MovieChat Forums > Twelve O'Clock High (1950) Discussion > Expanded Version - I've seen it!

Expanded Version - I've seen it!

posted 14 years ago by drchas
27 replies | jump to latest

It has long been rumored there was an expanded version of Twelve O'Clock High, possibly released in European theaters. Those rumors are true. I saw the expanded version while attending Air Force Squadron Officer School in 1987.

The movie was shown as part of a leadership classroom exercise. Since it was the first time I had watched the movie, I had no idea what a treat it was to see the film in it's entire glory.

I remember the expanded version being quite a bit longer, especially the opening and ending scenes. The big difference is the ending, which blows away the truncated version we've all seen. In the movie I watched, General Savage leaves his hospital bed, shakes off the cobwebs, and decides to lead the next mission. The audience can immediately see that General Savage has totally embraced his men, like Col Davenport before him. Then, during the bombing run, General Savage is fatally wounded. Believe me, there was not a dry eye in the room during that scene.

Now if FOX would only find and release this expanded version, we could have hearty discourse on the merits of these different endings.

[–] Neil_before_Zod 14 years ago

Thanks for sharing. I'll look out for this unseen version.

[–] njbucks 13 years ago

Unfortunately, this statment is a flat-out falsehood. There is no expanded version, or an ending with Savage dying. There is no evidence from the screenplay or the orignal novel, both written by Beirne Lay, that any such plotline ever existed. I have no idea what motivated the poster to fabricate this story. An indicia of the poster's hoax is his assertion, "General Savage leaves his hospital bed.." and following. Of course we all know Savage, in film, sreenplay and book was never in a hospital bed. The stuff some folks will do just to say any damn thing on the internet.

[–] drchas 13 years ago

Although this post was a little on the harsh side, I do appreciate the interest in what I had to say. As an Air Force veteran with 30 years of service, I stand by my original post. It is not a hoax. Njbucks is correct in saying that Gen Savage was not in a hospital bed. I just remember him snapping out of his mental daze as the planes returned. I apologize for that bit of confusion.

I watched this film while attending Squadron Officer School at Maxwell AFB, AL. Basically, we would watch 20-30 minutes, then discuss the leadership issues in the film. I had never seen the film before, so I was riveted by the drama. As I mentioned before, the movie I watched did not end with the counting of returning bombers (and the Maj reminiscing years later), but with Gen Savage leading a bombing mission and being fatally wounded. Again, I will never forget the tough guy fighter pilots, watching in our group of 13, with tears in their eyes at this emotional scene.

Like Njbucks, I too want to see this movie mystery cleared up. Hopefully, one day we will all get to view this expanded version.

[–] MadTom 13 years ago

I had never seen the film before, so I was riveted by the drama. As I mentioned before, the movie I watched did not end with the counting of returning bombers (and the Maj reminiscing years later), but with Gen Savage leading a bombing mission and being fatally wounded. Again, I will never forget the tough guy fighter pilots, watching in our group of 13, with tears in their eyes at this emotional scene.

Like Njbucks, I too want to see this movie mystery cleared up. Hopefully, one day we will all get to view this expanded version.

Sounds more like what happened to General Savage in the TV series. I'd put money that that's what you saw. Maybe not during SOS, but you probably saw it at another time and then your mind blended the movie and the TV episode together. (I'm retired as both a psychologist and an Army reserve components Armor/Cavalry Major, although I started out in the Air Force as an F-4 Phantom WSO. As a psychologist, I know how the mind can work with blending memories.)

Savage, who was played by Robert Lansing in the first season, was not seen onscreen in the season premiere of the second season, but his plane was being watched from a distance by then-Lt Col Joe Gallagher (essentially Ben Gately from the movie with a name change, and played by Paul Burke) who is leading another flight. Savage's plane is trailing smoke and Gallagher hears a radio message that the General has been wounded. Then another B-17 approaches Savage's formation and pulls up alongside Savage's crippled plane. There is a cut to the cockpit interior of the intruding B-17 with a swastika ring on the hand of the pilot as he shouts orders over the intercom in German, and then the gunners open fire and blow Savage's plane out of the sky before the other Americans can react after realizing that it was a captured B-17 flown by Germans. (I've only seen this episode maybe two or three times in my lifetime, but I was only 8 or 9 in 1965 when this episode first aired; it may have been the first time ever that the main character of a TV series was killed off, and I was so shocked that I can remember the details of that one episode very vividly 47 years later because of that! As vividly as I remember hearing about JFK's assassination two years earlier.)

The rest of the episode deals with Gallagher taking temporary command of the group, receiving word through neutral channels that Savage's body was recovered by the Germans and buried with full military honors. Debate among the higher ups ensues as to Gallagher's fitness for permanent command, especially after another stray B-17 approaches the group on a mission without responding to radio calls and they shoot it down, then finding out they killed an American crew whose radios were damaged. In the end, they trap and shoot down the German-flown B-17, and Gallagher gets a promotion and permanent command of the group, with the wing commander (played by Andrew Duggan) handing him a pair of bird colonel rank insignia and saying "Joe, these were mine.")

There is no way that the studio would release a version of the movie that opens with Lt Col Harvey Stovall (remember: he got promoted during the course of the movie!) going back to Archbury on a bike with the Toby mug in 1949, having his flashback to the war, and then DOESN'T end with him leaving the old abandoned airfield on the bike. Cinematographically, it's called a framing device, like old James Francis Ryan visiting the cemetery in Normandy with his family in Saving Private Ryan. It wouldn't make sense. And I've never read the original novel, but I doubt that Savage would have returned to combat after a breakdown like he did in the movie (which he never did in the series). If anyone has read the book, please clarify that for us!

I'm not disputing what you remember, but I'm a retired professional in knowing how the mind can play tricks.

[–] njbucks 13 years ago

The novel ends as follows. After the 918th returns from the mission, Savage calls Pinetree and talks to his immediate superior, General Henderson. He tells the general, "Ed, you can go ahead and cut that order on me" (earlier Henderson has told Savage that Savage has been offered a promtion and stateside command with the 2d Air Force in Colorado Springs. Savage turns Henderson down claiming the 918th is not ready for Savage to relinquish command). After completing the call, Savage gets in a jeep and drives alone toward Desborough Hall to see his love interest, Pamela. While driving, Savage reflects upon an old English poem/song, and the book ends with a quotation from that poem (paraphrased):

"I am wounded, but not yet dead.
I think I will lay me down to bleed ahwile,
and then rise back up to fight again"

Actaully, this will have made a very powerful ending to the movie as well (great poem), but it adds complications which would have been hard to explain with the excision of both the love story and the Savage/Henderson conflict in the movie. As explained, for the movie, which streamlines and omits many plot points from the book, the Stovall biking away to the tune of "Poor Little Lambs" is a wonderful and intended framing device to conclude the film. The placing of the toby on the mantle really only works as a jumpstart to Stovall's flashback (as done in the book) and would have been horribly out of place at the end of the movie. Instead the movie goes for the coughing start of engines in Stovall's mind and the high blowing grass. Wonderful evocative filmaking. Contrast that with the claimed, Savage killed in combat scenario. It has no roots in the book, or in reality as experienced by Lay in WW2. More importantly, it just would have been cliched and bad cinema. Zanuck, King, 20th Century, et al were just better artisans then that.

[–] nickm2 13 years ago

Guys:

There is a reference guide for all the aspects of 12 O'Clock High: Novel, Movie & Series...I'm sure if there was such an ending it would be in that guide--uh, assuming anybody has one handy.

EDIT: Here it is, "The 12 O'Clock High Logbook" by Duffin & Matheis:

http://www.amazon.com/12-OClock-High-Logbook/dp/159393033X/ref=sr_1_2? s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1339264915&sr=1-2&keywords=twelve+ o%27clock+high+book

Bump!

[–] drchas 13 years ago

First off, I have great respect for anyone who flew F-4s. In fact, my son's godfather was a F-4 Weapons Systems Officer out of Seymour Johnson AFB, NC. But sorry MadTom, you would lose this bet. I never watched the 12 o'clock high TV series (but I was a big fan of Combat! as a kid).

Second, the movie I watched at SOS was framed by Maj/Lt Col Stovall at Archbury.

Third, yes the movie release does have Gen Savage in a chair, during his catatonic meltdown, not a hospital bed as I mentioned. In the movie I watched, Gen Savage then awakes from a bed, and against the Doc's advice, decides to lead the next mission. Hence, my confusion over this detail.

Fourth, Gen Savage dies from wounds received while leading the following mission. His plane lands safely, but he is mortally wounded.

Fifth, our classroom discussed this ending for about 30 minutes, especially how Gen Savage had come full circle from a no nonsense tough leader to an empathetic leader, like Col Davenport before him.

Sixth, this was the first time I had seen the movie, so I had no idea it was different from the movie release. A year later I watched the film on TV and was shocked that this final scene was omitted.

To this day, I cannot believe there is not even a whisper of this extended version. I know what I saw and it was a very powerful ending. I will never forget the tears in the eyes of the pilots in the classroom as GREGORY PECK, portraying Gen Savage, died.

[–] njbucks 13 years ago

Sorry drchas, but I have to go with the weight of evidence and the context of the completed film in saying no such expanded or alternative version of the movie exists. It doesn't make sense that such an ending was conceieved and filmed when no such scenario exists in the Lay/Bartlett novel or in any extant screenplay, also written by the same two men. It doesn't make any sense either. Savage's breakdown is the ultimate conflict in the story. He had suppressed the natural identification with his men, something Davenport had not been able to do, in order to be an effective leader in a wartime setting and to set an example for his men. To continue on and have Savage die in combat afterward dilutes that point and doesn't advance the storyline. You talk about Savage coming full circle and becoming Davenport. That is not what happens at all. Davenport was a failure as a leader, and that has to be understood otherwise what Savage does in the unfolding plot is meaningless. Ultimately, Savage fails too, but only after gving a "mamximum effort". That is what the story is all about; what maximum effort means and the price that one pays for it. Savages death does not advance that storyline and, in fact, dilutes it a great deal which is a good arguement for why it would never have been part of the story.

Think about it this way also. Lay and Bartlett were both 8AF staff veterans. Do you really think they would have written a scenario where a general officer after having suffered a total emotional and mental breakdown, witnessed by a bomber commnad staff officer (Davenport) woud have been allowed to lead an air strike in the immediate aftermath of such breakdown? The answer is, of course not. Twelve O'Clock High was uniformly praised by 8AF vets as having gotten it right. Do you think they would have chucked all that verisimillitude out with such a unbelievable scene?

Also consider the economic impact. Your alleged 15-20 minutes of extra celluloid would have cost huge sums of 1949 dollars and studios simply did not do that back then. Studios did things lean and mean and there weren't director's cuts anticipated for future revenue in home video sales. It just doesn't make sense.

It also doesn't make sense that for the rest of their lives, Peck, Jagger, King, Zanuck, Lay, or anybody else involved with the production of this film would make no mention of such a scene, if in fact the scene existed. This was a major motion picture which made a lot of money and was the source of much interest, first by the average movie reviewer and goer, and later by afficiados of history, flight and the millitary. There would be some firsthand information about this ending if it existed, yet there is none.

Like I said, sorry, but the overwhelming weight of evidnece is just against you.

[–] MadTom 13 years ago

More theories here.

For whatever it's worth, drchas reports having 30 years of service; surely he must have done an overseas tour somewhere along the line; I can't speak for nowadays with expanded satellite services, but back in the '80s, the Armed Forces Network broadcast almost nothing but reruns of old series from the '60s including Twelve O'Clock High. I can remember my tour in Korea where AFN was almost Orwellian in the way that, no matter where you were on the base, if there was a TV present, it was the same program that was on. It's very easy to subliminally absorb whatever was on the screen without being aware of it in that environment.

Also, there is one WWII movie I can think of where a B-17 aircraft commander makes a successful bomb run but is mortally wounded, with a tearjerker death scene after they get back on the ground: Air Force (1943) with John Ridgeley as the doomed AC. (The trivia section for that film here on IMDb claims that William Faulkner wrote that scene uncredited.) That movie was set in the Philippines during the initial Japanese invasion of 1941-42, and the B-17 was an earlier B-17B model with a different side view (a much smaller and differently shaped vertical stabilizer) from the B-17Es and Fs used in Twelve O'Clock High (both the movie and series). But as I said in my first post on this thread, the mind tends to gather fragments of different memories and synthesize them into a new whole new memory. Lawyers cross-examining eyewitnesses in trials are proof of that.

One other thought: if this "Expanded Version" did get filmed, I can't imagine how Air University at Maxwell AFB would be the only entity in the world to end up with a copy of it!

[–] njbucks 13 years ago

MadTom opines:

"One other thought: if this "Expanded Version" did get filmed, I can't imagine how Air University at Maxwell AFB would be the only entity in the world to end up with a copy of it!"

Agreed 100% Tom. Drchas wondered aloud about why there "hasn't been a whisper" about this ending and the simplest answer is the most persuasive: there is no alternate ending. Not that it will make the slightest differance to him as he is convinced that he saw Gregory Peck playing Frank Savage die at the end of Twelve O'clock High and discussed it in detail with teary-eyed classmates at Maxwell. I'm more then reasonably sure that event never happened, but am fresh out of ideas as to why drchas is so certain of his recollection.

[–] drchas 13 years ago

I actually do appreciate all interest in my reporting of deleted scenes. I'm now motivated to write to Fox Studios to see what they have to say, not to prove that I'm correct, but because I know there are many movie/WWII buffs that need to view these deleted scenes.

Yes, I did serve overseas, before attending SOS, at RAF Lakenheath, in the early 80's. Unfortunately, the Queen did not allow competition with her BBC, and there was no AFTV or radio (so much for MadTom's theory).

I watched this movie for the first time in a classroom over 4 hours. Basically, watch 20-30 minutes, discuss leadership techniques. There is no mistaking what I watched. It is not some blended memory. I agree with the premise that it makes no sense for the AF to have a copy of the movie with deleted scenes, but they did. We could debate forever, which version is better. Personally, Gen Savage dying as a hero was incredibly moving.

Deleted scenes have been part of movies since movies were made. If I can discover further information I will post it here.

[–] njbucks 13 years ago

I'm sorry drchas, but your memory must be faulty. If such a scene existed it would first appear in a shooting script for the film. To the best of my knowlege it does not. Motion picture studios make careful annotations of a shooting schedule (time being money) which includes what resourses (actors, technicians, locales, cameras, lights, etc) are utilized on what scene. Again, to the best of my memory and the availble references on the film, nothing of the kind exists for your addendum. One would also have to beleieve that a scene which never appeared in any release version ot the film, shows up years and years later at a millitary base. That simply makes no sense at all. The scene also makes no sense in the context of the movie as released. When Savage is recovering from his malaise, he is told by Davenport that Gately led the mission and the bombing results were good with acceptable losses. It is now axiomatic that the leadership and discipline is in place which means Savage is no longer needed (as was implied earlier when Pritchard asks Davenport to identify subordinate officers in the 8AF who can take command of a bomb group in an emergency). It would make no sense for Savage to fly one more mission, nor would he have been allowed to do so. Your instructors at Maxwell were showing the film as an exercise in leadership. How does a guy going outside the lines in doiung something which was unnecessary, and, in fact, recklessly dangerous (like every pilot in the group wouldn't know the boss had cracked up the day before? Some leader), demonstrate effective leadership? Frankly, your story of a bunch of officers crying their eyes out upon viewing the scene in question doesn't have much of the ring of truth either.

I know none of this will convince you that your recollection is faulty, but I hope I have given reasons for you to examine your recollection critically. One thing that may help you in that regard is that from all of your statements about this additonal ending, not just here but on Amazon and just about every other place which has a forum for discussing the film you have gotten exactly zero support form anyone else who has seen, or ever heard of such a scene, in 12 O'Clock High. That should tell you something.

[–] randyinsandiego 12 years ago

drchas, stick to your guns. I believe I saw the same version in The Basic School in 1981, where Savage dies in the cockpit. My minds a bit polluted because of all the times I've watched the commercial release. There is NO WAY the scenes would ever be confused with the television show.

The USMC used Twelve O'Clock High for decades to teach leadership. Alas, my son tells me they don't use it anymore.

[–] drchas 11 years ago

Thanks Randy in San Diego. I did write to Fox Studios about this, but never got a reply. I did find the following statement on a LSU (TigerDroppings.com) blog about the movie: " In the original cut, GEN Savage dies at the end. Test audiences didn't like Gregory Peck getting killed, so they reshot it." OK - this is not proof, but I'll keep hunting. I know what I saw and it was Gen Savage dying from wounds suffered during a final bombing run.

[–] deveed 11 years ago

One other thought: if this "Expanded Version" did get filmed, I can't imagine how Air University at Maxwell AFB would be the only entity in the world to end up with a copy of it!

You know I'd think this is an interesting point regarding this 'expanded edition' of the film. If there is an expanded edition perhaps it would be logical to assume
some copies may have had a chance to get out from the studio? Also, any idea of bona fide showings of the film with different scenes say in Britain or on the continent especially after '49? I figure at least a 'few' Europeans had to have seen it if in fact it was made. And I guess it cojld help to ask those who are left from the film. I'm sure they could provide some info (or not!) on the making of this great and very popular film and various scenes. An answer has to be out there! This is probably just like the hunt to find where did that that 'Toby jug' that was on that mantel wind up????? ok who's got it?????

[–] MadTom 11 years ago

First drchas said

Then, during the bombing run, General Savage is fatally wounded. Believe me, there was not a dry eye in the room during that scene.

and

Fourth, Gen Savage dies from wounds received while leading the following mission. His plane lands safely, but he is mortally wounded.

Then randyinsandiego said:

drchas, stick to your guns. I believe I saw the same version in The Basic School in 1981, where Savage dies in the cockpit.

(BTW, Randy, what "basic school" in what service was it?)

Not to split hairs, but which is it? He dies on the ground after landing the plane or he dies in the cockpit on the mission? This possible inconsistency further suggests that this may be a figment of one's imagination. (I say again, suggests, not indicates!) I'd like to ask both posters to please separately clarify as best as they can what they remember seeing in this alternate ending.

Was he shot from Book Depository with a 6.5mm Mannlicher-Carcano? From the grassy knoll with a 7.9mm Mauser? Personally, I suspect that there was an overambitious colonel from Bomber Command staff with blonde hair and a handlebar mustache who was riding along in the Picadilly Lily who wanted command of the 918th, and waited for Savage to go back to the galley (kitchen) for a cup of coffee and bashed his head in with a wrench!

[–] 11 years ago

[deleted]

[–] nickm2 11 years ago

Tom there IS a book about the novel, movie & series:

"The 12 O'Clock High Logbook" by Duffin & Matheis:

http://www.amazon.com/12-OClock-High-Logbook/dp/159393033X/ref=sr_ 1_2? s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1339264915&sr=1-2&keywords=twelve+ o%27clock+high+book

If that alternate scene exists, it probably would be mentioned in this book.

[–] deveed 11 years ago

If that alternate scene exists, it probably would be mentioned in this book.

But even if it's mentioned does it necessarily follow that that those scenes are a a fact? Really if you can get a film reel that'll be the 'smoking gun'.

[–] nickm2 11 years ago

The book is the 'clue'...if proof exists, that's the place to start.

[–] deveed 11 years ago

Yes it could help. You know with me to solve this puzzle I'd like to take a trip one of these days and maybe go to a pub say in Chelveston, England (or really anywhere in the UK where there was a USAF bomb group base). Chelveston was the home of the the 305th bomb group. As for Chelveston, it's noted in the film credits that a US colonel John H. deRussy (Group operations officer) helped out in the making of the film. Now I figure some ale and talk could sort of open up things on those scenes and other great interesting air war things too..............;-).....

[–] dsfa2020 10 years ago

This is a bit off topic, but I just wanted to mention a thread, funnily enough at another Gregory Peck movie, 'The Boys From Brazil' where there is an argument ongoing about a scene where a character may or may not have worn a certain piece of underwear. I find discussions like this intriguing. It's a bit like lake monsters or Bigfoot. People claim to have seen them, but no 'smoking gun' has been produced.

[–] markystav 8 years ago

I have not only bought and read the book "The 12 O'Clock High Logbook" but I have actually corresponded with its author, Alan Duffin, on this and many other subjects. I specifically wrote to ask of any possible alternate ending. He knows many of the people involved with the film and the TV series and he ASSURES me that the film we all know is the ONLY film that was ever made in the way it is remembered by almost everyone:

Savage goes into a deep sleep, as Keith Davenport removes his boots. Stovall leaves the building, slowly looking up at B-17s circling above, then, a slow fade back to civilian Stovall coming out of the field, mounting his bike - with the toby still in the box in the basket where he left it - and riding off, as the closing credit music swells.

There is NO alternate ending. It is likely a matter of people remembering bits of the TV show and assigning them to the film.

[–] michaeldecker 8 years ago

This is a quite bizarre thread - given all the evidence it seems we can rule out any such 'extended version', and the original poster is a victim of false memory syndrome, which is something that can affect all of us at some stage.

BTW - was this the first 'war film' depicting fallibility in what were almost current events?

[–] tiller088 11 years ago

"(BTW, Randy, what "basic school" in what service was it?)"

I'll assume that was a serious (though humorously intended) question, MadTom, so I'll stick with a serious answer.

In all the branches of the US military, there is only one The Basic School - it is the Marine Corps officer training school at Quantico, VA. All USMC officers graduate from TBS before they move on to their next job, whether they are aviators, JAG officers, supply/logistics, etc., or infantry. That is why the saying goes that every Marine officer is a platoon leader!

[–] MadTom 11 years ago

It was an honest question, no humor intended. I don't presume to know everything about the two branches of service (Air Force and Army) that I was in, let alone the other branches. I wouldn't expect you to know that within the Army each branch (Armor, Infantry, Field Artillery, Air Defense Artillery, Engineer etc) has its own school and basic officer and enlisted courses within these schools. A lot of terminology is different in each branch of service. One of the toughest adjustments I made when I interservice transferred from the Air Force to the Army in 1985 was relearning the acronyms: in the Air Force, AOB was the lineup of air combat forces in theater and BDU was a concrete practice bomb I dropped from my airplane; in the Army, AOB was a course taught at Fort Knox and BDU was the field uniform we wore.

[–] ccorraliza 8 years ago

Great anticipation in thread hearing about the extended cut to find we have no documentation for it.

Similar happened to me regarding a Starsky & Hutch episode. I was 12 and recalled It differently than it occurred.