

(In memory of a recently departed star: during Nixon's presidency there were several satirical records made with imitators "doing" Nixon, and in a routine on one record Nixon is holding a press conference and a reporter asks him, "Mr. President, it's been mentioned that your administration has appointed very few blacks. Would you care to comment?" "Well that's not quite true," Nixon replies, "I have appointed blacks. Very recently, I appointed Shirley Temple Black.")

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James and hob. As well as his biblical epics there was loads of religious moments in Heston's other movies, apart from Ali's favourites "Ben-Hur" and "The Ten Commandments". How about Chuck imitating the crucified Jesus in "The Omega Man", or the barking mad brother of "Ruby Gentry" who quotes the bible as he shoots people, as does Donald Pleasence in "Will Penny". Who can forget the catholic priest in "The Greatest Show on Earth" blessing the circus train with all those altar boys? Its bizarrely hysterical!
There are loads of religious moments in Chuck's non-biblical movies that Ali would enjoy.

"The internet is for lonely people. People should live." Charlton Heston

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Who can forget the catholic priest in "The Greatest Show on Earth" blessing the circus train with all those altar boys? Its bizarrely hysterical!

As a Roman Catholic, I don't find that scene in THE GREATEST SHOW ON EARTH 'bizarrely hysterical' at all, Oswald. You won't find his name on the IMDb credits of the film, but the priest is actually Father Charles L. Eslander of Saint Martha's Church, Sarasota, Florida. It was an annual event at loading time, the Reverend Father Eslander and his aides, 12 altar boys, always blessed the circus train on its departure from Winter Quarters.

I like the fact that they blessed the train, it was suppopsed to ensure a safe journey - that is, until Lyle Bettger threw a jealous fit!

http://www.secretoftheincas.co.ukhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhSPcAyCgwE

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How the hell do you know all this stuff James?
I looked for the priest's name on TGSOE cast list and you be right, you be!
No sign of Charles Eslander, but I did spot that mistake that you pointed out a while back. The imdb have SOTI's William Henry as a child spectator, even though he was heading towards 40 at the time!
I reckon they have got him mixed with up with this little blighter http://www.imdb.com/name/nm5151592/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1 young Billy Henry, who only made three films around that period. Anyway, its certainly not the guy who played Phillip Lang in "Secret of the Incas".

Edit: Decided to google that priest in TGSOE and found this http://www.yourobserver.com/news/sarasota/Neighborhood/1107201330210/C elestial-Community
so thanks for that info Jimbo, it was very interesting. So how come the priests name aint on the imdb list?


"The internet is for lonely people. People should live." Charlton Heston

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Os and James. You know you can send a correction or addition to IMDb for its various lists, including cast members. Have you tried correcting the name of the kid, or inserting Father Eslander's name? As to the latter, you could cite Os's link as evidence.

That history of the church in Sarasota says that the scene of Eslander blessing the train was a reenactment, not the real thing. I never thought about it, but I guess I always assumed it was staged for the movie, even though I knew they did this in reality. But I suppose it could have been the real thing had they shot it when the train actually departed for the circus's 1951 season.

I also never thought about James's point that that blessing didn't work too well on that trip, thanks to Hans's brainy decision to drive his car onto the tracks towards the onrushing second section. Best scene in the film!

I didn't get the impression that Os thought the idea of the priest blessing the train was "bizarre" -- but maybe I'm wrong. I thought Os was referring to the idea of a priest leading a bunch of altar boys to the task. Given everything we know today about the Church's predilection for covering up or winking at rampant sexual abuse of children worldwide, its enslavement for decades of young girls in Ireland as wash women, as well as its countless other immoralities committed and hushed up in the name of religion (but actually protecting the Church's financial, social and political standing), it wouldn't surprise me if Good Father Eslander was molesting his altar boys too. Maybe offering free tickets to the circus in exchange. (These crimes, lies, cover-ups and denials are one reason I'm a very lapsed Catholic.)

Sarasota, by the way, is a lovely city on the Gulf Coast.

Os, why do you think Muhammed Ali was attracted to anything religious in The Ten Commandments or Ben-Hur? That never occurred to me at all, and I'm certain the religious aspects meant nothing to him. I believe he found the characters of Moses and Ben-Hur appealing because of their heroic (i.e., for Ali, macho) deeds and demeanors. So I don't think any incidental -- and Christian -- religious allusions were relevant to him, especially after he converted to Islam.

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it wouldn't surprise me if Good Father Eslander was molesting his altar boys too. Maybe offering free tickets to the circus in exchange. (These crimes, lies, cover-ups and denials are one reason I'm a very lapsed Catholic.)

Wow hob! that's some statement you made there. Talk about tarring everyone with the same brush. I actually can't believe you wrote something like that!

I have been googling some more stuff on the catholic priest in the film hob, and found this article which indicates everyone loved Father Eslander!

http://archive.catholicherald.co.uk/article/15th-february-1952/6/a-hun dred-and-three-ringed-circus

When the Ringley Bros. and Barnum and Bailey circus goes into its winter quarters in Florida, its special friend and guide is Fr. Eslander, parish priest of a little town in Florida. The circus folk like him so much that they have helped him rebuild his old church. From all over the world they gave the biggest performance ever, so that they could raise enough money; and not only did he gets new church but a fine new parish hall as well.

You can see Fr. Eslander. attended by his altar boys. blessing the circus train as it leaves for the big tour just as he always does.





"The internet is for lonely people. People should live." Charlton Heston

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I'm not tarring everyone with the same brush, merely stating that so many immoral acts were committed by people supposedly in the service of God, morality, truth and compassion -- for centuries, in one form or another -- that it would not be surprising if Fr. Eslander was of the same type. This isn't an accusation, not even speculation, just acknowledgment that such a thing could have happened.

Beloved priests and nuns are being exposed as sexual predators, cruel and sadistic tyrants, or common thieves every day. Reputations mean nothing. The Church itself set up illegal systems such as the one in Ireland that took young girls' babies away and, for their "sins", put the girls to work in conditions equivalent to slavery, and for decades covered up abuses of any kind, be they financial, sexual or anything else. This apart from routine abuses of power and authority right down to the parish level. What better hiding place for evil than behind a veneer of piety and religious authority?

Of course, many if not most Catholic priests and nuns didn't engage in such practices. But a great many did. They used the Church for their own very temporal and depraved purposes, and the Church was in one form or another complicit, right up to the top. Even the present Pope has admitted this and criticized past Church efforts to deny such things and to protect liars, thieves and predators. I can't believe you would defend, excuse or downplay such rampant behavior, Os!

So why did the scene of Eslander blessing the circus train strike you as bizarre? Just because he was blessing a train -- or, more precisely, the performers?

By the way, did you copy-and-paste that last sequence in your post, the one in italics? If so, whoever wrote it couldn't even get the name of the circus right. It's Ringling -- not "Ringley". And Sarasota wasn't a "little town" even back then.

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Good grief, I make one innocent little remark about a catholic priest blessing the train in "The Greatest Show on Earth" and all hell is let loose. James turns into Pope Byrne 1 and hobnob suddenly makes Fred Phelps look like the voice of reason!

I probably used the wrong word when describing the train being blessed as "bizarre" - I just meant that the scene makes me laugh because it looks so funny - a priest blessing a train!

hob, I would love to be a fly on the wall when you are watching TGSOE, just to hear your reaction at all the things that bug you.

Look at those animal-torturing lion tamers! why, they even look like Republicans to me!

And how 'bout that catholic priest standing next to those altar boys ... it wouldn't surprise me if he was a Republican as well as a pedo, the four-eyed bald headed perverted bastard!

Oh look, that's all I need, another bald-headed wife-beating Republican pervert, the alcoholic neo-nazi child torturer Bing Crosby is sitting next to those kids - why doesn't somebody warn them!

Good heavens! look at that sequined Republican homo Cornel Wilde, flashing his meat and two veg at all those innocent kiddies!

This just takes the cake now ... that vile pedo Hopalong Cassidy just flashed his gun at the kids in the front row, an obvious secret signal which probably means ... Hop on this kids!

"The internet is for lonely people. People should live." Charlton Heston

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Speaking about all hell breaking loose.... Get a grip, there, Os. Maybe ask Buttons to prescribe some meds. He must have some old prescription pads hidden in his trunk somewhere, next to his make-up remover.

I guess there are things that bug me about TGSOE but nothing so great or intriguing that it'd be worth sitting with me to hear me say anything, other than maybe I hope Holly falls from the trapeze or off the trampoline. Nothing funny or interesting or even bizarre about the priest or his blessing the train ever occurred to me until you commented upon it. You opened the floodgates, Os!

How come you spell "Catholic" with a small c? You some kind of anti-Papist fanatic?

Poor Fred Phelps kicked the bucket last week. One comedian/political commentator here mentioned the news, with a photo of tol'able Fred holding up signs saying "Fags hate God" and "God hates fags", which then switched to a photo of a guy wearing skin-tight, thigh-high black-leather pants, a black leather G-string, a black cap, and nothing else, striking a come-hither pose. The comedian (Bill Maher) then said, "I hope that, when Fred Phelps arrives at the Pearly Gates, this is the guy who'll be there to greet him."

With Fr. Eslander, no doubt, ready to sprinkle him.

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I didn't realise you had to spell catholic with a capital c, hob. That's certainly worth knowing for future reference. Poor .... ???? Fred Phelps, what a sinister, evil, nutjob. A perfect role for Bela Lugosi ... if they were contemporaries. The programmes about them are compulsive viewing in England, I reckon, as a family, they were far funnier than the Munsters or the Addams family. Especially when those crazy women broke out into song on the court steps. I doubt Phelps will get the opportunity to sprinkle Father Eslander where he is, hob. Although he could certainly use the water!

"The internet is for lonely people. People should live." Charlton Heston

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Yes, catholic with a small c means eclectic or varied, as in someone having very catholic tastes, like me liking both Secret of the Incas and Gojira. Although the fact they were both made in 1954 somewhat reduces the degree of "catholicism" in my analogy!

You have programs about Fred Phelps in England?! When you say they're compulsory, I assume you mean this figuratively, not that the police actually raid your home to force you to watch The Fred Phelps Hour on BBC2. Frankly I doubt one American in a hundred could tell you who he was; in fact, I don't consider myself uninformed, and I knew about him and his disgusting antics, but if you'd asked me his name I wouldn't have remembered it. He created a lot of outrage but few people even in this lunatic country followed or agreed with him, or knew his name. His death passed barely noticed but was quickly forgotten. I think his daughter will be carrying on his good work but no one cares about her or her handful of psychos. He was an evil piece of human filth and if there is a hell I hope he's suffering eternally in it.

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Here in GB, there has been about four different programmes on Fred Phelps and his happy little tribe of do-gooders, and the day after they are broadcast everyone is talking about the content of the show. They are car crash entertainment over here, hob. What I don't understand is, how come nobody shot them? I'm being serious .... if anyone deserves a bullet in the face its that pack of weirdos!

I put "The Greatest Show on Earth" on last night, and my missus actually watched it with me. She pointed out something I never realised before - Brad Braden and Harry Steele both go against the grain of their characters by becoming 'nice guys' at the end of the movie. She also wanted to know if Lyle Bettger lent his jodhpurs to Robert Young for "Secret of the Incas", which I couldn't answer unfortunately. I enjoy TGSOE more and more every time I see it. Its easily the best Hope, Crosby, Lamour movie anyway!

"The internet is for lonely people. People should live." Charlton Heston

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Here Fred Phelps's band was good only for outrageous news reports when they crashed a dead soldier's funeral in that psychotic way Fred had of believing that doing so was somehow linked with his hatred for homosexuals. (I assume he was a repressed homosexual, hence his outrage.) There was at least one court case seeking to bar the bunch from protesting at the funeral, but the most the judge could do was issue a restraining order keeping them far enough away so that they didn't completely disrupt the ceremony; they have First Amendment rights to protest, though not to break the law or be disruptive.

For a pig who professed to be so devoted to God to disrupt the funeral of a solider who had absolutely nothing to do with the supposed reason for his protest was unconscionable. Of course, he was doing it for the publicity. No one would pay him much mind if he simply protested whatever his issues were outside the Capitol building.

No one shot him because it's the right-wing here who has most of the guns and uses them. Even though he riled a lot of conservatives by his antics they'd only shoot abortion doctors and liberal Congressmen. Although I'd have hoped that some of a dead soldier's well-armed buddies might do some shooting. But then you'd have to be willing to go to jail, and Phelps wasn't worth it. Frankly, if a soldier or two had shot him at a funeral I think most juries would have let them off.

The Greatest Show on Earth -- With due respect, I strongly disagree with your wife's assessment that Brad goes against the grain of his character and becomes a nice guy at the end, à la Harry. Brad is a good guy throughout. He's tough but not bad, completely fair, honest and friendly to everyone. He's not ripping anyone off, stealing, being nasty or anything else. He has no enemies and is completely trustworthy. The only ones he's hard on are the chiselers trying to cheat people on his midway, which points to the goodness of his character. I don't see any likeness to Harry Steele at all, certainly nothing of any significance. Brad doesn't transform in the least. He's the same guy at the end as at the beginning...including his same lack of taste in women.

Interesting question about the jodhpurs. They belonged to the Paramount prop department, so I wouldn't be surprised if Robert Young got them two years later for SOTI. Klaus wasn't wearing them when he derailed the train so they didn't still have his legs in them or anything.

I hope your wife liked the train wreck -- in fact, what did she think of the film in general?

Incidentally, remember how we had a brief discussion a while back on another thread, about the possibility of a CD with the soundtrack of TGSOE? From what I've read since, I tend to doubt we'll ever get one, at least not a complete one. It sounds as though most if not all of the original tracks may be lost. There might be a recording of some of the score still around but apparently not the complete soundtrack -- again, assuming any even survives. If this proves to be the case, it'll be too bad. It's a good Victor Young score, his last for DeMille.

Did you point out to your wife that John Ringling North got four mentions in the opening credits? That might be some kind of record. He's credited as a co-star, technical advisor, co-writer of one of the circus songs, and as President of Ringling Bros.

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My wife loves TGSOE, hob. She reckons its "a classic piece of Americana" - whatever that means (she's a helluva lot cleverer than me). It was the missus who informed me that Buttons was quoting from Oscar Wilde, I certainly would never read anything written by that bloke. GHF's doesn't he? She didn't notice any elephant abuse either, or worried-looking altar boys, or bad acting by Betty Hutton, so I guess you don't respect her opinion anymore.

She stands by the "Harry Steele/Brad Braden about-turns" at the end of both movies, though. Brad wasn't a bad person, but he suddenly wanted to settle down with Betty Hutton, and even accused her of having sawdust in her veins, or something similar. His sudden need to be domestic was ludicrous, after what we had witnessed in the preceeding 2 hours plus.


"The internet is for lonely people. People should live." Charlton Heston

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Yeah, Brad turns around about marriage, but that's hardly in the same league with Harry's conversion. The first was simply changing his mind about an admittedly big decision. The second was an almost complete reversal of character and intentions. Both men change, but Brad in a modest (if important) way on one subject, while Harry seems to adopt an entirely new outlook, change of direction and conversion of his entire character.

Besides, Brad wasn't refusing to marry Holly. He just kept putting it off. It wasn't a case of him turning 180° even on that one subject. I think he was always moving in that general direction, but slowly. He just needed to be nudged into action. His conversion wasn't ludicrous because as he tries to tell Holly, after he almost checked out the night before he realized what he'd been missing. By contrast, Harry switched from being con man, liar, thief and immoral user to doing the right thing in virtually a snap of his fingers, with no life-altering intervening event to change his character.

But I do mostly agree with your wife about TGSOE. It is a classic piece of Americana, albeit of a largely vanished era, and yes of course, that line about killing the thing you love indeed comes from Oscar Wilde. (Took me a moment to get your "GHF" reference, per our prior topic!) Though I'm sure Holly thinks it originated with the magazine writer. Nifty of that elephant to pick up a torn-out page from a magazine that just happened to have an article about Buttons, not to mention his doing so right in front of Buttons! DeMille certainly knew how to keep things credible!

As for her/your following observations: (1) I don't know if there was elephant abuse. Ringling Bros. has been attacked for mistreating animals from time to time, to the present day -- much more so than back in 1952. I don't remember saying anything about that but if I did I'm sure there were instances. Of course, Brad fires Klaus for trying to have the elephant step on Angel's face, but I don't know that that constitutes animal abuse. (2) The altar boys all look very quiet and downcast, so you can probably read anything into their blank countenances. I'm sure the good Father took them back to the parish for ice cream afterwards, the only issue being whether they'd have to lick something else besides the cone. (3) You wife needs to see more Betty Hutton, in this film and others. Betty grows more appalling with repeated viewings.

And I certainly do respect her opinions!

(Speaking of the Ringling Bros. elephants, for a couple of years, several years ago, I would go into New York City late one spring night to join friends at a restaurant where, beginning around midnight, we watched the circus elephants being led along 34th Street toward Madison Square Garden where the circus would be staged. They unloaded them in the borough of Queens, across the East River on Long Island, and marched them through the Midtown Tunnel over to Manhattan, where they were led through the streets crosstown toward MSG, about halfway across the island. The police blocked the streets off and diverted traffic to accommodate their slow progress across the city. It was pretty fun to watch major Manhattan streets shut down for elephants, even in the middle of the night!)

I think James is mad at me and has been for a while. (I'm sure he'll read this so it's hardly being kept a secret.) He just pointed out, on the "Simon Cowell" thread where we had that exchange about Elena's profession, that I had indeed previously argued that Elena was not a prostitute, an opinion I had long since shed and forgotten about but which he brought back to haunt me. But I'm disturbed by his tone in that and a couple of other recent replies. I think I'm finally annoying him!

When you see this, James, I hope you won't take offense. And I hope I'm wrong!

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You don't want to fall out with that Byrne bloke, hob, he used to be a boxer, y'know, although he uses those fancy footsteps on the dance floor now and not the boxing ring.
My wife has just told me that Betty Hutton was perfect as Holly in TGSOE, she says it was perfect casting by De Mille. Circus people are all OTT anyway, and full of energy - so Betty certainly fitted the bill.

"The internet is for lonely people. People should live." Charlton Heston

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Yes, Betty was probably an apt choice for that role. But that doesn't make her more bearable! (Hedy Lamarr claimed in her autobiography that DeMille originally offered her the part, but there seems to be some doubt about that.)

No, I don't want to fall out with James any more than with any of you guys...though as far as his pugilistic talents go, I, at least, have an ocean between us.

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When you see this, James, I hope you won't take offense. And I hope I'm wrong!

hob
I'm totally confused!
Perusing through my last few posts to you I cannot detect any hostility in my tone, in fact, on the Charlton Heston Stamp board we are obviously the best of buddies.
The only thing I didn't really like was you making false allegations about Father Eslander, the Catholic priest in THE GREATEST SHOW ON EARTH. It's tough being a Roman Catholic nowadays - every time one of those 'priests' gets exposed, I have to face a barrage of criticism at work for being a Catholic. I was an altar boy in the early 1960's, I had to get up at six in the morning to learn the Latin Mass and then go straight to school afterwards. Nothing happened to me or my schoolfriends that was untoward in any way. The only time I got punished was in 1962 in the sacristy just before High Mass. Twenty of us were larking about noisily, discussing the Heston western ARROWHEAD (of all movies!) which had just been on tv that Sunday afternoon, and the priest burst in on us and gave the noisiest of us a clip around the ear. We didn't think anything of it, canings and punishment were the norm in schools in the 50s and 60s. The only drawback of being an altar boy was the rota. We had to take it in turn to serve the early Mass at seven in the morning - then go straight to school, which made for a long day. My mate was very excited one morning. He boasted to the rest of us altar boys that he had held the chalice while the British pop group "The Searchers" received Holy Communion. They were very big at the time, and I still have some of their stuff even now! They took their name from the John Wayne western, which seemed to have inspired a few others as well. Buddy Holly wrote "That'll be the day!" after seeing THE SEARCHERS, which in turn became a David Essex movie. TAXI DRIVER was supposed to be based on it also - Scorsese talks in raptures about this classic western.

Anyway, hob, I just wanted to tell you that I hold you in the highest esteem. Your posts may be opinionated, but they certainly aren't dull, and they are all well worth reading. I am pleased that you write such interesting stuff on SECRET OF THE INCAS, and you are still the only person who has stumped me on a question concerning the film. I think you are the most interesting poster on the IMDb, hob, and I look forward to buying you a pint in an English pub one day.

http://www.secretoftheincas.co.ukhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhSPcAyCgwE

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Has your copy of "Crisis" arrived yet, James?

"The internet is for lonely people. People should live." Charlton Heston

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James, don't misunderstand me, I thought I had offended you in some way. Any problem would be entirely my fault! I certainly wasn't accusing you of anything untoward, unjust or unholy at all, just voicing my own worries that I had caused you some irritation. As far as I'm concerned, you're A-number 1 in my book, probably a better man than I. (Though admittedly that's not a great feat.)

I will take just a small issue with you about my making "false allegations" against Father Eslander. I really wasn't making any allegations about him at all, just going off on my usual tangent making my usual dopey remarks. Having fun, albeit in a tasteless way.

Don't forget, I'm a Catholic too, so it's a bit of in-house inveighing. But many of the lapses of the Church have been disturbing to me, the more so I think because it is my faith, from which in many ways I now feel estranged.

As always, you're most kind, forgiving, understanding, and ever the gentleman.

Now to see about those stamps...!

ADDENDUM: James and OSK -- Did you both order Crisis? I thought only you did Os. Either way, let me know how you liked it. Also Killers From Space, James!

You'll definitely be able to exercise your boxing skills on me after that one.

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My copy of "Crisis" has just arrived, hob. Jose Ferrer was excellent, but Cary Grant didn't convince me at all that he was a brain surgeon. There wasn't enough action for my liking, but it was still a good movie - but I didn't recognize even one actor from "Secret of the Incas" in it - and there's supposed to be five?????
Where the hell are they then? maybe they were mixed in with all the screaming peasants attacking Ferrer's palace at the end, because most of the film was taken up with indoor scenes involving Grant, Ferrer and Gilbert Roland. Miguel Contreras is called Mickey Contreras in this cast list - are they the same person? and Carlos Rivero has 'undetermined role' next to his name!

Cary Grant ... Dr. Eugene Norland Ferguson
José Ferrer ... Raoul Farrago
Paula Raymond ... Helen Ferguson
Signe Hasso ... Senora Isabel Farrago
Ramon Novarro ... Colonel Adragon
Gilbert Roland ... Roland Gonzales
Leon Ames ... Sam Proctor
Carlos Barbe ... Friend of Farrago
Orlando Beltran ... Doctor's Assistant
Audrey Betz ... Servant
George Brady ... Student
Robert Cabal ... Very Young Man
Andy Carillo ... Man at Table
Bridget Carr ... Guest
Teresa Celli ... Rosa Aldana
Carlos Conde ... Man
Rita Conde ... Pretty Woman
Mickey Contreras ... Bit Part
Pedro de Cordoba ... Father Del Puento
David Cota ... Student
Larry Crane ... Student
Fernando Del Valle ... Bull Routine Man
Amapola Del Vando ... Friend of Farrago
Joe Dominguez ... Rubio
Juan Duval ... Proud Little Man
Carlos Figueroa ... Old Man
Joaquin Garay ... Student
Captain Garcia ... Miguel Farrago
Kenneth Garcia ... Guest
Martin Garralaga ... Señor Magano
John George ... Man in Crowd on Street
Eddie Gomez ... Doctor's Assistant
Rafael Gomez ... Soldier
Vicente Gómez ... Cariago
Al Haskell ... Soldier
Pepe Hern ... Student
Samuel Herrera ... Man at Door
Phyllis Hill ... Barmaid
Rodolfo Hoyos Jr. ... Chauffeur
Lillian Israel ... Nurse
Maurice Jara ... Luis
Soledad Jiménez ... Raoul's Mother, Señora Farrago
George J. Lewis ... Hotel Desk Clerk
Bob Lugo ... Soldier
Myron Marks ... Soldier
Margaret Martin ... Indian Woman
Merrill McCormick ... Man with Scar
Melba Meredith ... Woman in Café
Carlotta Monti ... Nurse
Alex Montoya ... Robust Indian
Connie Montoya ... Nurse
Antonio Moreno ... Dr. Emilio Nierra
Neyle Morrow ... Student
George Navarro ... Dr. Gracian
Robert Polo ... Man at Table
Jerry Riggio ... Man at Table
Carlos Rivero ... Undetermined Role
Mario Siletti ... General Valdini
Robert Tafur ... Marco Aldana
Carlo Tricoli ... Nervous Man in Lobby
Felipe Turich ... Man with Valise / Voice on Loudspeaker
Danilo Valente ... Eduardo
Trina Varella ... Guest
Harry J. Vejar ... Guest
Zacharias Yaconelli ... Soldier
Roque Ybarra ... Man in Car

"The internet is for lonely people. People should live." Charlton Heston

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Well, James would know which actors qualify for the SOTI overlap. All very minor players in each I believe.

I'm sorry you were expecting more of an action film, Os. I guess I should have stated that, in keeping with a story about a brain surgeon, the movie is pretty cerebral.

There was a somewhat similar British film, also made in 1950, called State Secret, with Douglas Fairbanks, Jr. I've never seen it.

Interesting behind-the-scenes tale about Crisis. Richard Brooks was a screenwriter who wanted to direct, and this film would be his directorial debut. MGM said it would back Crisis if Brooks could snare a top star. Brooks wanted Grant and went to see him at the racetrack. Grant had hardly listened to Brooks when he told him he'd do the film. Later, on the first day of shooting, the inexperienced Brooks was standing in the way when a camera dollying around the set ran over his foot. Cameras in those days were huge and heavy and Brooks was in great pain. Grant didn't see the accident but soon saw Brooks in obvious distress and asked him what had happened. When Brooks told him, Grant insisted he get to the studio infirmary to have his foot checked out, since it might well be broken. Brooks said, "Cary, if I leave this set, in fifteen minutes MGM will have another director down here filming this picture." Grant replied, "If MGM sends down another director they're going to have to send down another leading man with him." With that, Grant made sure Brooks got medical attention and assured him he'd use his clout to keep Brooks on the picture. It turned out that his foot wasn't broken, just badly bruised, and he soon returned and completed the film.

Brooks always said he owed Cary his career as a director. It's a nice testimony to Grant's willingness to be generous and helpful to up-and-coming talents.

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That was wonderful of Cary Grant, hob. I always liked him as an actor, particularly "Only Angels Have Wings" and "North by Northwest". I only bought "Father Goose" because the imdb said it was Robert DeNiro's first film, but of course, they got it wrong again - the same with the cast of TGSOE (the imdb has Van Johnson as a 'spectator'). "Father Goose" was a nice surprise, I really enjoyed it.
It will be interesting to hear James' opinion on "Crisis" and the invisible SOTI cast members!

I just looked up the cast list of "Father Goose" on imdb and De Niro's name has now been deleted from the cast!

"The internet is for lonely people. People should live." Charlton Heston

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Robert DeNiro in Father Goose?! Where do they come up with these things?

I gather Cary was better to work with than he was in his private life. He had personal problems that he himself admitted bedeviled him for years. He had issues with most of his wives, and of course he took LSD under medical supervision for a time in the early 60s, which may not have helped matters. Dyan Cannon said he beat her in front of his servants and this was apparently true.

He also had a reputation of being extremely cheap and preoccupied with money. Ingrid Bergman, who supposedly liked him so much, nevertheless called him "mean" in the sense of being tight with his money. Joan Fontaine almost hated him. Even some of his friends such as Gregory Peck and Kirk Douglas were amused yet alarmed at the sight of Cary, at Universal in the early 60s, obsessing and being frantic off-set about some modest financial issue concerning an apartment complex in Ireland he had invested in.

Many in the Hollywood community harbored a real dislike for him, and it's not always clear why. When Peck was President of the Motion Picture Academy in the late 60s he had to lobby for three years to get the Board to agree to award Cary an honorary Oscar at the 1969 ceremonies (held in 1970). Reportedly both the studios and the Academy conspired to make sure Grant was overlooked by Oscar year after year (he had only two nominations and both those for lesser roles). This probably grew out of Cary's breaking from the studio system in the late 30s. The studios needed him because he was so popular but they also worked to limit his critical recognition.

Yet others testified to his loyalty, his perfectionism (in a good way), his intimate understanding of what works in films and his help to other performers. Late in life he himself admitted to having had many personal issues, which is why he liked to bury himself behind the image of "Cary Grant". (He formally changed his name from Archie Leach in 1942 when he became an American citizen.) Ultimately I think he found peace with himself and his troubled background. But while there are people who had problems with him there are many others who loved him and whom he helped. I guess like all of us Cary Grant had may sides to his personality, from brain surgeon to beach bum.

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hob and Os
My copy of CRISIS arrived yesterday morning and I watched it straight away after arriving home from work last night. To be honest, I wasn't expecting much, but was pleasantly surprised at the crisp image and sound of the movie, considering it is 64 years old. Jose Ferrer was excellent as the dictator - I'd forgotten just how good an actor he was - and by coincidence I saw him in an old episode of COLUMBO last week. Cary Grant is always watchable in anything, but he seemed to be trying just a little too hard to be taken serious as the brain surgeon. His portrayal didn't ring true to me, but it certainly didn't detract from my enjoyment of the film ... even though the ending was one of the weirdist I have ever seen.

Now, about the bit players and character actors who are supposedly in both CRISIS and SECRET OF THE INCAS. The only one I definetely recognized was Robert Tafur, you couldn't really miss him ... he's in a number of scenes and is quite visible in a few close-ups.

The other four .... well, I'm afraid I drew a blank on that one. Even the usually easily recognizable Martin Garralaga is difficult to spot. The bit player Miguel Contreras is totally impossible to locate in any of his brief film appearences, because nobody knows what he looks like and his film characters never seemed to be named. Miguel (or Mickey - they are the one and same person) is listed as "uncredited" in SECRET OF THE INCAS by the IMDb, but neither the AFI or the BFI even list him at all. The Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Science has him as an "Indian" in SOTI. They list other bit parts as follows-

Rosa Rey - Ocillo
Alvy Moore - Tourist at bar
Rodolfo Hoyos - Maitr d
Zacharias Yaconelli - Bartender
Carlos Rivero - Driver
Delmar Costello - Indian
Anthony Numkena - Boy

On the cast list on my website, I listed Rosa Rey as "Kori-Tika's mother" because she is never called Ocillo in any scene, and it would have been confusing to anyone who was looking for the name of the actress playing that character.I also have Rodolfo Hoyos as Manuel, the Hotel Manager, which Heston addresses him by. To me, it is certainly Dimas Sotello as Luis the bartender - not Zacharias Yaconelli. I also changed Anthony Numkena's character to "runner" instead of "boy".

The very first time I even looked at a computer was August 2004, at my sister's house, and my niece showed me the IMDb page on SECRET OF THE INCAS. It only had 28 cast members and half of them were listed as "uncredited". I contacted the IMDb and filled in five character's names for them, which they eventually published a few weeks later. Also, in the 2004 "goofs" section they had 'the little Indian boy' holding up the heavy Sunburst at the movie's end, which I changed to Michael Pate as Pachacutec, but it was such a long drawn-out process that I gave it up as a bad job.

In answer to hob about Nicole Maurey. We had a very long talk about the Roman Catholic church, Nicole is now a lapse Catholic, like me, and you too, hob. She told me twice that the location footage in SECRET OF THE INCAS was "taken from a documentary, and added later" and on the second occasion I corrected her, but she took some convincing, believe me!

It was only when I told her that Heston finished filming BAD FOR EACH OTHER in May 1953, then flew straight to Peru in June to film the SOTI location footage with Irmin Roberts, and then came back to Hollywood to shoot THE NAKED JUNGLE. After that Heston flew to Bermuda to play MacBETH at an open-air production at Fort St. Catherine's, directed by Burgess Meredith. In Oct-Nov 1953 Heston filmed SECRET OF THE INCAS at Paramount Studios with Nicole and Bob Young. Only Michael Pate was aware that Heston had been on location in Cuzco, Peru, four months previous to the studio filming. Anyway, only after explaining all that to Nicole, did she believe me (raising one eyebrow and saying "Well, you know more about the film than me, James")

Os, the other two actors from SECRET OF THE INCAS who told me I knew more about the film than them were Michael Pate and Anthony Numkena. Here's a nice little story about Anthony Numkena, who was picked over 500 hopefuls for his role as Tyrone Power's adopted Indian son in PONY SOLDIER. The day he got the job he wangled a role for his father as well. The nine year-old Numkena asked the producer Samuel G Engel if he needed good Indians actors for the film - which he did. "Well, Sir, my father is a fine actor. He is also one of the few Indians in Holywood who can shoot a bow and arrow with skill. He can also sing. He can also ride horseback. He can ...."
"Sold" said Engel, and Anthony Numena Senior was signed immediately.

http://www.secretoftheincas.co.ukhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhSPcAyCgwE

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Glad you basically liked Crisis, James. Was the ending really "weird"? I don't think so. Different, maybe. I also want to put in a word for Signe Hasso, as the Eva Peron-like wife of el Presidente Farrago...a rather clever name for Ferrer's character, of course.

Also, Martín Garralaga is in the scene in the café, after the operation and the kidnapping of la señora Ferguson, when Grant and Leon Ames enter the place. Ames greets a few of the men sitting there, but they get up to leave because they dislike Grant, as they assume he's received the kidnap note and operated anyway. Ames asks one of them (Garralaga) if they'd drink with them, and Garralaga replies, "Con ústed, sí. Con él, no," then goes on to explain that they have no respect for Grant because he operated without concern about the fate of his wife.

Martín Garralaga appeared in so many bit parts in so many films at this time he was almost a regular presence, especially at MGM.

I've been meaning to ask whether Zacharias Yaconelli was related to an actor named Frank Yaconelli. I kind of take it for granted as I doubt there was a passel of Yaconellis hanging around Hollywood in the 40s and 50s. Frank was in the 1940 sci-fi film Dr. Cyclops as one of the party of scientists and their guides shrunk to tiny size by Albert Dekker.

Right now TCM is midway through its 10-hour salute to Charlton Heston, and I'm happily typing this past 1 AM on the East Coast of America as the Chinese are launching another assault on the western compound in 55 Days at Peking. John Ireland just went around waking up soldiers of various nationalities, saying "Good morning" to them in their native languages until he reaches a Japanese soldier, to whom he merely smiles and says, in English, "Good morning," and in return receives a weary "Good morning" in English himself. Since you guys are nearing wake-up time just as I near bedtime, I leave you all with a hearty "Good morning."

Or, as John Ireland would have said earlier today in Japan, "Ohayo!"

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The ending of CRISIS really took me by surprise, it seemed so phony hob. Now that you've pointed out Martin Garralaga to me I'm going to watch it again, to see if I can dig out any other SOTI bit players.

If you read all this about Frank Yaconelli http://www.b-westerns.com/pals4a.htm it is most unlikely that he was related to Zacharias Yaconelli. They were both born around the same time, so I understand why you think they were related (apart from the unusual surname, of course), but Frank was Italian and Zack was Brazilian. I bought THREE COINS IN THE FOUNTAIN just to find out what Zacharias Yaconelli looks like, but no joy I'm afraid. He's listed as "Theatrical Ticket Agent" but there is no clear shot of his face - so he is another Man of Mystery from SECRET OF THE INCAS to me. THREE COINS IN THE FOUNTAIN was released in 1954, as was Zack's final movie SECRET OF THE INCAS, and he was only 58 at the time. I wonder why he quit appearing in movies at such an early age? he didn't die until 1976, in his birthplace, Sao Paulo, Brazil.

You watch 55 DAYS AT PEKING even more than I view SECRET OF THE INCAS, hob. I met that tough-looking bald guy Milton Reid who was in 55 DAP on Newark Road, Lincoln, England, in the 1980's. He was opening a new Euro Exhaust building. He wasn't the kind of guy who you would want to disagree with, hob. A nice bloke all the same though.


http://www.secretoftheincas.co.ukhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhSPcAyCgwE

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I'm very surprised you'd deem the ending of Crisis "phony", James. To me, it's not a description that would come to mind about it. In what way, do you think?

Anyone who bought Three Coins in the Fountain for the sole purpose of finding a basically irrelevant actor in an inconsequential role, just because he was in an inconsequential role in another movie, deserves what they got! A treacly, unbearable film. But I now know more Yaconelliana than I ever believed existed. I imagine Zacharias quit Hollywood because he wasn't exactly doing much actual acting, so why not go back to his nice native climate?

Actually, I don't watch 55 very much at all, James. Due to its absence on legitimate video I do try to see it on the few-and-far-between occasions it's broadcast.

But as to another SOTI cast member: the 1953 western Escape From Fort Bravo is on TCM at this moment, and in the opening credits I saw that its original story was co-written by Michael Pate. I haven't looked him up, but is this our Michale Pate? I haven't seen EFFB in quite a while and didn't remember this credit.

Addendum: I just looked up Escape From Fort Bravo on Wikipedia. It says the co-writer of the film's story (not the actual screenplay) was indeed the Michael Pate.

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I just looked at the ending of "Crisis" and I wouldn't classify it as 'phony' either. Sudden - yes - but not phony by a long shot.

James, you bought that grating garbage just to look at a bit-player from SOTI?
Boy, you sure have got it bad Jimbo! (only joking mate - don't throw a wobbly).

I found EFFB a bit dull. The only reason to watch it is to stare at that gorgeous creature Eleanor Parker.

"The internet is for lonely people. People should live." Charlton Heston

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Yes, Eleanor Parker was incredibly gorgeous. Of course, the next year she was also seen to fantastic advantage opposite Chuck H. in The Naked Jungle. Unhappily the jungle was the only thing we saw naked, but the idea was nice. (EP did have a sort-of nude scene in the 1966 film An American Dream with Stuart Whitman -- she was naked but you saw relatively little.) No offense, but she was much sexier and more beautiful than Nicole Maurey. Sad she passed away this past December 9 at 91.

EFFB took a while to get going but was pretty good. The confusion in calling William Demarest's character "Campbell" while he played opposite William Campbell is a bit annoying (like Ava Gardner playing a girl named Kelly while co-starring with Grace Kelly in Mogambo that same year, 1953), but otherwise it was good and showed a forgotten bit of American history.

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hob
I'm not far behind you now in the pyschic game. On Saturday afternoon I was in the pub with hundreds of other people watching the Grand National horse race (my bet was second!). Walking - not staggering - home from the pub my thoughts turned to my recently departed sister Tricia, who was hooked on horse racing and who really loved Grand National Day. I suddenly thought of how much she despised the film NATIONAL VELVET, and how she used to reel off everything that was wrong with the movie. I then started thinking about the scene when Mickey Rooney goes off to London with the money and all those ridiculous Cockney accents he encountered there, and I had a good laugh to myself. Well, you know the rest ... Mickey died soon after, after a long and colourful life.

I went to see Mickey Rooney and his last wife perform at the Palace Theatre, Newark, Nottinghamshire, on 16 June 2006 in LET'S PUT ON A SHOW. Newark is just a twenty minute car ride from Lincoln. Aged 85 then, Mickey sang, danced, played jazz on the piano, and along with some digitally-remastered clips from his old movies, reminisced about his illustrious career and very eventful personal life. He even did spot-on impersonations of Bogart, Lionel Barrymore and James Stewart. After showing a fully-thatched Mickey in an Andy Hardy movie, the now bald-as-an-egg Rooney quipped, "It used to take the make-up guys ten minutes to get my hair right ... now I can comb my hair with a sock!" (which broke me up).

Mickey got quite a few standing ovations, and even a big "Ooooh!" from the audience when revealing his father came from Glasgow, Scotland. A wonderful moment was the old pro singing live alongside film of Judy Garland which brought the house down. As soon as Mickey walked onto the stage there was a huge emotional tidal wave of nostalgic love in the theatre. Honestly, the atmosphere was electric!

After the show, Rooney signed the £10 programmes and sold a cd of the show. I bought those, and also asked him to sign some dvd covers from QUICKSAND, PULP, REQUIEM FOR A HEAVYWEIGHT, and my favourite, IT'S A MAD MAD MAD MAD WORLD. Sweating profusely, Rooney only quickly scrawled 'Mickey' on those - to get the full name you had to buy something off him!

My wife said, "Now I believe he's got Scottish blood!"

Oh, to mention SECRET OF THE INCAS, the movie played at the Palace Theatre in Newark in 1955, 51 years before I saw Rooney perform there. Here's a photo of the Palace from my SECRET OF THE INCAS website.
http://www.secretoftheincas.co.uk/page30.html

It's a really beautiful theatre in a lovely little English market town.



http://www.secretoftheincas.co.ukhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhSPcAyCgwE

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Is there anyone you haven't met Jimbo?

"The internet is for lonely people. People should live." Charlton Heston

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Os -- James never met Lionel Barrymore. Rudolph Valentino either.

James -- Well, my own psychic-ness was on full throttle again Sunday, twice. First I caught a glimpse of Ava Gardner (in Mogambo) as I was channel-surfing and immediately thought of how she'd gone to dinner with Mickey while filming The Killers, her first big break. They'd been divorced for three years and had a strained relationship but she needed help and knew no one else knew more about acting. Mickey gave her his advice on how to play her scenes, and afterward Ava took him to her home and bed as a thank-you. (I'd have given Ava my advice on her performance for that.) Anyway, of all the stuff about Ava that could have flipped into my mind, that's the story that came up.

A couple of hours later, a scene from It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World popped into my mind out of nowhere -- where they're on the side of the road before the chase begins, arguing about how to divide up the money -- but the only line that came into my mind, and repeated over and over, was Mickey saying to Sid Caesar, "Oh, you'd be happy with two-eighths instead of one-quarter?" I then thought of how Mickey was one of the few stars from the film left, since Caesar's death last month, and wondered how long he had to go at 93. Since that line wasn't really a highlight of the film, the fact that that's the one I thought of, and nothing else, struck me when I heard the news next day.

I gather Mickey's death was unexpected, that he'd been in pretty good shape just recently. I really hoped he'd go on at least a few more years. He was one of the last major links to the old studio system, and how many people in any walk of life can claim to have had a career that lasted over 90 years?! He was doing a movie at the time of his death and I hope he was able to finish enough of it for it to be released with him in it. But from what I read I'm worried that may not be the case.

I saw him on Broadway in "Sugar Babies" in the early 80s and he really was a force of nature. In fact, I recall I'd been thinking of something in that show two or three days before he died. Not quite the same as thinking of him when he was dying, but close. Mickey Rooney was hardly a constant subject of thought for me.

Incidentally, IAMMMMW came out from Criterion over here in January, in a massive 5-disc DVD/Blu-ray set with lots of extras. I assume you have sixty or so copies of that film too but this would certainly be the most complete version you would ever have. I saw the movie when it came out in November 1963. It was the week after the JFK assassination and I think that event helped make the film even more successful than it would have been. People needed something to laugh about, right, Os?

Imagine if it had premiered a week earlier and they had arrested LHO in a theater showing a movie called It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World! Talk about irony.

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My fav Mickey Rooney performance was in "Breakfast at Tiffany's" - he was so good as a Jap I thought it was Sessue Hayakawa for a moment! I wished he had played more foreigners, just imagine Mickey Rooney as Pachacutec in "Secret of the Incas" - it would be a cult classic now.

For the life of me I can't imagine Mickey and Ava together as man and wife. That's terrible casting!

hob, regarding IAMMMMW. It has FIVE DISCS OF EXTRAS!!!!!!
What on earth have they filled those discs with?

And why the hell don't Paramount release "Secret of the Incas" with five discs of extras?

"The internet is for lonely people. People should live." Charlton Heston

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No offense, but she was much sexier and more beautiful than Nicole Maurey

I don't think so hob. Nicole in "Secret of the Incas" is ravishing! I'm surprised her British boyfriend hasn't boxed your ears after saying that.
And speaking of James, did you know that "Don't Bother To Knock", starring two stars you've met, Nicole and Richard Todd, is being released on Region2 on 23 June? and it is only £7 25. I just read in the Rooney obituaries that he got nominated for an oscar in that film he made with Nicole, "The Bold and the Brave", so I'm thinking of getting it now. And you, James, are always praising it so it must be worth a look.
I wonder why her films with Bing Crosby have never been released?

"The internet is for lonely people. People should live." Charlton Heston

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Os -- to both your posts....

You like Mickey Rooney in Breakfast at Tiffany's?????!! Even in 1961 a lot of people found his performance embarrassing. Today...well, it would be enough to provoke another attack on Pearl Harbor. Even as a teenager (when I first saw it) I thought he was way over the top and utterly ridiculous. And I remember the usual racial stereotypes that prevailed in a lot of movies and on TV back in the 60s, that we didn't think much of at the time.

Of course, I'm not too fond of the movie anyway, which I always found unfunny and annoying, a big bag of nothing. The only thing I like about it now is the look at New York City at the beginning of the 60s, which was a pretty good time in this country. (Unless I were a black man in the South or a Japanese watching Mickey Rooney in Breakfast at Tiffany's.)

Yeah, Mickey and Ava. Hard to recall that at the time they wed, he was the biggest star in the world while she was completely unknown. He never did that well again. Every man who bedded her in the 40s and 50s said she had the most beautiful body of any woman they ever knew. And when you hear this from an incessant womanizer like Frank Sinatra, you know that takes in a lot of territory.

Paramount isn't releasing its library anymore, it's been farmed out to Warner, which so far is merely re-releasing titles Paramount long ago brought out. If SOTI ever gets an R1 issue it'll be a single-disc, no-frills release. And I'd settle for that!

But as for the Criterion edition of IAMMMMW, it's not five discs of extras; it's 5 discs in total, two DVDs and three Blu-rays, each of which contains the "general release" of the movie plus the complete film (including the portions deleted after its initial road show engagement) as well as the extras. Here's the copied-and-pasted description of contents from the Criterion website:

# Restored 4K digital film transfer of the general release version of the film, with 5.1 surround DTS-HD Master Audio soundtrack on the Blu-ray
# New high-definition digital transfer of a 197-minute extended version of the film, reconstructed and restored by Robert A. Harris using visual and audio material from the longer original road-show version—including some scenes that have been returned to the film here for the first time—with 5.1 surround DTS-HD Master Audio soundtrack on the Blu-ray
# New audio commentary featuring It’s a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World aficionados Mark Evanier, Michael Schlesinger, and Paul Scrabo
# New documentary on the film’s visual and sound effects, featuring interviews with visual-effects specialist Craig Barron and sound designer Ben Burtt
# Excerpt from a 1974 talk show hosted by director Stanley Kramer and featuring Mad World actors Sid Caesar, Buddy Hackett, and Jonathan Winters
# Press interview from 1963 featuring Kramer and cast members
# Excerpts about the influence of the film from the 2000 AFI program 100 Years . . . 100 Laughs
# Two-part 1963 episode of the TV program Telescope that follows the film’s press junket and premiere
# The Last 70mm Film Festival, a 2012 program featuring Mad World cast and crew, hosted by actor Billy Crystal
# Selection of humorist and voice-over artist Stan Freberg’s original TV and radio ads for the film, with a new introduction by Freberg
# Trailers and radio spots
# PLUS: A booklet featuring an essay by film critic Lou Lumenick and new illustrations by legendary cartoonist Jack Davis, along with a map of the shooting locations by artist Dave Woodman

It is, in short, a very big release. Beginning last November Criterion started to consolidate its DVD and Blu-ray releases into one dual-format edition, but now they're back to releasing some (not all) of their films in separate DVD editions, much cheaper but with fewer extras (which ordinarily don't mean much to me anyway). But IAMMMMW comes in the dual-format version only, and retails for $49.95, ten dollars higher than the standard Criterion release. But they're generally a great company.

Nicole was a good-looking woman and looks fine in SOTI but I wouldn't call her "ravishing" by a long shot. In any case she simply wasn't either as beautiful or as sexy as Eleanor Parker. So let James try to box my ears off! I'm very good at standing up to people an ocean away! Of course, when eventually we run into one another in Blighty I'll be prepared to hit the bricks quick if I get him riled up at the pub. So much for my defense of free speech.

Yes, Mickey did get an Oscar nom as Best Supporting Actor in 1956 for The Bold and the Brave; he lost to Anthony Quinn in Lust for Life. It was one of his four Oscar nominations, all, remarkably, unsuccessful, though he did get an honorary one in 1982, I believe. I bought the R2 DVD of that film on James's recommendation but I'm ashamed to say I've completely neglected to ever watch it! But I shall.

How many films did Bing make with his "discovery" Nicole? Only two, I think, the first being Little Boy Lost in 1953. Anyway, their other film, the 1960 comedy High Time, is available here (on Blu-ray only) from Twilight Time, the outfit that releases through SAE. I can no longer say "exclusively", because quite by accident last week I discovered that TT also lists its films with Movies Unlimited, same price -- in this case, $29.95. I've always found it a likable film and have it among my few Blu's. The good news for you is that, apart from its initial releases back in 2011, all TT discs are Region 0, so all you need is a Blu-ray player for your region to play them, not an R0 player.

Oh, one other thing, Os: You mentioned a 1961 film called Don't Bother to Knock with Nicole and Richard Todd. In America it was titled Why Bother to Knock?. I bring it up because I believe (from Leslie Halliwell) that the unrelated 1952 Hollywood film Don't Bother to Knock, with Marilyn Monroe, was known as in Britain Why Bother to Knock?. Curious how both sides swapped identical titles to avoid domestic confusion!

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That Marilyn Monroe film should be retitled to "Don't Bother to Watch" - what a turkey!
I guess it's a matter of personal choice hob, anyway, Eleanor and Nicole were both beautiful and sexy. Nicole made two movies each with Richard Todd and Bing Crosby, and by a horrible coincidence, the sons of both actors committed suicide. Really strange that. Bizarre question coming up - do you know of any other suicides connected with Nicole's co-stars?

"The internet is for lonely people. People should live." Charlton Heston

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In fact, two of Bing's four sons committed suicide. A third died a chronic alcoholic. Only one made it to the age of 65, the age at which Crosby had specified in his will each son would receive his share of his father's estate.

I thought I knew of one or two suicides connected with Nicole's co-stars. In checking up I found four, none as close as the suicide of a child. These are:

The Constant Husband (1955): Rex Harrison's ex-wife Rachel Roberts killed herself in 1980 after failing to win Rex back.

The Bold and the Brave (1956): Supporting actor Stanley Adams shot himself in 1977.

The Weapon (1957): Howard Rushmore, the writer for Confidential magazine who co-star Lizabeth Scott had sued for libel over false allegations about her sex life, killed himself and his wife (the magazine's publisher) in a taxi in New York.

The House of the Seven Hawks (1959): Robert Taylor's stepson (via his marriage to Ursula Theiss) died in 1969 of a drug overdose that might have been suicide.

Of course, SOTI's own Robert Young attempted suicide in 1991 by inhaling carbon monoxide gas from his running car in his garage, but was discovered and taken to hospital.

With the partial exception of Stanley Adams these are all pretty tangential. I'm sure you could find others just by the odds. No doubt when James sees this he'll run a computer search and discover suicides going back ten generations for everyone connected with all Nicole's films!

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Nicole Maurey's husband, Jacques Gallo, appeared in THE BUCCANEER with Heston, and two of the main actors in that film, Inger Stevens and Charles Boyer, committed suicide. Michael Boyer, the son of Charles, killed himself by playing Russian Roulette after a bad break up. Some actors who appeared with Heston whose children committed suicide are Marlon Brando (daughter Cheyenne), Gregory Peck (son Jonathan) and Carroll O'Connor (adopted son Hugh). The charioteer in THE TEN COMMANDMENTS, Richard Farnsworth, killed himself - he was also in ARROWHEAD. Another actor from ARROWHEAD, Brian Keith, decided to end it all after completing THE MOUNTAIN MEN, and that kid from THE PRIVATE WAR OF MAJOR BENSON, Tim Hovey, like so many child actors, died an early death, but Hovey topped himself with drugs.

Nicole Maurey was quite shocked when I told her that Bing Crosby's and Richard Todd's sons had committed suicide - she had no idea. She spoke very fondly of Bing and regarded him as her good luck charm. I asked her why.

I had just finished a picure with Robert Taylor, THE HOUSE OF THE SEVEN HAWKS, and was back home in Paris when the phone rang at 2 a.m. when I was in bed. A voice says, "Nicole, are you busy?" I answer that I am very busy sleeping and ask who it is. He says "Bing" and I wake up fast. He says, "Are you working now?" So I reply that I have just finished a movie and am as free as a bird. He tells me, "Everyone kept telling us here that you are tied up, so nobody called you. So, on a hunch, I telephoned. We want you for a movie with me. It starts in ten days and there is no time to send a script. Will you take my word it is a good picture and a good part for you and come right away?"

I tell Bing that I trust him and in three days I am in Hollywood, only knowing the title, HIGH TIME. I am not knowing if this is a costume picture, a modern story, or what. The producer and director groaned when they see me, and I am crushed. "You don't like me, I go back home!" but it is only my hair. They had seen me in ME AND THE COLONEL and THE JAYHAWKERS where my hair is light. But now I had returned to my natural hair colour which is blue-black. The picture will be in colour, and black hair won't do. I had been on a plane for 22 hours, but I go straight to wardrobe and they dress me and give me a make-up and hair-do and that night I made a screen test
.

Nicole revealed to me that the events leading to her big break and signing for LITTLE BOY LOST with Bing Crosby.

I had been in 14 pictures and eight plays in France and had never spoken a line of English in any of them when I met George Seaton in Paris. Seaton was to direct LITTLE BOY LOST and he offered me the role of Bing's wife after he had seen me in a play. But at that time I am offered a marvelous role in a stage play and I cannot make up my mind which I will do. While I am still puzzling, I am called to the theatre to go through a scene with an actor being considered for the lead. On the way to the theatre, I found a nail. Now we have a superstition in France among actors that to find a nail means a contract. But I still don't know which one to do, the movie or the play.

At the theatre we rehearse a comedy scene where I hit the hero over the head with a vase, mistaking him for a kidnapper. So when I pretend to hit him over the head, I want to make a sound like a blow and I say "Bing." The actor entered into the fun and reeling around the stage, he said "Crosby." So I decided that this is too much of a coincidence - that it is a good-luck omen. So I leave the play and make LITTLE BOY LOST. Bing told everyone on the HIGH TIME set that, when I was asked during LITTLE BOY LOST how I like it in America I always replied, "I am verry 'appy 'ere". Bing always called me "The Happy Ham" after that
.

I didn't put this in my interview with Nicole http://www.secretoftheincas.co.uk/page24.html because of space reasons. As you can read in that - Nicole is a very superstitious person.

Hob, despite all his faults, Nicole really warmed to Crosby, and regarded him as her good luck charm.

http://www.secretoftheincas.co.ukhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhSPcAyCgwE

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What did I tell, you, Os? The James suicide watch! Byrne, baby, Byrne!

Of course, now we're onto people who worked with Heston who killed themselves, which is getting farther and farther afield, into six-degrees-of-separation territory. On which:

In his last years Charles Boyer and his wife lived in Paradise Valley, Arizona, a small but exclusive enclave now wedged between Phoenix and Scottsdale. My grandparents moved there in 1956 (when it was mostly open desert in an unincorporated area outside of Phoenix), and except for the period from 1959-1963, when they moved literally just around the corner to the west side of Camelback Mountain, inside Phoenix proper, they resided in Paradise Valley until they died in 1985 and 1990.

Anyway, during the 70s they made the acquaintance of the Boyers, who lived not far from their house. (PV is pretty small in area.) They'd see them at occasional parties or other gatherings. I'm writing the dates from memory, but as I recall Boyer's wife died on August 24, 1978, and Charles committed suicide on the 26th -- two days shy of his birthday. I think he wanted to be buried with her but you'd think he would make sure everything for her was taken care of first. And he could have waited until his birthday to do it. Few actors have died on their birthdays.

Speaking of which, James, I recall you had a small go-round with Nicole over her DOB, you stating it was December 20, 1925, and she insisting she was born in 1926 -- December 20, I presume. "I think I know my own birthday, James!" I believe you said she said. But every site I've seen still says 1925. What do you think is the doleful truth? Truthfully.

You've reported on NM's attitude toward Bing several times before and I've no doubt he was generous to her. None of that, of course, is relevant to his demonstrable, on-the-record cruelty to his own family or serial philandering for most of his life. Even his second wife and their kids, whom he treated very differently (partly apparently due to Kathy's caution and strength) said after his death that they believed Bing had treated his first wife and their four sons very badly. All of which I've reported before. So there's no contradiction here, only a reaffirmation of the fact that people have many sides to them and can present one side to some people and another to others.

Incidentally, when did Nicole learn to speak English? Did George Seaton specifically go to see her on stage in Paris or did he just happen to be at the theater that night? Did he know beforehand that she spoke English (as seems likely, if he went to see her), and how did she come to his attention? Because they needed a French actress fluent in the language? I can't believe he just happened to be in Paris, went to see a play in a foreign language (I don't know whether he spoke French) and happened to catch her performance, though such things have certainly happened...of course, usually domestically.

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Incidentally, when did Nicole learn to speak English? Did George Seaton specifically go to see her on stage in Paris or did he just happen to be at the theater that night? Did he know beforehand that she spoke English (as seems likely, if he went to see her), and how did she come to his attention? Because they needed a French actress fluent in the language? I can't believe he just happened to be in Paris, went to see a play in a foreign language (I don't know whether he spoke French) and happened to catch her performance, though such things have certainly happened...of course, usually domestically.

hob
Nicole Maurey could speak pigeon English at the time Seaton saw her in the play. She told me he was already in Paris scouting locations for LITTLE BOY LOST and loved her performance in the play, and decided there and then that he wanted her for the part of Crosby's wife.

She was definetely born on 20 December 1926, hob, that was one of the first things I asked her. She wasn't mad at me, she thought it was silly of the publicity department to change it to 1925. In French interviews she always stated that it was 1926 as well.

Another SECRET OF THE INCAS actress, Glenda Farrell, always had the wrong birthday published by the IMDb and movie books until very recently. Every biography used to state that she was born in Enid, Oklahoma on a date typically reported to be June 30, 1904, but the research of Hardwicke Benthow points to that date actually coming a few years earlier, in 1901. The 1920 and 1940 censuses appear to confirm the 1901 year as being the correct one.



http://www.secretoftheincas.co.ukhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhSPcAyCgwE

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Biographies were always getting Heston's birth date wrong too. They always listed his year of birth as 1924 - even the New York Times gave this year when Heston died. And how about Yma Sumac? her birth date is still a mystery.

"The internet is for lonely people. People should live." Charlton Heston

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Not surprising that Glenda Farrell's b'd was wrong. This was of course quite common.

In a few instances the studios actually made a performer older for certain, shall we say, "considerations". Fox changed Linda Darnell's birth year to 1921 from its actual 1923 because she was only 16 when they began starring her as a wife, lover and girlfriend, and there were one or two statutory rape laws around. Similarly, Alice Faye added three years to her age so she could get work as a chorus girl at 13 (born May 5, 1915 vs. her faked May 5, 1912).

But how do you know that NM was born December 20, 1926? Have you looked it up and definitely ascertained it? Or are you simply taking Nicole's word for it? And why would anyone want to make her a year older? It's not as if she was 15 and they wanted to make her 16 so she'd be more "acceptable" in romantic parts. For most of 1953 she was, allegedly, 26 going on 27. Why make her a year older? Younger might make sense, but not older. Or was 1925 simply a studio error no one ever corrected?

Yes, Heston's DOB was always in conflict between 1923 and 1924. Such issues have always popped up, though more often with actors than actresses. I didn't know Yma's DOB was in dispute, but again, no real surprise.

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But how do you know that NM was born December 20, 1926? Have you looked it up and definitely ascertained it? Or are you simply taking Nicole's word for it?

Yes, hob, I'm taking Nicole's word for it. What reason would she have to lie to me? I got the impression that she found the whole Hollywood set-up to be fake and ridiculous. The changing of her birth year, the endless poses in silly positions, the fact that they didn't want her when she was in town - but phoned her immediately she flew back to Paris, etc. etc.
Nicole is a level-headed lady, she calls a spade a spade,and seems to be a decent, honest and very respectable lady. There is no doubt in my mind that she was born on 20 December 1926, hob.

http://www.secretoftheincas.co.ukhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhSPcAyCgwE

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James, in view of all the arrests over here recently after all the Jimmy Savile abuses case - I'm shocked to discover that Moises Vivanco married Yma Sumac when she was just thirteen!

"The internet is for lonely people. People should live." Charlton Heston

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Yeah, Os, but you know, in Peru back then Yma's nickname was The Old Maid.

James, I assume NM is being truthful when she says she was born in 1926 but I'd get busy trying to correct the record. Of course, I've only seen English-language sources, which would take their cues from Hollywood. I'm sure there's a French index of stage and screen players that might have her correct DOB. Since it seems to make no sense for Paramount to have deliberately raised her age, I can only assume the change to 1925 was a miscommunication. Just odd she never seems to have attempted to correct it.

Oh, Os, about this bloke Jimmy Savile: Of course, no one over here ever heard of him or this scandal (we have plenty of our own, 100% American pedophiles, thank you), but when I was last there the scandal was in full swing and my wife filled me in on all the details. She told me that while the truth was beginning to emerge just before his death it was quashed because he'd gotten a lifetime achievement award for his fund-raising for charity. She also said, based on her years working at the BBC, that every producer and most others there knew exactly what he was but conspired to keep it quiet because he could raise all this money. (She added she never liked him and always found him a "deeply weird creep" with a mother fetish, and from what little I've seen that would be my reaction.) But it's really pretty cynical and terrible that so many people would conspire to keep a child molester in business just because he could fund-raise so energetically. "Thanks for the cash, here's a gaggle of boys for you." Too bad he didn't end his days being exposed for the predatory psychopath he was. Of course, after he kicked the bucket everybody piled on about how rotten he was. What courage!

PS: Catherine just told me she met him several times at BBC staff parties and didn't like him from those encounters. I told her at least she was safe from any predatory moves on his part and she said yes, that was one thing she never worried about when she ran into him. But she reaffirmed that everyone at the Beeb knew about him and that most disliked and mistrusted him. I gather the fact that he was a Radio 1 DJ added to his particular unpopularity because all of them were disliked by other BBC employees!

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The trouble with the Savile case is that the police then arrested loads of other celebrities because of 'abuse' that supposedly happened in the 1960s and 70s. Only one, Stuart Hall, has been convicted, and the others were found not guilty but their reputations in pieces.

Yma Sumac may have been under-age but at least Moises Vivanco wasn't related to her. In America you had Jerry Lee Lewis marrying his underage cousin, hob!

"The internet is for lonely people. People should live." Charlton Heston

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Well, those arrests are typical of human behavior, no? Ignore something, sweep it under the rug for years, then when it breaks open everyone goes overboard in the other direction. If they'd stopped this pig in the first place instead of looking the other way at his crimes just because the people who knew and employed him were so cowardly and dishonest as to keep quiet about his behavior, and the public at large was so stupid that they'd blindly follow anything this creep said, then you wouldn't have the mindless rampage you got. This happens everywhere in human affairs.

True about Jerry Lee Lewis. Myra was his third wife and first cousin once removed, and 13 when they married. (He tried to claim she was 15.) The familial relationship was far enough apart to be legal but of course the age was illegal. Apparently it was a British reporter who got tipped to the marriage when Lewis arrived in London for a concert tour in 1958, and when he broke the news the tour was canceled, his associates in the States deserted him, his concerts and contracts were canceled and what gigs he could get paid him only $250 instead of his previous $10,000.

I went over to wikipedia to look up his marital record because I knew he'd been married many times. Here's the section about his marriages and children, which I reprint because it's pretty amazing and, in parts, quite tragic:

Family[edit]

Lewis has been married seven times:[19]

His first marriage, to Dorothy Barton, lasted for 20 months, from February 1952 to October 1953 (although there is a possibility that Lewis may have married Barton earlier than 1952). In a 1978 People magazine interview, Lewis stated "I was 14 when I first got married. My wife was too old for me; she was 17."[20]

His second marriage, to Jane Mitchum, was of dubious validity because it occurred 23 days before his divorce from Barton was final. It lasted for four years, from September 1953 to October 1957. The couple had two children: Jerry Lee Lewis Jr. (1954–1973) and Ronnie Guy Lewis (b. 1956).

His third marriage, to Myra Gale Brown, lasted for 13 years, from December 1957 to December 1970 (although the couple went through a second marriage ceremony because his divorce from Jane Mitchum was not complete before the first ceremony took place). They had two children together: Steve Allen Lewis (1959–1962) and Phoebe Allen Lewis (b. 1963).

His fourth marriage, to Jaren Elizabeth Gunn Pate, lasted from October 1971 to June 8, 1982, producing one child, a daughter, Lori Lee Lewis (b. 1972), and ending several weeks before divorce proceedings could be finalized when Pate drowned in a swimming pool at the home of a friend with whom she was staying.[21]

His fifth marriage, to Shawn Stephens, lasted 77 days, from June to August 1983, ending with her death.[22] It has been alleged that Lewis abused her and was responsible for her death.[23]

His sixth marriage, to Kerrie McCarver, lasted 20 years, from 1984 to 2004. They have one child: Jerry Lee Lewis III (b. 1987). According to USA Today, McCarver's divorce settlement was substantial.[24]

His seventh marriage, to Judith Brown, began March 9, 2012.[19]

Lewis has had at least six children during his marriages (two additional people have claimed to be his children, but they had no proof).[citation needed] In 1962, his son Steve Allen Lewis drowned in a swimming pool accident when he was three, and in 1973, Jerry Lee Lewis, Jr. died at the age of 19[20][25] when he overturned the Jeep he was driving.[20] Two of his four surviving children are sons, Jerry Lee Lewis III, Ronnie Guy Lewis, and two daughters Phoebe Allen Lewis and Lori Lee Lewis.

Two sons dead at ages 3 and 19, and two wives dead while still married -- not to mention one son and one wife each died by drowning in a swimming pool. And he may have been responsible for the other wife's death? I wonder if he was investigated.

Anyway, I'm sure you could find lots of similar marital fiddling among both the anonymous and the famous in the UK too...and everywhere else.

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Jerry Lee Lewis makes Jimmy Savile look normal, hob!
America is a great country .... but it sure has it's fair share of loonies, crackpots, pedos, pyschos, assassins, drugged-up celebrities, crooked politicians, perverts and obese monsters bullying alzheimers victims.
What a country hob!

"The internet is for lonely people. People should live." Charlton Heston

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What do you mean, America has "its fair share" of those types? I'll have you know we have more than our fair share!!! America is NUMBER ONE!!!!



USA! USA! USA! USA!

(This is the 100th reply on this board. Thank you, Os. After typing that line I deserve it!)

I take it that last example of humanity you cited is that guy in Ohio who was made to sit on the sidewalk holding a sign saying he was a bully who attacked disabled people and so on? He says the judge who sentenced him has "ruined his life". Uh-huh. He also got jail time, a fine, and had to write a letter of apology. Personally, I would have just hired one of our abundant lunatics to drive by and shoot him as he sat by the curb.

Of course, the crazies always make the news in any country, not so? Overall we're not as bad over here as you'd think from reading about or watching the news. You Brits have always looked down on us Yanks with a bit of bemused condescension, patting your idiot cousins on the head, and I still see and hear it all over UK TV and radio. It is interesting for me, as a foreigner when I'm in in your country, to read news coverage of America and see what's accurate and what's not. A lot really isn't, very. Still, I love Britain, and the British. Heck, I married one!

Oh, and not to defend Jerry Lee Lewis, a man about whom I care nothing, but marrying a consenting 13-year-old girl is still better than molesting dozens of unwilling, underage boys. JLL stayed with her for 13 years, had two children (one of whom died at 3) and suffered enormous professional and public consequences for his transgression. And no one was complicit in his "sins". Not quite the same as having people in positions of responsibility cover up and facilitate the criminal activity of a slobbering, disgusting pedophile, just so they can have him raise more money. Not to mention his receiving awards and encomiums from across the country, up to and including the Monarch, even as he's abusing children and scarring them for life -- and all of this not only known by those working with him, but allowed to continue, unchecked and unstopped, for decades.

Sorry, Os. In the moral firmament, Savile is hundreds of times worse, a useless piece of human garbage. His corpse should be dug up, spat on by his victims, torn apart, then scattered and dumped in manure piles all over Great Britain. Perhaps the only people worse are those who could have stopped him but chose to let his depredations go on, for the phoniest and most rationalized of reasons.

See? I can be as savage as the next American!

-- Charlton Heston, The Savage (1952).

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It is unfortunate that I share the same birthday as Jerry Lee Lewis!

America is also a place that lets White Supremists run for office. A former Ku Klux Klan boss has just been charged with the murder of three people who were shot dead outside Jewish centres in Kansas City, Missouri. Frazier Glenn Cross was described by human rights groups as a "raging anti-semite" who had posted online rantings that included: "No Jews, Just Right." Witnesses said Cross, who twice ran for office in the US on a white power platform, shouted "heil Hitler" as police drove him away in handcuff's after Sunday's shootings.

On Thursday 31 January 1952 THE GREATEST SHOW ON EARTH premiered at the Florida Theater, Sarasota. Before the screening, a parade led by Florida's Governor Fuller Warren and Emmett Kelly entertained the 50,000 crowd who lined Main Street. Warren was a Klan man who, in 1949, was forced to publicly slate them because a preacher was going to name Warren as a Klan member.

I cannot, for the life of me, imagine the British public voting in droves for such a despicable human being as Fuller Warren.

http://www.secretoftheincas.co.ukhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhSPcAyCgwE

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James, we had something worse than that Warren bloke - remember Cyril Smith?

Was Fuller Warren related to Earl Warren? Its certainly possible, if Elvis was related to every single American President (except Obama)!

"The internet is for lonely people. People should live." Charlton Heston

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First to you, Os. Fuller Warren was no relation to Earl Warren, although their respective terms as the governors of Florida (1949-1953) and California (1943-1953) overlapped in part. Warren isn't an uncommon name, of course.

But I confess to not knowing who Cyril Smith was.

James, a little more information on your part would be useful. First, though I had only a very general idea of Fuller Warren, I went over to his page on wikipedia and read it, along with a couple of brief pieces on other sites. Here is the link to the wikipedia page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuller_Warren

Warren had once been a Klan member, as had a number of politicians who later renounced the organization, most notably the late Senator Robert Byrd of West Virginia. By the time he was elected Governor in 1948 he was long since out of the KKK. As Governor, he introduced several pieces of anti-Klan legislation. He got into political trouble over illegal gambling issues but these had nothing to do with the Klan.

It must be remembered that the South at this time was a one-party conservative Democratic bastion (a legacy of the Civil War) and that, in the segregated mindset of that era generally and that region in particular, a lot of politicians ran on racist or at least segregationist platforms to get elected. The wiki article states that Warren himself, though relatively moderate on race, ran for Governor again in 1956 on a segregationist platform and lost. (His victorious opponent, Le Roy Collins, was about as liberal on race as one could be in that place and period.) Warren was no worse and a lot better than many other of his contemporary politicians.

None of this justifies or mitigates his KKK membership but things do need to be seen in their contexts. In any case, there is no justification for calling him "despicable", especially since you really know nothing about him.

As for America's racial problems (past and present), God knows they're many and out in the open for all to see. But don't get too smug or lofty about the supposed superior level of racial tolerance in Britain. Historically Britain and the British have been notoriously racist, as the history of your colonial rule in India, Africa and elsewhere manifestly attests. And for all the modern-day propaganda I've seen in the UK about multiracial Britain, with half the ads in train stations, TV, newspapers, magazines and so on showing happy interracial couples, the fact is that these number relatively few. Most Britons are white and while multiracial societies are more and more common everywhere, the United States is much more so than anyplace in Europe.

As to Mr. Frazier Cross (a true intellect to come up with an alias as clever for a Klansman as "Cross"), yes, he ran for office twice in Missouri. I heard about one of those races just this evening. He ran for the U.S. Senate in 2010. Out of a total of approximately 2,300,000 votes cast he received 7. Not 7 percent. Seven votes. His other race (I believe in 2008 for Governor) was equally successful.

And why do we allow white supremacists to run for office? It's a little thing called the Constitution. In America even fanatical lunatics have the right to seek and hold public office. In short, it's an exercise in freedom. What would you do? Have someone arbitrarily decide who could and couldn't run for office based on your opinion of their views? Do you ban members of the BNP (your kloset Klan) from running? Who was it that elected Enoch Powell, for one? Brits in 2014 might not vote for a segregationist candidate out of 1948 but back in 1948 they very well might have done. We've had (and still have) too many people trying to curtail others' rights without trying to proscribe who can and can't seek office in this imperfect democracy.

By the way, we've had Klansmen, even an American Nazi, win nominations for office of one of the two main parties even in recent decades, well after the civil rights era. Back in the late 70s the head of the California KKK won the Democratic nomination for a U.S. House seat in the southern part of the state; he had filed at the last minute in a heavily Republican district the Democrats hadn't planned to contest. After he got the nomination the Democrats renounced him and endorsed the Republican incumbent. Similarly, an American Nazi won a Republican House nomination in Michigan in 1978 (the party renounced him), and in 1991 the former national head of the KKK won the Republican nomination for Governor of Louisiana. But in that case, while some Republicans (including Ronald Reagan) denounced him, none of them actually endorsed the Democratic candidate (a former Governor, who won), and many state Republicans still supported the Klansman, who wound up with 39% of the vote. There have been a few other such examples, but the era of Klansman, open or covert, actually winning office has long since vanished.

One final thought: if American racist candidates bother you so much you should take great exception to your friend Charlton Heston's campaigning three times for Senator Jesse Helms in North Carolina (in 1984, 1990 and 1996, the last two times against a black candidate). His other extremism aside, Helms was a member of the racist White Citizens' Council in the 50s and 60s, always had the support of the Klan and other white supremacist groups (including Mr. Cross, when he lived in North Carolina into the late 80s), was campaign manager for a notoriously racist candidate for Governor in 1960 and 1964, opposed Henry Kissinger's being named Secretary of State because he was Jewish, remained an opponent of integration and the Civil Rights Act all his life, ran explicitly racist ads against his black opponent in his last two elections, and never renounced or modified his racist statements or sentiments. Yet Heston, who so loudly proclaimed his having been at the March on Washington in 1963, happily and repeatedly endorsed and campaigned across the state for Helms twenty and more years later.

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hob
I'm sure Heston only backed Helms because of the imminent danger of communist uprisings in Central America, or something like that.

On 28 Jan 1949 the KKK staged a 43-car parade through the Florida capital, Tallahassee. A brand new station wagon carrying an electrically lighted cross and two Klan flags headed the procession.
"The hooded hoodlums and sheeted jerks who paraded the streets of Tallahassee last night made a disgusting and alarming spectacle, " Warren said. "These covered cowards, who call themselves Klansmen, quite obviously have set out to terrorize minority groups in Florida as they have in a near-by state."

That inspirational little speech by Warren would have leant more weight to the proceedings if Warren himself hadn't been a prominent member of the Klan!

Some said the governor was only beating to the punch a Jacksonville preacher who had served notice he was going to tell out loud that he was in the Klan with Warren. Others stated that Warren was Klan through and through till the day he died.

And, yes hob, we got our fair share of scum over here as well. In the general election of 1964, Patrick Gordon Walker was confidently expected to win the inner Birmingham seat of Smethwick and, in the event of a national Labour victory, go on to be Harold Wilson's foreign secretary.
But Gordon Walker did not win. He was sensationally defeated by a Tory nonentity, Peter Griffiths, whose campaign featured the infamous 10-word slogan: "If you want a nlgger for a neighbour, vote Labour."

I'm not forgetting the obese pervert Cyril Smith either, Os. He's in the paper every week since Savilgate.

When my father came to England from Ireland in the 1940's he couldn't even find anywhere to live. He used to tell me the story about the lodging houses with signs in the window - "No nlggers, no dogs, no Irish." He complained that the dogs even took precedence over the Irish!
I thought he was over-dramatizing things until I saw a documentary last year on the black population of England, and there it was - on film - that sign my dad was always on about when I was a kid.

Racism is everywhere hob.



http://www.secretoftheincas.co.ukhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhSPcAyCgwE

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hob - the obese monster who bullies alzheimers victims I was actually referring to is none other than Michael Moore. What that super-sized scum did to Heston was really below the belt. You might slag off our racists over here but at least Combat 18 did do some good in 2003. Moore made some outrageous racist comments at the Roundhouse in London that if all the passengers on those 9/11 planes were black men and skinheads then the terrorists would have been overcome. Combat 18, the British neo-nazi group then issued a statement saying that Moore would be shot for saying something as stupid as that. Moore bravely high-tailed it out of the country the next day. Say what you like about Combat 18, but at least they got rid of that ugly, sweaty, ogre Michael Moore from our green and pleasent land.
ps, hob, what's Moore up to nowadays?

"The internet is for lonely people. People should live." Charlton Heston

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Moore is now selling doughnuts somewhere in Michigan, Os!

http://www.secretoftheincas.co.ukhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhSPcAyCgwE

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But in that case, while some Republicans (including Ronald Reagan) denounced him, none of them actually endorsed the Democratic candidate (a former Governor, who won),


A former governor, who just so the record is kept straight, was a crook of the first order and who went to jail for ten years on racketeering charges after he was governor a second time, so while it was important to denounce David Duke, there was no need for anyone in the GOP to openly endorse Edwin Edwards (who now, demonstrating again his total lack of hubris, wants to run for office again after he's been in jail). Never has there been a two-way contest where "None of the Above" should have been an option.

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Yep, Edwin Edwards was a crook. No one defends him on that. What he was not, Eric, was a racist and Holocaust denier who incited hate and in later years showed up in Tehran as a guest of President Akhmadinijad (sp.?), and who despite his virulent racism still won the support of the majority of Louisiana Republican officials and was not renounced by the state party as a whole.

And yes, it was necessary for the Republicans to go the extra step and endorse Edwards, even with caveats about holding your nose, the lesser of two evils, and so on. Once again, Eric, you attempt to sideline the real issue with a largely irrelevant one. Or do you equate a politician who enriches himself in office (yes, bad and jail-worthy) with one who if he had his druthers would seek the extermination of whole races? The Republicans in Michigan in 1978 (I think it was the 17th CD but may be wrong) who saw their nomination go to a Nazi endorsed the Democrat. That same year in an adjacent CD the GOP nomination was won by a mental patient with the same name as the Oakland County DA; the Republicans renounced him and endorsed the Democrat. And yet again in 1978, after the death of Maryland's 6th District Democratic incumbent Rep. Goodloe Byron during the campaign, and his wife being named in his place, the mentally deranged man who had won the GOP nomination and tried to disrupt the funeral was renounced by the state Republican Party (they had not previously done so), which then endorsed the Democrat. The Democrats in southern California who saw their CD's nomination go to a Klansman endorsed the Republican. There is an issue of priorities in such things.

And by the way, Edwards had not yet been indicted or, obviously, imprisoned in 1991, when he won against Duke, so that couldn't have been an issue then. Just to keep the record straight.

By the way, about your last two lines:

Edwin Edwards (who now, demonstrating again his total lack of hubris, wants to run for office again after he's been in jail). Never has there been a two-way contest where "None of the Above" should have been an option.


I assume you meant, first, that Edwards is "demonstrating again his hubris", not his "total lack" thereof. Similarly, I presume your last sentence was meant to have read something like, "Never has there been a two-way contest where 'None of the Above' was more deserving to be an option," or words to that effect. What you wrote says that "None of the Above" should never be an option.

I can think of many worse two-way contests that deserved that option. Edwin Edwards, whatever his failings, was an able Governor, which, his racism and hatred aside, David Duke did not have the brains or talent to be.

And so what about hubris? Most politicians have it to some degree. Mark Sanford in SC has it in abundance, and I'm sure you supported him last year.

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Os, never heard of Combat 18, but it sounds like our neo-Nazi and white supremacist groups here. They don't have a lot of members overall but I believe they number in the hundreds, and make up for their small numbers by stockpiling heavy arsenals. When the Department of Homeland Security tried to list such groups as possible threats the Tea Partiers and other Republicans in Congress were outraged and demanded that DHS stop such inquiries. The other day I read figures on political murders in this country since 9/11. The number ascribed to domestic Muslim or pro-Islamist extremists was something like 28. The number committed by right-wing domestic groups was 44. Of course, these figures don't include earlier right-wing murder sprees suck as Oklahoma City in 1995. (September 11 was a foreign attack.)

I know you hate Michael Moore and so do I (for varied reasons), but believe me, the price of ridding him from the UK -- and how long would he have stayed anyway -- by passively allowing a bunch of fascistic thugs to threaten him isn't worth the cost to democracy.

James:

First, Warren was not a member of the Klan when he became Governor. If he had been he wouldn't have denounced them. You wouldn't have lost points in the South in 1949 for being silent on the KKK, or even (at least in some places) supporting it. Warren's record on being anti-Klan as Governor is clear. This doesn't excuse segregationist beliefs -- hardly unique in those days -- nor his former membership in the KKK but one needs to deal with facts, and the fact is that Warren was not a Klan member when he was elected Governor, had not been one for years, repeatedly denounced the Klan while Governor, and passed several pieces of legislation designed to curb Klan activities in Florida. Whatever his faults, at least he evolved away from the Klan.

As for Heston, no, he did not endorse Helms because of imminent Communist uprisings in Latin America or any other imaginary reason. No doubt he agreed with Helms's hardline stance against 1980s regimes in places like Nicaragua and Grenada. So did I, more or less; I always supported aid to the Contras (though not the Iran-Contra fiasco approved by Reagan), support for the El Salvador government against Red insurgents, and the invasion of Grenada after the pro-Cuban coup that killed the island's socialist, incompetent but naive PM. But no one forced Heston to travel to NC and campaign for Helms so effusively. He could have said, "I agree with your anti-Communism but your racial beliefs are inimical to mine so I cannot in good conscience endorse you." You endorse the whole package; you don't get to say I want this part of the guy elected but not that part. Charlton Heston exhibited not the slightest hesitation in campaigning for one of the last white supremacists in Congress, one who never disavowed his racist beliefs, something even people like Strom Thurmond and George Wallace did. Sorry, but no matter how much you squirm and rationalize, you can't get Heston off the hook on this one. Deal with it.

If you're looking for despicable acts, Heston's re Helms truly fit that bill, because he knew better.

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Actually hob, I mentioned Edwards demonstrating his hubris specifically because you had referenced Sanford before. And I stand foursquare among those who feel Sanford had to quit as governor for disgracing the office and said so at the time, but I will say that a person who publicly acknowledges his sin and asks for forgiveness is demonstrating a lot better the precepts of what should be done in that circumstance than Edwin Edwards ever did (or Elliot Spitzer for that matter, who decided that being a sleaze of the first order should be a launching point for a lucrative career as a talking head). The voters in Sanford's district I think can also not be blamed for not wanting Stephen Colbert's sister to represent them.

Edwards had already gone through a series of ethical problems before, and in fact his slogan in 1991 was "vote for the crook". When this is the alternative being served up at the time, it's going to cause a lot of awkwardness in the minds of some people and while Duke was indeed a racist phony whose efforts at rehabilitating his image were phony (we need to remember the image he was trying project at the time which was trying to make it sound like he had renounced that KKK extremism. I acknowledge he hadn't in his mind, but again, the context should not make us think that at that time he was running on his KKK platform) my point is I simply can not condemn so easily a rank and file GOP voter as someone who is an automatic racist just because he decided he didn't want the crook who turned into a crook of the worst kind again once he got the power all over again (a governor who ends up going to jail for ten years on racketeering charges is not someone who can ever be called "able". If we don't allow that context to be known and not mention what kind of person Edwin Edwards was and still is (your characterization of the choice in that race without mentioning who Edwards was, practically leaves the impression that some well-respected former Governor who should have been a slam dunk without question) then I think the danger is to leave a misleading impression regarding what was in the hearts and minds of GOP voters in LA at the time. I'm sure there were racists who did gladly vote for Duke, but the Democrats didn't do their job and find someone with any right to claim higher moral authority to be leader of the state. "None Of The Above" should have been the write-in option there because neither had the moral high ground or the moral authority to be entrusted with the power.

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Eric, do you really believe Sanford "acknowledged" his sin, was genuinely repentant and sincerely asked for forgiveness? I don't wish to be offensive to you as a friend, but are you really that naïve?

Sanford only "acknowledged" it when he was caught, after days of lies and denials, solely to remain in office and, eventually, to seek office again. Ask his now ex-wife of she thinks he is sincere. This is typical of the kind of dishonest, manipulative and yes hubristic public figures I've been talking about on the TBYOOL site: people who make repeated claims to being just so personally pious and, quite literally, holier than thou, then turn around and use their position to steal, cheat, and lie, who when caught make tearful "confessions", beg forgiveness, announce they have indeed received a divine get-out-of-jail-free card, and go right back to their positions of power where they continue their impious ways.

And yes I can blame the voters of the 1st district for sending this lying jerk back to Congress. You asked why the Dems in Louisiana couldn't have found a better candidate than Edwin Edwards in 1991. Why couldn't Republicans find a better one than Mark Sanford in 2013? Of course Stephen Colbert's sister would have been a far better person to represent the district than a hypocritical and mendacious fool (whom even most Republicans regard as having been an incompetent governor, just as his House colleagues regarded him as a bad Congressman during his first stretch in the HR).

There are few things more despicable than someone who cynically preys upon other people's legitimate faith in order to get out of ethical trouble and avoid paying the consequences of their violations of trust. It's phony and oh so wonderfully convenient. And events have demonstrated that this tactic is pretty much the preserve of Republicans these days. Democrats don't normally go around flaunting their faith, real or hyped. Lots of Republicans do. This doubles their culpability. A politician who commits crimes or cheats in office but who never campaigned on his alleged religious faith has at least one less strike against him than one who did proclaim himself a paragon of morality, gets caught, then turns around and to salvage his career -- the only thing he actually cares about -- proclaims himself forgiven by the terms of the very faith he had so cheerfully slapped in the face.

Eliot Spitzer got caught and resigned. So did most other Democrats who were caught in some moral, ethical or legal lapse. Republicans, not so much (though some have). God, after all, has forgiven them, so no need for them to face any earthbound consequences. David Vitter committed the exact same crime/sin as Spitzer; oh, but he sought and magically received "forgiveness" from the Lord, so he didn't have to leave office. Jon English of Nevada got caught not only in a moral lapse but a crime and resisted calls for him to resign for two years, until he was about to finally face Senate condemnation and a criminal trial, whereupon he quit to save his pension. Meanwhile, of course, God had gotten around to granting him forgiveness too.

And just to avoid being labeled a "mindless" partisan, in general I think House Republicans do a good job in pressuring deviant congressmen on their side of the aisle to quit when they've committed crimes or have major ethical problems. The Democrats have a bad record on this, to their shame. By contrast, Senate Republicans noticeably fail on this score. And of course even in the House no action was taken against Joe Wilson of SC when he publicly called the President of the United States a liar during the State of the Union address. If a Democrat had done that to Bush or Reagan you can be sure Republicans (you included) would have been calling for his scalp. Instead, Wilson makes an insincere apology and suffers no consequence other than seeing his fund-raising suddenly explode with contributions. Somehow I can't quite see that happening in the Republican Party of 50 years ago.

Given a choice between someone who has openly admitted his misdeeds and a racist liar I would without hesitation choose the former. ("None of the Above" is cute but solves nothing.) Sure, it would have been nicer if the Dems had fielded a better candidate in Louisiana in 1991 (it would have been nicer if the Reps had too, but they dumped the incumbent in the primary), but that doesn't mean there wasn't a significant choice. David Duke was much more than a "phony". Everyone knew exactly who and what he was. I never said or implied, as you claimed, that everyone who voted for Duke in 1991 was an "automatic racist"; but since you brought it up, I'm sure most of them were. They certainly weren't racially enlightened. There are certain lines beyond which any semblance of respectability or even rationalization vanish and voting for a former Klan leader (who was no longer formally in the Klan solely because he wanted to seek office) under any circumstances is neither "understandable" (unless the voter holds similar beliefs) nor acceptable.

By the way, like him or not, Edwards was and is an "able" man. Ability has nothing to do with honesty. He was in fact a good governor when you got past his penchant for corruption. This is not to dismiss or mitigate his misdeeds, for which he paid the consequences, but he is not a stupid or incompetent man. And he never advocated the forced separation of the races, winked at killing blacks, or denied that 6 million people died at the hands of the Nazis. That makes him not only a more decent and, yes, honest man than David Duke, but a far more moral one as well. And Edwards has never announced that God has forgiven him, so it's once again okay to elect him. At least he "mans up" and admits his crimes, takes responsibility for his actions, pays the price, doesn't cynically make claims about divine intervention in his life, and goes from there. I don't admire him but he's a hell of a lot better, and more respectful of religion, than a Vitter or McAllister, let alone a Duke.

Dr. Johnson got it wrong. These days, in America, patriotism isn't the last refuge of the scoundrel. Religion is.

And on that note, and far more importantly, Eric, I wish you -- most sincerely and honestly -- a very happy Easter. Hopefully we can work our way back to living in the spirit of this holiest of holidays and cease musing on corrupt politicians.

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Eric, do you really believe Sanford "acknowledged" his sin, was genuinely repentant and sincerely asked for forgiveness?


First off, I said he had to quit as governor. There had to be consequences for his actions at the time for disgracing the office. Let's be clear about that. And I wanted him out right away, just as I wanted to see Jim McGreevey out on Day 1 after he revealed his sleazy behavior (and disgracing his marital vows) but McGreevey instead refused to quit right away (he stayed on for several months!) solely so a special election couldn't be called and so the unelected Richard Codey could lord over as acting governor for more than a year (because of his position as senate President) until the next election (this I might add is why we finally had our state constitution changed to have a Lieutenant Governor position so that in the event of a resignation, someone elected by the people takes over right away).

Time has elapsed and he says he has asked for forgiveness. Who am *I* or for that matter anyone else to judge the matter of whether he's right with God or not? All I can say is, that from the standpoint of what I think a Christian should do when faced with the failing of a terrible sin against God, he's done the right things more than Eddie Edwards has done or for that matter Elliot Spitzer. If I were to sit in judgment and say, "You're not forgiven by God" and I adopt that kind of superior posture about myself, then I am failing two distinct standards laid down in the New Testament. First is "Judge not, lest you yourself be judged". I want to see if he's going to walk the walk from now own when asking for forgiveness (as say, Chuck Colson did when he emerged from jail). So far, I can't say he hasn't. If he is found doing it again, then yes, he'll get my condemnation and I'll tell him to quit right now. And second, before I get so loud in my condemnations, I have to make sure I don't start sounding like the Pharisee in the temple boasting of how he's not like the tax collector who did publicly confess his moral failing. The point is, you seem to say that Sanford asking for forgiveness and saying he has learned from this is a further sign of his phoniness, and that's not a standard I can automatically agree with.

I can of course easily turn this around to ask why the people of Massachusetts continuously sent back to the Senate a man whose behavior on July 19, 1969 was worse than that of Mark Sanford since that resulted in a woman *dying*. Make no mistake, if there were not an unnatural obsession on the part of some people to preserve a lordly image of the Kennedy family as "America's Royalty" then Ted Kennedy would have (and IMO should have) done time for involuntary manslaughter. Yet we were all supposed to forget about that because of all the good things Ted Kennedy did in the name of "progressive" causes and the causes of "social justice". There is nothing though that I find more repulsive in how Ted Kennedy was then able to cast aspersions on the moral character of Robert Bork with that despicable "Robert Bork's America" speech that falsely maligned him, and considering Ted Kennedy's own lack of character that he never answered for in the ways that I've seen Sanford be forced to acknowledge, I can not be impressed by this denunciation of those who decided they didn't want a Hollywood liberal's sister representing them. I also don't buy the argument that if a person is not open about his faith, then that means he can get a greater free pass for his moral failings than the Christian who falls, because that to me denies the equality of sin in the eyes of God and the equality of how we should treat the action, because whether or not the person has been a public professor of his faith or not isn't really relevant to the nature of the sinful and wrongful conduct. I don't see why rotten behavior by a secularist should somehow make that behavior less odious (is this the reason why Gerry Studds went on to be hailed as a hero by Nancy Pelosi despite the fact that he did the SAME thing that Mark Foley did?)

The point is, I think there are enough cases from both sides of the aisle that should give us pause on the nature of how far can our sense of righteous judgment go on this. I will be perfectly honest, when I heard the stories of how Jane Fonda supposedly divorced Ted Turner because he was mad at her for becoming a Christian, my view of Fonda was this. If she had become a sincere Christian, then I had to recognize that *as* a Christian no matter how much I have despised her for what she did in Vietnam, and to be grateful that she had done what was necessary to be saved because my hatred for what she did does NOT mean I have the right to say the Kingdom of Heaven should then be denied her. If I'm willing to find a place in my heart for Jane Fonda, then I can surely do no less for Mark Sanford if I see no reason to at this point believe he hasn't learned from what the consequences of his sin was. If we can not show that willingness in our hearts to understand the meaning of the word forgiveness, then how can we be moved by Jesus' call to "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" against someone who was guilty of the same sin of adultery? The point is that the adulteress then had to follow the edict, "Go and sin no more". If Sanford holds to that standard, then he can regain some trust. If not, then he will face judgment from his constituents just as he will from God.

Happy Easter to you as well and all the best.

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Just read this thread and isn't it strange how we not only get off the subject, but how emotional things got. Wow!

"The internet is for lonely people. People should live." Charlton Heston

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What's that face all about, hob?

"The internet is for lonely people. People should live." Charlton Heston

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Good old "Out"? Oh, just what it says. Just means I'm a bit drained emotionally and emoticonically by all the to-ing and fro-ing that comes with expanding thread argumentation. In short, I'm out...for a time. On this thread. I'll get over it.

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"Ha-ha-ha! I have no idea, but considering she was born in Texas in 1904 she almost certainly at least started out as a Democrat."

hob, Glenda Farrell was born in Enid, Oklahoma, on 30 June 1901, not Texas in 1904.

http://www.secretoftheincas.co.ukhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhSPcAyCgwE

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Eh, Texas, Oklahoma, what's the difference?

My mistake, I guess I conflated Glenda's bio with somebody else's, though at this stage I have no idea who.

Anyway, Oklahoma was also heavily Democratic back then (though not a state until 1907), so the odds or percentages favored her being a Democrat. But more than likely I suspect she probably was or ended up as a Republican, if any of this means anything.

I haven't been on this site in weeks. Haven't heard from anybody until now. I've been wondering what's up. How is your back, James?

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Once you reach old age - everyone becomes a Republican, hob .... even you will probably vote for Mitt Romney in the next election!

"The internet is for lonely people. People should live." Charlton Heston

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I think I'd have to be considerably older for that to happen, Os!

Though just now Romney is suddenly at the top of the polls of Republicans for 2016, all out of nowhere. Considering how much trouble he had nailing down the nomination against a bunch of unqualified nincompoops in 2012, as the front-runner with all the money and with the party establishment behind him, I can't imagine how he'd fare against some tougher opponents in '16. Mitt himself just said that when people think a candidate is unavailable, his polls are always high, but as soon as he actually announces, his numbers plummet, and he's right.

The only way he'd get the nomination is to formally enter by early next year. He won't get it by just waiting for others to reach a stalemate and being asked to step in as a compromise candidate. Realistically there isn't going to be a deadlock among three or four candidates where everyone turns to him and asks him to run. Besides, these days you need to have a campaign set up a year or more ahead of the election. Romney has a nucleus of a campaign that could be brought into action but that wouldn't be enough if he didn't get the nomination until the convention. Fifty or sixty years ago perhaps, but not in the lunatic system we have today.

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Who is the Democratic front-runner, to replace the easily-replaceable Prez Obama?

"The internet is for lonely people. People should live." Charlton Heston

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Well, Hillary of course. I assume she'll run and she's miles ahead of anyone else. But I'm not so sure how good a candidate she really is. Too cautious.

Still, she's ahead of everyone, Democrat or Republican, though some recent polls show a closer race than a few months ago. Two years out, who can really say? The only Republicans I think could actually win the nomination, apart from the Romney fantasy (I don't think he'll run), are Rand Paul, the junior Senator from Kentucky, and Jeb Bush. People talk about Chris Christie, the fat Governor of New Jersey, but he has scandals at home and a lot of baggage in his corrupt background (the main reason Romney's people quickly dismissed him as a possible running mate for Vice President in 2012). Two Texans, Gov. Rick Perry and Sen. Ted Cruz, may run but are, respectively, probably too dumb and too extreme to win the party's nod (Republicans like them but realize they can't win). There are others -- Florida Sen. Marco Rubio, ex-Gov. Mike Huckabee of Arkansas (who ran in '08), a couple of other governors, plus some other wannabes and lesser guys.

Basically I think Jeb -- if he runs -- will inherit the establishment's support that had seemed headed for Christie. But from what I hear Jeb has given up on becoming President and won't run. This may make Christie the establishment's default choice (against the other, even farther-right candidates), but I think he has too many issues to get the nomination. So basically I think Rand Paul is the most likely Republican nominee. But that's very far from certain.

What surprises me is that all these guys run behind Hillary, even after her recent dip in the polls. She beats Bush and Rubio easily in their home state of Florida, beats Christie in his home of New Jersey, beats Paul Ryan (Romney's running mate) and Gov. Scott Walker in their home state of Wisconsin, and has the lead in all the so-called battleground states that could go either way and will decide the election: Florida, Virginia, New Hampshire, Ohio, Iowa, Wisconsin, Colorado. She could also put some other states in play. These days the electoral map favors the Democrats so it's uphill for the Republicans but certainly do-able. But it's a long way to 2016.

No one beats Hillary for the Democratic nomination if she runs but if she doesn't it's a free-for-all. VP Joe Biden is planning to run; he's popular with Dems but is seen as someone who can't win. Others mentioned are the outgoing Governor of Maryland, Martin O'Malley, Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders (a socialist who is an Independent but caucuses with the Democrats in the Senate), and Massachusetts Senator Elizabeth Warren is the glamor girl a lot of Dems hope for, but she's stated repeatedly she won't run. Basically it's Hillary vs. the ants. After that, we'll have to see what 2016 is like.

Obama has been a disappointment to me (I favored Hillary in '08) but his saving grace may be when the Reps win the Senate this fall, as they almost certainly will. A lot of the red-hots in the House of Representatives want to impeach him and may have the votes to do so, in which case the Senate has to try him and vote whether to actually remove him from office. This will never happen because Obama hasn't committed an impeachable offense and even if they control the Senate they won't have the votes to remove him from office. (It takes 2/3 of the Senate, or 67 votes, and at most they'd have 53 or so senators, and not even every Republican would vote to remove him.) Nothing would boost Obama's fortunes more. I actually doubt this will happen because the party leadership realizes it would backfire and be a disaster, but so much of the Republican Party hates -- literally hates -- Obama (often at base for racial reasons, though they deny that) that they may force the party to impeach. Fine by me.

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Hi everyone!

hob, my back is okay, but I am in pain every day and probably will be for the rest of my life. I had a break from here for a couple of months because I slipped my disc - and continued working, like the lunatic I am!

Two nights ago I watched a movie I ordered a while back called VENETIAN BIRD starring Richard Todd and Eva Bartok. The only reason I ordered it was because of Bartok, an actress whom I admire immensely after seeing OPERATION AMSTERDAM. Eva looked very much like Nicole Maurey in some scenes, and this British film noir was a wonderful surprise. Some of the scenes were straight out of THE THIRD MAN, the whole movie being filmed in Venice in 1952. There was one scene that shamed SECRET OF THE INCAS, though. The baddie falls to his death from a church roof and it looks very realistic, not like the dummy that is supposed to be Thomas Mitchell flayling around down the slopes of Machu Picchu.

I am going to order some more Eva Bartok movies now, hob. By the way, her real life was far more colourful than her screen life!

http://www.secretoftheincas.co.ukhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhSPcAyCgwE

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James, it's great to hear from you again! Guess we're all straggling back after the summer holiday. But I'm very sorry to hear about your back, particularly your "life sentence". Hope that doesn't prove to be the case. But you're in good (meaning unfortunate) company: my wife has to have yet more back surgery next week, if things go according to plan. When we all meet you can compare notes. Doing scars may not prove feasible in a public venue.

I have only very vaguely heard of the movie Venetian Bird and know nothing about it. Sounds interesting though, and I may try to get it, even if it's only in Region 2. You're right about Eva Bartok's real life, though I read that in her later years she reflected on how much she felt she had wasted her life. Rather sad.

I never thought about cataloging an Eva Bartok library but offhand I can think of five films of hers I own: Operation Amsterdam, Spaceways, Ten Thousand Bedrooms, S.O.S. Pacific and her best, The Crimson Pirate, though in that one at least her voice was dubbed. But it was a great, fun frolic. I can highly recommend your getting that film, as well as S.O.S. Pacific, which I know is available in Region 2 (though the R2 disc of Crimson Pirate isn't all that good -- not an official WB release). S.O.S. Pacific (1959) concerns a passenger plane that while en route across the titular ocean crashes on a deserted island, which the survivors quickly realize is the site of an impending atom bomb test. A good cast headed by John Gregson, Pier Angeli, and the late Richard Attenborough, plus in one of his few English-language films, no less a personage than Eddie Constantine. Modestly budgeted but it gets the job done.

Spaceways was I believe Hammer Studios' first film and truth be told it's quite boring for a science fiction movie, or for that matter any kind of movie. It was an early example of the 1950s practice of casting an American actor in the lead of a medium-budget British sci-fi film in order to boost the movie's box office potential, particularly in America. Of course, the star of that picture, Howard Duff, was never much of a box-office draw. But he blazed the trail for the likes of Brian Donlevy, Dean Jagger, Forrest Tucker, even Barbara Payton and John Crawford. Of course, major UK films used major US stars back then too -- Gregory Peck, Virginia Mayo, William Holden and so forth -- but somehow I can't see any of them starring in Spaceways. Unless they were drugged.

I've thoroughly enjoyed the More books, by the way. Can't thank you enough for them, and for your generosity. Talk to you again soon, I hope!

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hob
I have seen THE CRIMSON PIRATE many times, real fun movie. I have most of Burt Lancaster's films on dvd, except MR. 880, and a couple of others.

A workmate has recommended something called BLOOD AND BLACK LACE which stars Eva Bartok. The way he described it made my mouth water. I hope it is available on dvd.

SPACEWAYS sounds boring but if the price is right I'll buy it and give it a go. S.O.S. PACIFIC is a movie I have never seen, so I'm looking forward to it, hob.

Just to get back to SECRET OF THE INCAS for a second. On one of the boards we were discussing if the Kurt Katch sniper character was a "commie" or not. Well, in one of the scenes which was eventually changed (literally) at the last minute Heston floors the hitman who then answers "Ja nie wiem" (Polish for "I do not know") to all the questions Harry Steele asks him. Harry smashes the rifle and then Katch was supposed to plead "my rifle ... who will pay for my rifle?"
Steele curtly replies "Ja nie wiem!"

So Kurt Katch was Polish in the movie, well at least he was in the original script!

http://www.secretoftheincas.co.ukhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhSPcAyCgwE

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I saw Blood and Black Lace many years ago and had nearly forgotten all about it. Not bad as I recall. I know it's available on DVD in the U.S. but the reviews of the quality of the disc itself are decidedly mixed, some very negative (though they all like the movie). Maybe there's a better version in Britain.

Yes, by all means give both S.O.S. Pacific and Spaceways a go. I know the latter was also released in the UK though it might be out of print by now; even if it is you should be able to find it, and there is an R1 DVD if all else fails. Spaceways isn't terrible, just plodding, and more murder mystery and espionage than actual space stuff.

Mister 880 is available here on the Fox Cinema Archives MOD line. Standard price is $19.99 (a bit under £13). Have you seen the film? Anyway, if you want it and have a problem let me know and I'll get it for you. I assume you can play a U.S. MOD. What other Lancaster films don't you have but would like to own?

Speaking of other 50s leading men, in late July Warner Archives released six films from the 50s starring Glenn Ford, four of which I have wanted for years. Two had never been released on home video of any format: Trial (1955) and Ransom! (1956), which was remade (better) by Ron Howard in 1996. Trial was MGM's prestige film of 1955 so its absence on DVD or anything else until now is baffling. It's set in 1947 and concerns a Mexican-American boy on trial for murder, and his exploitation by political elements on the left and right. Arthur Kennedy received the third of his five Oscar nominations for his performance as a Communist attorney.

The other two Ford films had had inferior VHS releases in the 1980s: Torpedo Run (1958), a so-so but lively war film, and The White Tower (1950), an RKO film about a disparate group of people who for their own reasons agree to climb an unconquered peak in the Swiss Alps. The widescreen Torpedo Run had been released on tape only in pan & scan, but what's been inexplicable is the treatment of The White Tower. It was filmed in color but when 16mm TV prints were struck in the 1950s for some reason they were made only in black & white, and for decades the film was only shown that way. Although it's been broadcast in color since the late 80s (here and in the UK, as I've learned), when Ted Turner released it on VHS in the late 80s it was once again just in b&w -- this despite the fact that, as was pointed out at the time, here was Turner, busily colorizing b&w films while releasing an actual color film in black & white! I've since seen on Amazon UK that the film is available on a fairly recent Odeon DVD there -- but only in b&w! (Another R2 DVD, from France I think, is also only in b&w.) Apparently both DVDs use the old b&w TV print as their source, but why is anybody's guess. The film is not only in beautiful Technicolor but was shot on location, so you miss a great deal by not seeing it as it was photographed. Fortunately, the WA release is in color. It's a good movie too, one I plan to show in my classic film series next summer, along with Trial.

The other two new Ford films were Young Man With Ideas, a not bad, seldom-seen comedy, and Imitation General, an odd WWII comedy-drama. Last year WA released another good 1953 Ford film called Terror on a Train, known in the UK as Time Bomb. It's a very good thriller, shot on location in England, with Ford a Canadian demolitions expert called in to locate and disarm a bomb placed by a Communist agent aboard a trainload of landmines being transported through the country. Pretty suspenseful, and with a neat ending.

As far as the Kurt Katch character in Secret of the Incas goes, hey, I don't know what the big deal is. I always thought his brief but memorable turn as the cowardly "man with rifle" showed considerable polish.

Oh, um, wait...uh, yeah, okay. So, he was supposed to be Polish in the script, eh? Cuzco was suddenly crawling with Commies back then, it seems. But frankly I think his uttering "Ja nie wiem" would have pretty much gone over everyone's head, outside of certain sections of Chicago...though I suppose if it was his response to several questions some people might catch the gist of what he was saying. Maybe retaining the line but in English would have made for a more pointed if less elegant riposte by Harry Steele, who I doubt understood Polish either. Of course, why not go all the way and have KK moan "Ya nye znayu", in out-and-out Russian? But then you have the same lost-in-translation problem. All I can say is, I don't know.

I think as usual Yma Sumac put it best when she sang, stretched over four or five octaves, "¡No sé!"

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"Oh, um, wait...uh, yeah, okay. So, he was supposed to be Polish in the script, eh? Cuzco was suddenly crawling with Commies back then, it seems. But frankly I think his uttering "Ja nie wiem" would have pretty much gone over everyone's head, outside of certain sections of Chicago..."

That is very interesting, hob, how come all those Polish immigrants ended up in Chicago. Why "The Windy City"?

http://www.secretoftheincas.co.ukhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhSPcAyCgwE

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Who knows? Why did the Swedes and Norwegians end up in Minnesota, North Dakota and South Dakota? The Irish in Boston and New York, Italians in New York? Immigrants from the Azores wound up around New Bedford in the un-Azorean climes of Massachusetts. There's a big Portugese community in Hawaii, of all places. Germans settled in Nebraska and Texas as well as Ohio and Wisconsin. Cubans settle in Florida and New Jersey, Puerto Ricans in New York.

Usually it has to do with whether they wanted to become farmers or ranchers, or whether they preferred urban occupations. Geographical proximity to their point of entry played a role. Also, once a large group of immigrants from one particular place settle somewhere, those who follow tend to go to the same place to be with their kinsmen. Even today you can find many parts of the country predominantly populated by members of a particular ethnic background.

A lot of Poles ended up in and around Chicago, probably to work in the stockyards and mills, and the city wound up with I believe the largest Polish community in the US.

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James,
So you're a big fan of Burt Lancaster, too. I can imagine Burt's good mate Kirk Douglas as Harry Steele, after all Kirk played a heartless, scheming scumbag in "Ace in the hole," but I can't think of any role that big grinning lunk Lancaster played that was remotely similar to Harry Steele.

"The internet is for lonely people. People should live." Charlton Heston

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If I may intrude on Os's James-directed message, Kirk Douglas's character in Ace in the Hole (Chuck Tatum) was pretty unrelentingly vicious and nasty. By contrast, Harry Steels is a bit of a smart-aleck and a get-rich-quick schemer, but not the vicious louse Tatum was.

I actually think Lancaster would have been a better Steele than Douglas. Kirk was too intense. Burt had that insouciance Harry Steele required. A close though inexact example might be Burt's performance that very same year in Vera Cruz, although his character there was nastier and more self-interested than Harry Steele...in fact, closer to Ace's Chuck Tatum, but in a more grinning way. Perhaps a softened version of his Vera Cruz character would have been apt.

Or better yet: the character Lancaster played in The Professionals (1966). That was more a Steele-like character: in it for the dough, but ultimately ready to do the right thing.

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Kirk as Harry Steele ... hmmm .... that is certainly feasible, at least more feasible than Burt, but I can't imagine either being as good as Heston. Chuck was practically perfect as Harry Steele, and how many times can you say that about an actor's performance?

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Just imagine Chuck, Burt and Kirk in the same movie. There would certainly be a lot of teeth on show - they were all noted for flashing their gnashers!

The internet is for lonely people. People should live. Charlton Heston

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Chuck & Kirk & Burt!

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Lizabeth Scott would have to be in that Chuck, Burt and Kirk movie, she made more movies with the teethy trio than any other actress, hob.

The internet is for lonely people. People should live. Charlton Heston

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True, but to no avail, I'm afraid. She's gay and, at 92, lives in Vermont with cats. Or maybe she just liked pussies, I get confused.

  

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So you read Confidential, do you, hob?

Very good about her pussies, by the way.

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Religiously, but I got this from The Economist.

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I just watched DEAD MEN DON'T WEAR PLAID last night and was quite disappointed that Lizabeth Scott wasn't in it. Edith Head's final movie was most enjoyable, I might add.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhSPcAyCgwE

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It had its moments. I hope in that one Edith Head actually did her own work and wasn't taking credit for others', as she usually did. Personally I never thought she'd be caught dead in plaid.

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hob, you know what I was thinking while I watched DEAD MEN DON'T WEAR PLAID?

Why doesn't somebody do a similar spoof with the 1950's adventure genre - just think of the possibilities with clips of Heston in SOTI, Ladd in CHINA and Reagan in HONG KONG. They are all Paramount productions as well. Some of the lines in these movies are already so funny that they could have Harrison Ford's Indy as the straight man.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhSPcAyCgwE

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That is a great idea, James. Of course, China was made in 1942, was in b&w (the others are in color), and was part of the pre-1949 bloc of Paramount sound pictures sold by that studio to MCA in 1956, now controlled by Universal. So copyrights might be an issue, though they weren't with Plaid.

But having some comedian traveling around the globe seeking some sort of loopy treasure while interacting with characters from old adventure flicks could be very funny -- provided you had the right modern actor interfacing with all the older stars.

Robert Taylor in Valley of the Kings, the trio from The Treasure of the Sierra Madre, the same sort of bunch from Jivaro, many others are around to mine for scenes.

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Yes, what a terrific spoof that could be. Regarding the black and white Ladd movie, surely they could colourize those clips to fit in with the colour movies. They can work wonders nowadays, Marilyn Monroe is in a British tv advert walking and talking with modern models.

I would hope they would employ better screenwriters than those in the Martin movie, though.

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Colorize? Colorize???!!! Whether spelled (or spelt) "colourise", or with or without a zed or zee.

COLORIZATION!!!!????

Send that abominable word, that abomination of a concept, that travesty of all that is sacred about the art of film, that destructive force developed by greedy slobs for the benefit of half-witted morons, in any spelling, back to the spawn of hell whence it sprang, and RIGHT NOW, or our relationship will be terminated*!!!!!



PS: Incidentally, it sucks. Always has. Always will.

*In so far as this topic goes.

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Something tells me you don't like COLORIZATION one bit, do you hob?

Supposing they could find away of making all the colours actually look like Technicolor, instead of everyone looking a mushy pink. Would you like it then?

The internet is for lonely people. People should live. Charlton Heston

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I would hate Casablanca to be colorised, it just wouldn't look right. By the same token, I cannot imagine what Secret of the Incas would look like in black and white. It would lose some of its magic, I think.

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Os: NO!

No matter how they allegedly "improve" colorization it is of necessity and by definition fake and inaccurate.

Fake for obvious reasons. You can never reproduce true color by any means because no computer can match the shadings, nuances and yes, inconsistencies in actual color found in nature. Other considerations aside, the process of overlaying a gray image with color makes it impossible to create real colors. Colorization just smears everything one broad, unchanged, flat color, with none of the subtleties and differences seen in the actual world.

Inaccurate because in the vast majority of cases no one knows what the actual colors of something (and even of people) was, so it's just some dumbbell colorization technician making his own, thoroughly random, arbitrary and capricious decisions over what false color to slap onto something. And again, it's just broad-brush smearing: none of the variations, none of the vast variety of tones you see in a real color film, as well as in that other thing they call "life". And even if you know what color something was, it's impossible to create it exactly.

Also, films convey a different mood, a different tone, depending on whether they're shot in b&w or color. They were so intended and made accordingly. Colorization destroys that. A colorized version of a film is not simply the same movie with phony color added. It's been eviscerated, and transformed into something it isn't.

As to looking like Technicolor, here's what I always say to fans of desecrating movies this way: Watch a colorized film, then watch a contemporary film actually shot in color, and compare. There is no comparison. It's like saying, "Daniel Day Lewis looks a lot like Lincoln" until you see an actual picture of Lincoln.

Lastly, if colorization is acceptable, then why not any of the other things you can do to change films today? Replace the music score, digitally insert or delete actors or other elements, alter dialogue, cut "offensive" language or references, and so on? These aren't theoretical possibilities; they've actually been done. Colorization is no different. It's artistic vandalism, done without the permission of the creators and in any case an affront to truth. If you say it's okay, then in fairness and logic you have to say altering films in other ways is also justified.

Haddock: Casablanca was colorized about 25 years ago, courtesy of Ted Turner. The public reaction was so outraged that it mercifully disappeared quickly; I'm not sure Turner ever even put it out for sale on VHS. I saw it on its initial broadcast, and it really was abysmal.

Here's a good one: When television came in, films were put on 16mm prints for TV broadcast, and in most cases even color films were transferred to 16mm in color, despite the fact that they'd only be shown in black & white. But there were a few exceptions, and one of those was a 1950 movie called The White Tower, which was put on a b&w 16mm print. And that's the only way it was seen anywhere for nearly 40 years, even after other color films had long since been broadcast in color; only in the late 80s did this film suddenly show up in color.

Now, at that time, Turner had a VHS line of all the RKO films he owned. But when they put out The White Tower, the VHS was in black & white! This led to a lot of sarcastic jabs at Turner: that here he was, busily colorizing all these older films for home video, while releasing a movie that actually was filmed in color in b&w! In the past couple of years that film has come out on DVD in Britain and Germany -- astoundingly, still in a b&w print, though it's long since been shown in color on TV. It was only in July that Warner Archives here finally released it in all its beautiful shot-on-location-in-the-French-Alps Technicolor. Pretty good film, too.

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hob, you have totally convinced me mate - and you have never been more correct. I hated the colourized version of "The Longest Day" I was totally distracted all the way through with the mishy mushy colours they used - all three of them!

The internet is for lonely people. People should live. Charlton Heston

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If I have made one convert to the cause, Os, my life has not be in vain for nuthin'.

We had two very popular film critics on TV here for many years, from the 70s till the late 90s or so, named Gene Siskel and Roger Ebert. They were the film critics for the two Chicago papers, the Tribune and Sun-Times, and began hosting a syndicated series where they reviewed the latest films, famously giving them a thumbs-up or thumbs down. (Tragically, Siskel died of a brain tumor about 15 or so years ago,; Ebert carried on until cancer got him too, costing him his tongue and voice; he died last year.)

Anyway, when colorization came in in the late 80s they both excoriated it, in common with almost all critics and members of the industry. I believe it was Siskel, but it might have been Ebert, who said that watching a colorized movie was like seeing embalmed corpses standing in front of pastel wallpaper. An apt characterization.

I saw the colorized version of The Longest Day. Pale pink, purple and green. The blood 'n' guts colors of an invading armada!

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I cannot imagine what Secret of the Incas would look like in black and white. It would lose some of its magic, I think.

You are correct Haddock, SECRET OF THE INCAS in b/w loses most of its magic. I saw it on tv in 1966 when British tv was just black and white (and we had just two channels!) and it wasn't the same movie at all. I had seen it three years before at a cinema and in all its glorious Technicolor majesty and the film was a bit of a disappointment in b/w on a small screen (with adverts thrown in as well!).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhSPcAyCgwE

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I never saw SOTI other than in color. (We had color TV by the early-mid 60s, and my mother had actually won a color television set on a TV quiz show she was on in 1960, when color television was very rare.) I was also lucky to grow up in and around New York City, where in those pre-cable days we had seven channels, more than most places in the US except Los Angeles, so movies were run all the time...albeit, with ads!

Anyway, if you saw my post mentioning the film The White Tower, I can empathize with you, James. Color films should be seen in color, and b&w in b&w...as, in the famous phrase, they were all intended.

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There are two black and white homages to Indiana Jones on the internet with loads of b/w clips from SECRET OF THE INCAS inserted to fit in with all the other adventure movies and serials of that era. Both are mini-classics made by two very talented fans of the genre. If you want to see what SOTI looks like - minus glorious Technicolor - have a peek at those two hob. One is called RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARLK 1951 and the other is called RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARTS.

Both are great fun!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhSPcAyCgwE

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I take it you mean "RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK 1951". Or was it a reference to the homage's creators doing the movie for a dyslexic lark?!

🐣 🐦 🐦 🐦

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I blame my fat fingers hob!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhSPcAyCgwE

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ARKL! 

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