Fighter escorts?


I had the idea that heavy bombers going on missions w/out fighter escort was usually a very bad idea. I never noticed any mention of them or saw any. What's up w/that?

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A quick and dirty history lesson:

At the start of the war, US Army Air Force doctrine was based on the assumption that heavy bombers (the B-17 and B-24) had enough machine guns on them to defend against enemy fighters. Development of long-range escort fighters was deemed unnecessary. Both premises were fatally flawed.

The movie time setting was from the Fall of 1942 to the time of the great "maximum effort" raids on German oil refineries, aircraft factories and ball bearing factories at Regensburg and Schweinfurt in August 1943. While the movie focuses on General Savage reversing the bad fortunes of the 918th Bomb Group (but suffering a nervous breakdown in the process) and Lt Col Gately redeeming himself from his perceived cowardice, the horrendous losses suffered by the American bomber groups, particularly at the hands of the German fighter force, serves as the underlying backdrop to the drama. What the movie doesn't show is that losses during the Schweinfurt-Regensburg missions were so high that the USAAF nearly abandoned the doctrine of precision daylight bombing and switched to joining the British Royal Air Force in night area bombing. (RAF losses were also high but not quite as severe.)

During this period, Allied fighters escorted the American bombers as deep into enemy territory as they could go, but the RAF Spitfire could barely get into French airspace, and the USAAF P-38 Lightnings and P-47 Thunderbolts could barely make it to the Rhine river; all the German fighters had to do was wait for them to turn around and go home, and then rip into the bomber formations.

The B-17 and B-24 were endangered species when the later models of the P-51 Mustang arrived at the front lines in December 1943. (Both the original design team and the British had worked frantically over the previous year to redesign a fast but altitude-limited attack aircraft into a long-range high-altitude fighter.) The late-model P-51 had essentially the same Rolls-Royce-designed Merlin engine as the Spitfire (although mass produced under license by Packard Motors) but its aerodynamics were much more streamlined than the Spitfire, making it about 50 to 80 mph faster and, with both a larger internal fuel capacity and the ability to carry droppable external fuel tanks, having nearly triple the range. The P-51s had the capability to match the range of the bombers and fly to the farthest points in Germany, and even make one-way trips from Britain to friendly bases in Ukraine or Italy. By the Spring of 1944, bomber losses dropped by 80%.

More on this subject is discussed on the following thread:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0041996/board/nest/116056334?p=1

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Boy, was that ever quick. Thanks.

I'm surprised that the unescorted doctrine lasted any length of time at all. I was of the mind that the problem would be so severe that no one could have helped but to learn their lesson very fast.

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Sorry guys, but I think the P-51 gets more credit than it deserves. At about the same time as the Mustang arrived, the 8th AF changed its fighter tactics. Previously, the fighters had been ordered to stay with the bombers no matter what.

Pioneering fighter pilots like Hub Zemke argued that the fighters should be allowed to hunt down Luftwaffe fighters wherever they could be found. They developed the tactic of the fighter sweep ahead of the bombers to breakup enemy fighter formations. They got the "stay with the bombers" orders changed so that they could chase German fighters all the way to the deck if need be to destroy them.

These long needed changes happened to coincide with the arrival of P-51s, and therefore led to the unwarranted conclusion that the P-51 did it all. It's not fair to the P-47 and P-38 groups that bore the brunt of the fighting prior to March 1944.

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It's not fair to the P-47 and P-38 groups that bore the brunt of the fighting prior to March 1944.


Nobody's taking anything away from the P-47 and P-38 pilots. But there are two simple facts:

1. By the end of 1944, all the fighter groups in the 8th Air Force that had been equipped with P-47s or P-38s, except for Zemke's 56th Wolfpack, were re-equipped with P-51s. The P-51s were the only ones with the range to reach Berlin with enough fuel for a sustained fight, and to fly the Britain/Ukraine/Italy shuttle missions. Zemke himself was lateral-transferred to command a P-51-equipped group, the 479th. There were very few fighter groups in the 8th Air Force that reached the theater already equipped with P-51s and didn't fly one or both of the older types.

2. General Jimmy Doolittle's assumption of command of the 8th Air Force and his change of doctrine unleashing some fighter groups to do sweeps in addition to close escort coincided with the arrival of the P-51. Would he have authorized the change in doctrine if he didn't have P-51s that could range deep enough into Germany to meet the Lufwaffe ahead of the bombers or get them on the ground? You'd have to ask him. Or get Allison DuBois or Melinda Gordon to ask him.

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Would he have authorized the change in doctrine if he didn't have P-51s that could range deep enough into Germany to meet the Lufwaffe ahead of the bombers or get them on the ground?

That's an interesting question. I'd think though that he'd have in the back of his mind the fact that if Germany was to be defeated the Luftwaffe would have to be drawn into the fight and destroyed. I don't think Doolittle would do away with Eaker's air battle philosophy. I'd think he'd have to come up with something involving fighters. It just wouldn't have been enough to only do bombing.

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Oh, yes. And Hermann Goring's famous quote wasn't "I knew the war was lost when I saw P-47s over Alsace-Lorraine." It was "I knew the war was lost when I saw P-51s over Berlin."

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And I'd sure like to see a pix of Goring when he first got wind of the fighters over Germany. It would appear Goring's skill and utility in the Reich wasn't so much in the air service since he failed in apprising himself of the Allied effort to get control of the air.

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Wasn't Goring the one that said when things looked very bad for the Germans that "the jig is up"?

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I've heard different versions of his quote about P-51s over Berlin as either "I knew the war was lost" or "I knew the jig was up". I had 3 years of German in high school, but I don't know if "the jig was up" is a literal translation and the colloquialism is the same in German, or if it's just a loose translation.

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My take on that is because Goring was such a big fun loving, partying, drinking, blowhard, his reference was to jig or dance was up since the party was over. Many web sites also attribute "...the jig is up..." as being said by Goring.

Whatever, I would have loved to see his expression when the Mustangs were flying over Berlin.

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Come to think of it any suggestions as to Goring's failings? Ultimately, he was a poor defender of the Reich. Surely one made of water vapor. I have the feeling he saw himself too much sunning and having schnapps on a beach in Brighton or whatever.

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Why no one has done a movie about Don Blakeslee and the 4th FG I'll never know. Arguably it was Blakeslee aircraft that the first over Berlin.

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Actually, they kind of did. Fighter Squadron (1948) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0040353/combined

It was, as much as anything else, a fictionalization of the history of the 4th Fighter Group. Just one problem, which I go into great detail about on my User Review:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0040353/reviews-5

As I say at the end:

What this movie did was the equivalent of filming the movie TO HELL AND BACK (in which Audie Murphy, the highest decorated soldier of WWII, actually played himself), but having Audie Murphy played instead by Neville Brand (another WWII veteran-turned-actor who was a highly decorated hero in his own right, but an older, larger and homelier man) and then making the real Audie Murphy play a German!

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Thanks, seen it, just hard to see those Mustangs with German markings.

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Well Moon & Tom, it's just a matter of the film makers not having anything "ME-109/FW-190 Looking" handy for a low budget. The Spanish Bouchons were not available, the real Me's & FW's were scrap & Russia probably didn't want to supply any LaGGs or early model Yaks.



Why can't you wretched prey creatures understand that the Universe doesn't owe you anything!?

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Nick:

If you didn't read my whole review, I said they could've used stock combat footage (like they did in Twelve O'Clock High) without taking anything away from the movie. Or they could've used the old standby, the AT-6 Texan as the FW-190.

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Oh, I went & found it, Tom...so the main thing obviously is that The ANG units who got volunteered could only use what they had on hand. That being said, I enjoyed the movie for what it was.

The thing that REALLY bugged me (a little) was the German Flak Trucks that defended the aerodromes: they used single .50 Caliber MGs mounted on the back of the Truck's cab; I thought that it would have been a 'snap' to roll out a couple of 'quad .50s' for those scenes.




Why can't you wretched prey creatures understand that the Universe doesn't owe you anything!?

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Don Blakeslee, hell! (no denigration of his contributions intended).

Why has no one ever done a biopic of the best (well documented) pilot who has ever lived:


General James H. "Jimmy" Doolittle.

The "Doolittle Raid" and the Medal of Honor awarded by President Roosevelt was a capstone, almost a foot note to the most stupendous flying career ever.

He won every racing trophy available in a racing career in which he spent less than ten years. Schneider Trophy, McKay Trophy, Bendix Trophy, he won them all.
First ever outside loop, among the first in the world, probably the first at MIT to earn a PhD in Aeronautical Engineering -- by the way, he was sent to MIT to get a MS, but he did it so quickly that he had time left to finish a doctoral dissertation. Then he got impatient for promotion and left the army air forces as a lieutenant to go into the reserves as a major. Shell Oil immediately hired him to be Vice President in Charge of Petroleum and Lubricants. He went on there to develop 100+ octane aviation fuels.

He seemed to be everywhere and helped to do everything. After the Doolittle Raid he commanded the 12th Air Force and then the 15th Air Force in the Mediterranean before swapping places with Ira Eaker and taking over the 8th Air Force in England. There, when he was told that his job was to seize control of the air over France he unleashed his fighters telling them, "Your job is no longer to protect the bombers. Now, it is to kill German airplanes anywhere you can find them." (I paraphrase, but I think that's pretty accurate)

We (the United States Air Force) have maintained that tactical approach ever since. Begin by seizing control of the air.

In spite of his accolades, they have not been enough. General Jimmy Doolittle is the most overlooked pilot ever because he was the best there ever was. The record proves it. Yet only airplane and air war buffs know who he was.

The best diplomat I know is a fully charged phaser bank.

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Bingo!

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Don Blakeslee, hell! (no denigration of his contributions intended).

Why has no one ever done a biopic of the best (well documented) pilot who has ever lived:


General James H. "Jimmy" Doolittle.

The "Doolittle Raid" and the Medal of Honor awarded by President Roosevelt was a capstone, almost a foot note to the most stupendous flying career ever.


I missed this post earlier. Doolittle does deserve that kind of recognition. There have been two theatrical movies, both which depict his Tokyo Raid, in which Doolittle was a prominent figure. Unfortunately he wasn't the central figure in either. I happen to have pages addressing these films on my website which discusses movies in which the actions of Medal of Honor recipients have been depicted on film or in miniseries:

www.lylefrancispadilla.com/doolittle.html

Thirty Seconds Over Tokyo was one of the most faithful movie adaptations ever to the book on which it was based, remarkably accurate considering that the war was still going on at the time. Unfortunately, at the time of its filming, Dootlittle had only been in command of the 8th AF for a few months and the final results of his new doctrine were still being played out in the skies of the ETO. Incidentally, Doolittle tried to bump Don Blakeslee as lead P-51 pilot for the first USAAF mission to Berlin (he was the first USAAF pilot over Tokyo in his B-25, the first over Rome in a B-17 when commanding the 15th AF, and was going for a trifecta for all three major Axis Power capitals) but Eisenhower vetoed him.

The second film is what my co-author and I classified as a "Hollywood Abomination":

www.lylefrancispadilla.com/pearl.html

'Nuff said about that one on the page itself.

In order to do him justice, Doolittle deserves a rather lengthy miniseries rather than a movie. If that ever happens, I nominate Neal McDonough of Band of Brothers and Flags of Our Fathers to play him.

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For the two movies, "Thirty Seconds..." and "Pearl Harbor," I agree with you. At least Spencer Tracy looks a little like Jimmy Doolittle.

That's a good point about a miniseries. General Doolittle's career extended through and contributed greatly to what is sometimes called the "Golden Age of Aviation." He was heavily involved in racing, aircraft development, military aviation tactics and strategy, and even touched on the creation and evolution of the airlines.

I think that may be part of the problem with selling a biopic about him. Most people would not believe it possible that one person did so much.

I also think that Neal McDounough would make an excellent Jimmy Doolittle, at least as he reached WW II age and older. If they had done a movie twenty to thirty years ago Ed Harris would have been good, although a bit too tall. Now, I think he's too old to play Doolittle before WWII.

The best diplomat I know is a fully charged phaser bank.

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No, you're just generalizing the term "gets credit". No one has ever said that the war was won by P-51s alone, and that all was lost until they arrived. You've set up a red herring, so you're not making a point.

The P-51 had the best general characteristics by far. It was designed later than the other fighters and used much more current aerodynamic knowledge in its wing airfoil and fuselage.

The P-38 however, was a much better "fighter". Its speed and concentrated armament made it the much more dangerous aircraft. A group of P-38s would destroy a similar group of P-51s if used properly in the "zoom and boom" technique. It simply didn't have the range to go as far as the P-51 due to its weight and fuel consumption. In the pacific however, it could do some very specialized long range missions of very short combat duration (airfield raids, Yamamoto attack, etc.)

The P-47 was simply tough and reliable, and that often gets the job done, whether it's the "best performer" or not. War is a team sport and like any team, even with weaker players the team effort can overcome all.

So the P-51 gets exactly the specific credit it deserves, as do the other players.

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rockmail made an important point about the P-51 relative to the Spitfire that also used the Merlin engine. The P-51 was designed much later than the Spitfire and had a totally different wing and fuselage design.

The P-47 definitely was a "safer" aircraft for the pilot in ground attack missions, because its air-cooled engine could keep going and keep the pilot out of the enemy's hands even with a cylinder shot out. The P-51 and the other allied fighters that were liquid-cooled were vulnerable to damage in the coolant line or coolant radiator.

So, each of the fighter types had their advantages and disadvantages for different types of missions. It was lucky for the allies that we had all of them to use.

My real name is Jeff

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The American war planners honestly believed that heavily armed and fast bombers massed for maximum firepower in box formations could defend themselves against fighter attack. I believe this was an underestimation of the lethality of the German inteceptors. The German fighters were faster then expected, at least when the Forts and Liberators were conceived and designed and, becasue they used explosive cannon fire as opposed to dead slug machine gun rounds, they were far deadlier to bombers with fewer rounds. German tactics also evolved. At the beginning of the air war, The Germans took generally accepted tactical pursuit angles from the rear and below the bombers. Coming from below and behind, the German had trouble catching and closing with the relatively fast bombers and, while executing their attacks, had to remain far too long in a killing zone where the rear guns, ball turret and waist guns of the bomber could be brought to bear on the closing fighters. This changed to frontal attacks, where, because of the relative high closing speed as the planes approached each other, the Geramn fighters could get in, get close, fire and get out in a big hurry withut tarrying for long where a bomber gunner could draw a bead on the fighter. Both B-17s and B-24s were, initally, deficient in forward facing machine guns and a head-on attack exposed more vital areas of the bombers; the command and control sections on the flight deck and in the nose, the frontal part of the engines, the fuel tankage in the wing roots. It was with the changing tactics that losses from German fighters (as opposed to flak, which was a constant)became prohibitive and escort fighters became imperitive. The Greamn figher aircraft were not built for endurance and had only a limited time to engage the bombers before fuel became an issue. If Allied fighters could just interfere with the speedy engagement of the German fighters, the clock would also work against the Germans in trying to destroy the bombers. When the P-51 was deployed, the allies not only had a plane which had the fuel endurance to escort the bombers, it also the endurance to fight in extended, gas guzzling, engagements and still get back to England. The "home field" advantage of the Luftwaffe was then completely nullified. All of this took time of course, and a revision of American thinking which was premised on effective bomber self-defense. It was a good idea in principal, but changing equipment and tactics necessitated and change in philosopy, as often happens in war.

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Yes, they are a good idea, a very good idea. Unfortunately, they didn't have round trip escorts until late '43/early'44. P-38s and P-47s couldn't make it to Berlin. It wasn't until the P-51, with their drop tanks, did fighter escorts make it to Berlin (March of '44). So the unescorted daylight precision bombing of the USAAF were amazingly dangerous. But they did much more damage than the RAF night time area bombing.

This will be the high point of my day; it's all downhill from here.

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Not quite correct. The RAF did far more damage due to the destructive power of its weapons. The trouble was, they were misused and much of the damage they did was irrelevant to the war effort. RAF bombers had a heavier load capacity than the USAAF aircraft because they were more lightly defended with rifle calibre machine guns instead of .50 cal. The RAF had several bombs which were heavier than the entire long range bomb load of a B-17 or B-24 and which they could carry all the way to Berlin.

As I said, unfortunately they were squandered on Harris's obsessive city raids.

The USAAF philosophy was flawed by European weather. The much-vaunted Norden bombsight was useless in cloudy conditions and so, in those conditions, they were limited to H2X blind bombing, which was no better than the area bombing of the RAF.

The most important bombing campaign of the war was the Oil Campaign. This was mostly American but with some British participation. Harris refused to cooperate on a large scale and so the RAF contribution will always be remembered as being indiscriminate and wasteful. By the middle of 1944, it was feasible for the RAF to undertake daylight raids, despite their inadequate defensive armament.

A word about fighters.

Everyone has their favourite but a dispassionate assessment will come to the same conclusion: the Mustang was a the best of the three American fighters and probably the best fighter of the war. It had, as they said, "a fighter's performance and a bomber's range". It could get into a turning fight with any German fighter and stand an excellent chance. It's dive performance was good and its climb performance matched anything else. It didn't really have any weak points. Its airframe was, in some respects, more efficient than any of the others, which is why it was as fast as it was - approximately 30mph faster than a Spitfire. At high subsonic speeds, like in a steep dive, this was negated and the Spit was more efficient. In most aspects though, it was superior.

The P-47 was a better aircraft than many give it credit for. Its only real weaknesses were poor climb performance and a lack of range. But it was fast in a dive and light on the controls. It hit hard and could take plenty and still get home.

The P-38 was like a Bf-110 on steroids. The philosophy was much the same in that it was intended to be used as a "Zerstorer". That's why the firepower was concentrated in the nose. But it had one good attack in it and then it was more vulnerable than the other two. It was more difficult to fly than a single engine fighter and with more inertia and size, its manoeuvrability was compromised. It was also a bit short on range. Its dive performance was suspect and it needed manoeuvring flaps, which created more drag, to stand any sort of a chance. As an escort, it was the lest effective of the three. It was better suited to other roles.

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The USAAF hit the target more than the Brits because of their daylight raids, so they did more damage. Yes, the Brits may have destroyed more houses and shops, but the Yanks weren't as concerned about revenge as the Brits.

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Nonsense.

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At this point early in the war, there weren't any fighters in production that could make the distance of the bomber missions. Later there were long-range fighters, just that simple.

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I hope nobody sees these arguments in terms of "America could have built long-range P-51s at the beginning of the war in 1942 and just foolishly decided not to". Because that's nonsense. The difference in the development of military technology (in aviation and all other areas) just between 1941 and 1943 was enormous, and while the U.S.A.A.F. HOPED that their bombers' armament and formation techniques would overcome enemy fighter attacks, the aviation technology they were dealing with in 1942 didn't really give them other options if they were going to conduct strategic bombing of Germany. Remember, the RAF had been conducting strategic bombing of Germany for a far longer time, and they likewise felt that long-distance fighter escorts were not an option -- thus, night bombing. If it was just a question of slapping bigger fuel tanks and external tanks on a fighter, they would have done it with the Spitfire.

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US rearmament was not complete in 1942 and the US being in the war officially meant a temporary diversion of equipment into non-operational units, as the US army etc prepared for operations in Europe. Had a Merlin-P-51 been ready in 1942, where would it have been built? Who would have built it and what other production would have been sacrificed? Compare this with Germany and Japan, plenty of first-class designs, some with the early flaws remedied, yet no factory capacity to build them or time to re-tool existing ones. Such problems afflicted the Allies early on but were solved, for the Germans etc it was the other way round.

Marlon, Claudia and Dimby the cats 1989-2005, 2007 and 2010.

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The army air force did not "hope" that the bombers armament would overcome enemy fighters. It was what prewar experience taught them. When the B-17 first flew and went into production it was faster than any fighter aircraft currently in production. However, they added better armament to the airplane resulting in a reduction in its cruise speed and fighter aircraft development added about a 100 mph to fighter top speed between 1936 and 1941.

You can compare it to the situation in 1954 - 1955. The B-47 could literally fly over Soviet territory unopposed. It flew high enough and fast enough that the MiG-15 could not catch it and even the MiG-17 with an afterburner struggled. That advantage did not last long. The B-17's advantage that existed in 1936 did not last through the beginning of the war.

The P-51 also evolved. You allude to it, but did not describe it specifically. The biggest improvement was replacing the Allison V-1710 with the Packard (Rolls-Royce Merlin under license) V-1650. The obvious question to ask is why would it be a benefit to give up 60 cubic inches of displacement and about 200 horsepower (at sea level). The Packard came with a turbocharger while the early versions of the Allison did not. In addition, the Packard had a 45 degree angle between the cylinder banks, while the Allison had a 60 degree angle. The narrower angle meant that the Packard was several inches narrower and that allowed the nose of the airplane to be made narrower. That reduced to aerodynamic cross-section of the P-51 so that the P-51B was nearly a hundred miles per hour faster than the P-51A and the A-35 Apache (ground attack version). The P-51D improved on the B/C models with a teardrop bubble canopy and a 40-gallon fuselage tank. It was magic, well deserving of its 'Merlin' engine.


The best diplomat I know is a fully charged phaser bank.

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The P-51D improved on the B/C models with a teardrop bubble canopy and a 40-gallon fuselage tank.


Actually the later B/C models had factory-installed fuselage tanks, and most of the earlier ones were retrofitted in theater. They wouldn't have been able to do escort missions to Berlin and get into a sustained fight without them.

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Thank you for the clarification, Mad Tom.


The best diplomat I know is a fully charged phaser bank.

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