Plot hole --- Joseph Cotten requesting 'Kiss' at carrillon ?? - Niagara Discussion

[–] aldiboronti 16 years ago

The only possible answer is that the information came from the lover and Loomis had forced him to reveal the whole plot just before he killed him.

reply

[–] make_bleed 16 years ago

he probably already knew he was being cuckolded when he crushed the record at the dance party. perhaps he didn't even know it was supposed to be a signal when he decided to torture her with the song.

reply

[–] Death_to_Pan_and_Scan 16 years ago

He played the song first to fake her lover's signal and fool her, then played it again when he learned she was in the hospital to torture her.
I just got done rewatching this mediocre noir earlier tonight. For a good Marilyn thriller, I suggest "Don't Bother to Knock" instead.

clarification: I agreee that the first time he played it -- when she took it as her lover's signal -- does cause a big plot hole if he's supposed to have done it to fake the signal. The second time he obviously did it to torture her while she was in the hospital. If the first playing of the song by the church bells was also meant to torture her, that would be stupid, because it seems too soon for her to have learned of her lover's death yet.

----------
"It's such a sadness that you think you've seen a film on your *beep* ing telephone. Get real."

reply

[–] wtl471629 16 years ago

I tend to agree with make bleed. I don't know if he knew it was the signal but he knew it was her favorite song so he probably did it just to tortue her and didn't even know it was a signal.

reply

[–] Belletrist0 16 years ago

I agree with make_bleed, too. Remember what he told Polly about the song, and how Rose did not tell him when she first heard it (and with who). He knew that song had special significance to Rose.

Also, it is possible that Patrick requested the song to be played the first time, prior to meeting George at the Falls, because he was so confident that their plan would go smoothly. Thus, the song plays, Patrick is dead, Rose thinks her husband was murdered, and George, hearing the song, realizes this is no coincidence, and is tied back to Rose and her mysterious lover, whom George now knows is the man who tried to kill him. Thus, the second time, George requests the song to taunt Rose.

---------
Earn Amazon, Starbucks, and other GCs via search:

http://abe5.com/bxv

reply

[–] viaggio1 16 years ago

---"Also, it is possible that Patrick requested
the song prior to meeting George at the Falls,
because he was so confident that their plan would
go smoothly."---

Belletriste0 --- it is possible, but the film clearly shows a
hand delivering the request for the song at the carillon AFTER
the killing --- leading viewers to ponder --- was it George
or Patrick who survived ?

I do agree, however, that George was aware that the song held special
significance for Rose.

"A bride without a head !"
"A wolf without a foot !"

reply

[–] Belletrist0 16 years ago

Belletriste0 --- it is possible, but the film clearly shows a
hand delivering the request for the song at the carillon AFTER
the killing --- leading viewers to ponder --- was it George
or Patrick who survived ?

What do you mean by ponder? By the time we see the song request delivered to be played a second time, we already know that Patrick had died and George survived because the latter had gone to his former cabin, and then talked to Polly at the Falls.

---------
Earn Amazon, Starbucks, and other GCs via search:

http://abe5.com/bxv

reply

[–] viaggio1 16 years ago

Clearly, the viewer will figure it out after a while, but it is presented as a mystery the first time a hand presents the request to the carrillon.

"A bride without a head !"
"A wolf without a foot !"

reply

[–] Belletrist0 16 years ago

I think you're a bit confused. There is only one shot of a hand delivering the music request, and it shows that hand as belonging to George (we have just seen him with Polly at the Falls). There is no mystery there.

The question is about who requested the song to be played the first time, especially since there are no shots shown of any hands or figures before or right after the song plays the first time. It is up the viewer to decide whether Patrick delivered the first request prior to his death (due to his confidence), or whether George delivered it right after he killed Patrick, and then requested the song a second time. That is where the mystery remains.

---------
Earn Amazon, Starbucks, and other GCs via search:

http://abe5.com/bxv

reply

[–] Echo_in_big_sky 14 years ago

Maybe, since it is a written request, it was on the body of the lover and fell out of a pocket during their struggle so the husband knew about it and followed through with the request. That would explain how the husband knew to play it as a signal and also to torture her.

Just be truthful and if you can fake that you've got it made. ;)

reply

[–] johnnyha1 10 years ago

This is the most logical explanation and eliminates any plot holes. It's a great moment in the movie when the carillon goes off the first time playing "Kiss" and she assumes her husband has been killed. Her husband WANTS her to think that. In fact we the viewers are supposed to think that although clever viewers will guess what really happened. Don't overthink this it's a brilliant movie and this is not a plot hole or mistake. The director does not need to spell every little thing out. Just assume the note fell out of her lover's pocket, There's several other logical explanations but it doesn't matter. Just enjoy the movie it's great!

reply

[–] joeystewstew 16 years ago

I had exactly the same thought.

However there is a reference earlier on when the 'Kiss' song is playing and Joseph Cotton smashes the record. He makes some obscure comment to Rose about the significance of that song, and essentially why would she play it when she knows it hurts him. So he must have known she was having an affair and perhaps even knew it was 'their' song.

Now, this still doesn't explain why it plays in the carrillon after the murder. I guess either :
- it is a total coincedence the song happens to be playing
- he thought she might hear it so he requested it just to mess with her head
- he guessed they might use it as a signal; so he kind of set it as a trap, to make her think her lover was dead

Another brain teaser is why the hell the carrillon would make avaliable such a bloody awful song in the first place!

reply

[–] 16 years ago

[deleted]

[–] viaggio1 15 years ago

Maybe there are 3 or 4 versions of the movie out there, cut up for T.V. Perhaps a correct sequence of events was present in the original, but not in any of the edited versions ?

"A bride without a head !"
"A wolf without a foot !"

reply

[–] AngelKH 15 years ago

Yes, its a genuine plot hole. I think viaggio1 is right: Darryl F Zanuck was notorious for butchering movies in the editing room. Photographs exist of scenes from 'Niagara' which are not in the final cut. There was definitely a scene involving Rose Loomis and the detective in Cabin B. Maybe there were other scenes too. I read somewhere Zanuck generally preferred the films released by 20thC-Fox to be 80-90mins or under. The cut scenes were often destroyed within 12 months of the film's theatrical release so it is unlikely it will ever be restored.

reply

[–] Charles-31 14 years ago

I thought about this while watching the movie today. The indication that the bells would be played was passed to Marilyn on the post card (which she walked out of the store with and did not pay for, BTW). It was clear that the Joseph Cotten character was following here at that time and was aware she was in the store and may have witnessed the note passing. She discarded the card with the clear directions on it outside the store, an act he very likely did see. If he saw this, he likely retrieved it. It would have given him the heads up that someone was after him, making it more likely he would survive the attack, and the information needed to trick his wife into believing he had been killed.

reply

[–] stevenvh 14 years ago

I thought about it too while I was watching it, from the moment I saw Loomis entering the cabin till the end!
First I thought yours was the only plausible explanation I read in this thread, apart from being a plot hole. And that it might have helped if Hathaway had shown a shot where George sees Rose when she exits the shop. But then this can't be it either: George bought a ticket for the Scenic Tunnel and was in the elevator when Rose walked out.
I think it's a plot hole.

Not only didn't Rose pay for the postcard, she tore it up while still in the shop!

--
Rome. By all means, Rome.

reply

[–] Sylvie17 13 years ago

I was bothered by this plot hole at first, but then I concluded that this was probably a popular song at the time, and some other couple just happened to request it. I don't think he ever saw the post card-it was right after that scene that Marilyn misled him into believing that everything was OK, and he seemed to fall for it hook line and sinker.

reply

[–] rditewig801 8 years ago

Cotten knew that "Kiss" was Rose's favorite and would capture her attention if
played on the bells.

reply

[–] Wizzleteats 8 years ago

Marilyn's lover makes arrangements with her at the souvenir shop --- if all goes well, if he succeeds in killing Joseph Cotten --- he will have the carrillon play "Kiss." But Joseph Cotten manages to kill Marilyn's lover, then requests "Kiss" at the carrillon. Although the song does succeed in torturing Marilyn, how could Cotten have known that that was to be the lovers' signal ??

It is not a plot hole.

Early in the movie, during the nighttime cabin party outside, it's made clear that Rose Loomis is aware that "Kiss" bothers her husband, George. Her facial expressions say it all. After George comes out and breaks the record, Polly Cutler goes into the Loomis cabin to help him. During that scene, he tells her he suspects things are going on with Rose and brings the song up. Shortly before the cabin party (or maybe it was after), he flat-out confronts Rose about her always humming that song as if she's thinking of someone else.

By the time the bell signal scene arrives, George is fully aware that Rose is up to something (otherwise, he wouldn't be there to begin with). Due to his paranoid nature, and with the "Kiss" references in mind from earlier, it's not difficult to assume George finally put the pieces together when he was attacked by Rose's lover, Patrick. We're to assume he got the information out of Patrick. So then he rings the bells after he takes care of him. His putting the pieces together also explains why he supposedly tortures Rose with the bells as she lays in the hospital.

George being curious about the suspicious nature of Rose, and the attack on him by Patrick, is what ties all of this together.

🎼"I'm looking at the river, but I'm thinking of the sea"🎵

reply

[–] viaggio1 8 years ago

It is not a plot hole...it's not difficult to assume George finally put the pieces together when he was attacked by Rose's lover...We're to assume he got the information out of Patrick.

I can only imagine the circumstances ---

Close-up: George has beaten Patrick to a pulp, and is propping him up against the wooden barrier overlooking the maelstrom. Water cascades all around them. Both men have bruises and blood on their faces.

George (in a deep, guttural voice):

"You dirty rat --- before I toss you over the side, tell me two things --- first, were you going to leave some sort of signal for Rose, indicating that you had successfully killed me ? Because, you know, usually in these circumstances, the lover just returns to the newly-widowed wife, they clarify alibis, and then they do some celebrating...or else they skip town, and then celebrate...but if you had some sort of signal, it would be personally very helpful to me if I knew that...

"Secondly, what was it about you that caused Rose to prefer you over me ? I mean, maybe I've still got a shot with her --- perhaps, if I learned to do what you do for her, then maybe we can patch things up --- are you more considerate than I am, or do you buy her pretty things, or is there some sort of kissing technique you've mastered ?? What sort of cologne do you use ? Perhaps, you're not a veteran who's cracked up because of war experiences ? What ??!? You won't tell me ?? All right, buddy, I'll just have to beat you some more...."

I guess there's a reason they (usually !) leave these sorts of scenes out of movies....

(LOL !)

J'ai l'œil AMÉRICAIN !

reply

[–] liscarkat (18610) 6 years ago

Either Cotten's character forced information out of the guy before they struggled, or, in movie villain fashion, the guy gloatingly explained the plan before attempting to throw Cotten into the river. Unfortunately for the boyfriend, it didn't work out the way he'd planned. In the words of Tuco Ramirez, "When you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk."

reply