MovieChat Forums > Twelve O'Clock High (1950) Discussion > Did generals really fly regularly?

Did generals really fly regularly?


Were there actually generals that flew every mission as shown in this film? Would seem to be very dangerous for intelligence and even propaganda reasons if they would be shot down and captured...

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[deleted]

"entering the plane with two parachutes, and reputedly panicked, according to one book I have read. "

LeMay panicked? I'd like to hear more on THAT one; LeMay was one of the GREAT innovators of the 8th AF--he even flew the FIRST mission to Regensberg & he supposedly had nerves of steel....You sure this ain't another revisionist history hatchet job like the one where J Edgar Hoover was a tranny?

nm

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[deleted]

"I would say the general tenor of the book tends not to be revisionist - for example, it thinks the bombing did harm Germany's war effort and considers claims about the Dresden death toll to have been exaggerated."

Curious...by most of the material I've read on 8th AAF(Middlebrook's books, "Mighty Eighth", "Masters of the Air") LeMay was the innovator of the box formation, 'drop on the leader' concept & he even calculated the odds of being hit by flak & decided that 'plowing straight through' was the only logical way to go(AND HE Flew his missions JUST LIKE THAT!); by all aspects he had nerves of steel; seems to me much LeMay hate had to do with his 'reactionary neanderthal' personality postwar(IE: His authoritarian command of SAC; His role as VP candidate with George Wallace);

NM

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[deleted]

"To be fair, the episode might have been a first mission for him and he flew others, but it did contradict the "tough as nails" image projected elsewhere."

Fair enough Steve; EVERYBODY needs to get 'their cherry popped'...not having seen combat myself but having had my car shot at at an SF stoplight, I am sure I'd be acting like Albert Blythe rather than Dick Winter...

NM

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...So (even)Lemay panicked,eh?

In that case, it certainly looks life art imitating life in this masterpiece 12'o'clock High. And this apparently goes back to the whole idea of the film and that individuals who are taught to lead and do indeed lead are subject to the terror and fear just like anybody else going up into the skies to do battle and this is shown by Peck's breakdown in the film. Just because he's a "big shot" doesn't mean he's immune from the symptoms of a fear of death in a steel coffin.

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[deleted]

Can't say about Generals, but the Group Commander (as Peck was in this movie) would. The CO of the 305th Bombardment Group in 1944, Colonel Ernest Lawson, was killed in the lead plane on a raid on Hamburg on June 18, 1944 when it was shot down by flak immediately after dropping its bomb load. My uncle (Group Navigator) was on the plane. The bombardier was the only one to get out before it crashed.

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Most generals are too old or/and fat to be part of a fighting squad. General Savage (Gregory Peck) has to be a "rara avis".

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Not in the Army Air Force, the fat ones were in the Pentagon, just like Savage says in the movie....Many Army Air Force generals flew in WW 2, not just Curt LeMay..

BTW: Savage, Thru the script writer, mentions "Curt May" once in the movie, after returning form a perilous raid...

Bernie Lay Jr was the Dean Jagger (Major Stovall) character, he was General Armstrong's adjutant. He wrote this based on his experiences in WW 2..

Dale

"If those sweethearts won't face German bullets--They'll face french ones!"

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Not always during wars (at that time). Battlefield promotions and all.

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Were there actually generals that flew every mission as shown in this film? Would seem to be very dangerous for intelligence and even propaganda reasons if they would be shot down and captured...


After a quick Google search, I found eight American general officers who flew, lead, observed and were killed flying in heavy bombers in Europe and Asia during World War II. I'm sure if you take the time to properly research, you will find many more documented Brigadier, Major, Lieutenant General and General (4-stars) officers who flew combat missions during the war.


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It is also important to note that many celebrities flew as pilots, crew members, and observers during the war as well.

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Actor Brigadier General James (Jimmy) M. Stewart was a B-17 and B-24 pilot who flew 20 combat missions in Europe.

http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=1670

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Stewart#Military_service

As well as Major Clark Gable, flew as a tail gunner and observer on B-17s.

http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=1547

American short story author Bert Stiles was a B-17 co-pilot and P-51 pilot, killed in on a mission after downing a German fighter.

http://www.acmedepot.com/stiles/index.shtml

Radio and television writer Andy Rooney was an observer, writing for the Stars and stripes as observer on a B-17.

http://www.ihavenet.com/humor/Andy-Rooney-Great-B-17-World-War-II-Memo ry.html

http://rwebs.net/dispatch/output.asp?ArticleID=58p/


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bert_Stiles

Flight Officer Jackie Coogan, actor flew in the China & India-Burma Theater of Operations as a glider and liaison pilot with 1st Air Commando Group.

http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=1508

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jackie_Coogan

Wayne Morris, movie and television actor was a fighter pilot in the U.S. Navy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayne_Morris_%28American_actor%29

Baseball player Ted Williams flew as a pilot in World War II and Korea but did not fly any combat missions in the Second World War.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Williams


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Brigadier General Frederick W. Castle* (KIA)

http://www.af.mil/information/bios/bio.asp?bioID=13235

Frederick W. Castle was born in Manila, Philippine Islands, in October 1908. He graduated from the U.S. Military Academy in June 1930 after serving two years in the New Jersey National Guard. He was detailed immediately to the Air Corps for flying training which he completed at March Field, Calif., and Kelly Field, Texas, earning his wings in 1931. He served as a pilot and assistant operations officer with the 17th Pursuit Squadron at Selfridge Field, Mich., until February 1934 when he returned to civilian life, holding reserve status with the New York National Guard.

General Castle re-entered active service in January 1942 as a captain, with promotion to major in March and to lieutenant colonel in September. He was one of eight officers selected to accompany Maj. Gen. Ira Eaker to England to form the 8th Air Force. He was promoted to colonel in January 1943. He took command of the 94th Bomb Group that June, and in April 1944 became commanding officer of the 4th Combat Wing. He led many combat missions, including important ones to Regensburg, and in November he was promoted to brigadier general.

On Dec. 24, 1944, on his 30th bombing mission, General Castle was killed while leading an air division of B-17s over Liege, Belgium. En route to the target, his plane lost an engine, forcing him to drop from the lead of the formation and his aircraft was then attacked by German fighters. Since he was flying over friendly troops on the ground, General Castle refused to jettison his bombs to gain speed. All of the crew, except General Castle and the pilot, were able to escape before the plane exploded.

Medal of Honor citation:

He was air commander and leader of more than 2,000 heavy bombers in a strike against German airfields on 24 December 1944. En route to the target, the failure of 1 engine forced him to relinquish his place at the head of the formation. In order not to endanger friendly troops on the ground below, he refused to jettison his bombs to gain speed maneuverability. His lagging, unescorted aircraft became the target of numerous enemy fighters which ripped the left wing with cannon shells. set the oxygen system afire, and wounded 2 members of the crew. Repeated attacks started fires in 2 engines, leaving the Flying Fortress in imminent danger of exploding. Realizing the hopelessness of the situation, the bail-out order was given. Without regard for his personal safety he gallantly remained alone at the controls to afford all other crewmembers an opportunity to escape. Still another attack exploded gasoline tanks in the right wing, and the bomber plunged earthward. carrying Gen. Castle to his death. His intrepidity and willing sacrifice of his life to save members of the crew were in keeping with the highest traditions of the military service.

His other decorations include the Distinguished Service Cross, Legion of Merit, four Distinguished Flying Crosses, four Air Medals and the Purple Heart.

Merced Army Air Field was redesignated Castle Field in his honor on Jan. 17, 1946. The facility became Castle Air Force Base in 1948. It closed in 1995.

(Biography compiled from information in the Biographical Dictionary of World War II Generals and Flag Officers by R. Manning Ancell with Christine M. Miller; U.S. Air Force Biographical Dictionary by Flint O. DuPre, Col., U.S. Air Force Reserve; and a biography written by the Castle Air Museum Foundation, Inc., located at www.castleairmuseum.org)

Brigadier General Laverne G. Saunders

http://www.af.mil/information/bios/bio.asp?bioID=7035

Retired Feb. 1, 1947. Died Nov. 16, 1988.

LaVerne G. (Blondie) Saunders began fighting as a pilot in World War II at Hickam Field in Hawaii the day Pearl Harbor was attacked by the Japanese in 1941. In the months that followed, he fought them from the air, at Midway, in the Solomons and on Guadalcanal. In 1944 he conducted the first land-based air attack on Japan -- the beginning of the B-29 campaign that brought that country to its knees.

At Hickam Field on Dec. 7, 1941, Saunders, then a major commanding the 12th Bombardment Group, was one of the few to get a bomber into the air after the devastating surprise attack, but was too late to find and strike the Japanese fleet.

Beginning in August 1942, Saunders' B-17 group was operating out of Espiritu Santo in the New Hebrides, South of the Japanese-held Guadalcanal and the other occupied islands in the Solomons. At times they used Henderson Field at Guadalcanal for their attacks on Japanese shipping, aircraft and shore installations.

Doubling as base commander and combat commander, Saunders led his group in destroying 60 enemy planes during this period, damaging 33 others, and seriously crippling an aircraft carrier and other vessels. But the Japanese struck back with aircraft attacks and shelling of bases -- and the battle continued in the air.

When his group was attacked head-on by a swarm of Zeros as they made a second run on a Japanese target, the pilot of Saunders' B-17 was killed and the copilot seriously wounded. Saunders took the controls, landed the damaged plane near an island and helped the crew escape, inflate two boats and get ashore.

By March 1943, when Army Air Forces Chief Gen. H.H. (Hap) Arnold ordered Saunders to Washington to become a deputy chief of Air Staff, the 40-year old had earned the Navy's highest decoration (the Navy Cross), the Distinguished. Service Medal, the Distinguished Flying Cross, the Silver Star and the Purple Heart with cluster. He had been air adviser to Admiral William F. Halsey during the Solomons operations. He had been commanding general of the VII Bomber Command and chief of staff of Seventh Air Force. He had been promoted to brigadier general Dec. 25, 1942.

But General Saunders had more combat duty ahead of him. In July 1943 he began organizing and training the first B-29 wing -- the 58th Bomb Wing (Very Heavy), being assembled under the overall leadership of engineering and development expert Brigadier General Kenneth B. Wolfe. The XX Bomber Command was activated at Salina, Kan., in December with Wolfe in command. The combat groups were under operational control of Saunders' 58th Bomb Wing.

The task of developing the B-29, training its crews and basing it in India and China for employment against Japan was complex and enormous. The XB-29 first flew in September 1942; the first B-29 of 58th Bomb Wing landed in India in April 1944; and 68 B-29s under General Saunders flew against the iron and steel works at Yawata, Japan on June 15, 1944.

In a report in 1945, General Arnold disclosed a few of the difficulties. He wrote: "Time was another hurdle. It meant producing the biggest bomber in the least time with a minimum of second-guessing and redesign. Much of the credit for the solutions of these two problems rests with Major General K.B. Wolfe and Brigadier General LaVerne Saunders and their staffs. One of the most interesting aviation engineering feats of recent years is the story of the development of the power plants used on the B-29. More than 2,000 major and minor engineering changes have been made to date in getting this engine to a point of practical combat perfection."

The B-29 bombing campaign from the Asian mainland against Japan was the forerunner of operations launched from Pacific island bases. In July Saunders replaced Wolfe as commanding general of XX Bomber Command. In August Saunders was replaced by Major General Curtis E. LeMay. The command gained much experience that it passed on to other B-29 units preparing for combat. It moved to the Marianas in 1945 to take part in the final assault on Japan.

General LeMay recalls how in India in 1944, "my old classmate (in Air Corps Advanced Flying School) Blondie Saunders was holding down the fort temporarily. Blondie was due to go back to the states and get a new wing of 29s and fetch them out to Asia. He stayed around for a fortnight or so, to help me get my feet on the ground."

On an administrative flight shortly before returning to the United States, in September 1944, Blondie's B-25 crashed. LeMay helped move an engine off Saunders' crushed ankle. He spent the next 2 1/2 years in the hospital and was retired in 1947.

Born in Stratford, S.D., in 1903, Saunders graduated from the University of South Dakota in 1924 and the U.S. Military Academy in 1928. It was there that his coal-black hair inspired his nickname. An All-America tackle at West Point, Blondie Saunders was the football coach there from 1931 through 1939.

Brigadier General Nathan Bedford Forrest III* (KIA)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathan_Bedford_Forrest_III

Forrest graduated from West Point in 1928 and was commissioned a Second Lieutenant in the cavalry. In 1929 he transferred to the Air Corps and subsequently gained rank rapidly.

Promoted to Brigadier General in 1942, Forrest was serving as chief of staff of the Second Air Force when he flew missions as an observer with the Eighth Air Force in England. He was reported missing in action when the B-17 Flying Fortress he was in, leading a bombing raid on the German submarine yards at Kiel, went down on June 13, 1943. The other members of the squadron reported seeing parachutes, and hoped that the General had survived. However, Forrest was found dead on September 23, 1943 when his body washed up near a seaplane base at Ruegen Island in Germany. He was buried on September 28, 1943 in a small cemetery near Wiek, Rügen.

His family was presented his Distinguished Flying Cross, which he was awarded posthumously for staying with the controls of his B-17 bomber while his crew bailed out. The plane exploded before Forrest could bail out. Tragically, by the time German air-sea rescue could arrive, only one of the crew was still alive in the freezing water.

In 1947, two years after the war ended, his widow requested that he be returned to the United States and buried in Arlington National Cemetery. He was exhumed and reburied in Section 11 at Arlington on November 15, 1949.

Forrest was the first American general to be killed in action during the war in Europe.

Brigadier General Robert B. Williams

http://militaryhistory.about.com/od/aerialcampaigns/p/regensburg.htm

"Behind the schedule, the 230 B-17s of the 1st BW crossed the coast and followed a similar route to the 4th BW. Personally led by Brigadier General Robert B. Williams, the Schweinfurt force was immediately attacked by German fighters."

Brigadier General Kenneth Newton Walker

http://www.ozatwar.com/genwalker.htm

Brigadier General Walker arrived in Australia with Brigadier General Enis C. Whitehead in July 1942 (arrived the Saturday before 18 July 1942). On arrival, Lt. General George H. Brett sent Walker on an inspection tour of the 5th Air Force bases. Brett asked Walker to carry out a study of the existing bombardment methods being used.

At the time that Walker had arrived, there were three fighter groups, 5 bombardments groups, two transport squadrons and one photographic squadron operational in the South West Pacific Area (SWPA) comprising 1,602 officers and 18,116 men.

Walker visited the 19th Bomb Group in Townsville. He joined a B-17 Flying Fortress as an observer on an unaccompanied reconnaissance mission to search for a Japanese convoy. They found the convoy and climbed from 6,000 to 10,000 feet. They were hit in the right wing by some anti-aircraft fire. Walker flew on two other combat missions with the 19th Bomb Group.

His inspection tour took him to places such as Torrens Creek, Fenton, Iron Range and Horn Island. By the time he returned from his tour, General George C. Kenney had taken over command of the 5th Air Force from Brett.

Brigadier General Ira Eaker and General (4-stars) Jacob Devers

http://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675059496_B-17-bombers_writing-on- bombs_bombs-dropped_General-Ira-Eaker

U.S. B-17s of the 8th Air Force complete a bombing mission against German positions in Rouen, France during World War II. Ground crew men of the US Army Air Forces as they write on a bomb. Bombs being loaded onto a B-17 aircraft. Pilots and flight crews ride bicycles to a quonset hut, on an airbase in England, where they are briefed by an RAF officer, who identifies the coded target and radio codes to be used. Eighth Air Force B-17s prepare to take off. The lead aircraft is "Yankee Doodle" piloted by Brigadier General Ira Eaker.

He is followed by B-17s "Stinky", "Littleskunkface" and the "Berlinsleeper." Aerial view of the target and bombs dropping. Flak explodes well below the formation of B-17s. The formation heads home to England. A large group of Army officers stands on top of the control tower watching the returning aircraft. Brigadier General Ira Eaker jumps from his parked B-17, "Yankee Doodle" and shakes hands with Major General Carl Spaatz, Commander of the 8th Air Force. Eaker is seen later, smoking a cigar and being interviewed about the raid by a surrounding group of Army personnel. ( Note: Reportedly, the B-17 "Stinky" crashlanded in Athenry Co Galway Ireland on the 15th January 1943 with General Jacob Devers and a party of other Generals onboard, but none were injured and and all arrived safely at 2AM the same day, in Belleek, Nothern Ireland.)

Brigadier General Frank A. Armstrong, Jr.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_A._Armstrong

On February 8, 1943, Armstrong was promoted to brigadier general and made commander of the 101st Provisional Combat Wing on February 17, continuing to fly combat missions over Germany. On June 16, 1943, Armstrong advanced to command of the 1st Bombardment Wing, replacing daylight precision bombardment theorist Haywood S. Hansell, and was himself replaced at the end of July 1943 after being injured in a fire in his quarters.

During his final combat mission on April 5, 1943, 104 B-17s and B-24s attacked the Erla Works, used by the Luftwaffe for manufacturing and reconditioning Me-109 fighters, near the Antwerp suburb of Mortsel.

"Toto, I've [got] a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore."

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"Toto, I've [got] a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore."

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...so, you're saying 'yes'? ; )

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Generals flew during WW II, and those who didn't flew when they were colonels or junior officers.

However, it should also be noted that many general officers were forbidden to fly because they had access to "Ultra" ("Magic" in the Far East) and high command did not want to risk their capture. Especially after March of 1944 with the execution of Operation Neptune (the first step of Operation Overlord) approaching, restrictions on which senior officers were allowed to fly and the enforcement of those restrictions increased significantly

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Given that the excellent German army of WW II had 223 generals killed in action one might argue that the more generals put at risk the better.

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