MovieChat Forums > The Heiress (1949) Discussion > What if they HAD married?

What if they HAD married?

posted 15 years ago by benhere
46 replies | jump to latest

Would Catherine have been, and remained, happy? Would Morris have been a good, or at least reasonable, husband?

This is pure speculation but I believe that the marriage would have lasted, with each accepting the reality of the situation and making the best of it. Morris was smart enough to know that his continued comfort relied on his ability to maintain Catherine's sense of security. I also think that beyond his fortune hunting, he had at least a basic respect for Catherine. Although his betrayal was a cruel act (more an act of cowardice), I don't think he was generally a cruel man.

Catherine would have, over time, come to realize that Morris' motivations were primarily mercenary. But she genuinely loved him in the beginning and would learn to accept her lot in life (the alternative being old-maidhood, a humiliating situation in 19th century society).

To speculate further, I believe Morris would give Catherine children, hoping that she would then redirect much of her energy towards raising a family. I even think that Morris might have used his brains and new-found wealth to make good in the world, either in business or philanthropy.

Alternatively, the whole thing could have devolved into "Who's Afraid of Virgina Woolf".

If I had choice of weapons with you, sir, I'd choose grammar.

[–] hka-3 15 years ago

"I even think that Morris might have used his brains and new-found wealth to make good in the world, either in business or philanthropy."

Or Morris may have continued doing one of the things he did best, which was spending. He previously had a bit of an inheritance and wasted it.

[–] ceciliaquick 8 years ago

Just saw this tonight. I agree with you. More than once, the Doctor references the fact that when Morris had money, he spent on himself, buying himself the finest gloves, but didn't spend a dime to help his sister, who was obviously financially strapped and had a bunch of kids. He was selfish and greedy and his true personality would have come out once he had his hands on Catherine's money.

[–] Siriry 15 years ago

I think it would depend on when the marriage took place. If they had eloped the original night after Katherine's return from Europe I think Morris would've had no respect for Katherine and would have treated her much like her father did. At that time he probably would've run thru her money and possibly deserted her for anoter woman. If they had married at the end by that time Morris had seen her strength and had gained respect for her. I think they could've had a satisfactory marriage with mutual love.

Siri

Don't Make Me Have to Release the Flying Monkeys!

[–] Forlorn_Rage 8 years ago

If they had married at the end by that time Morris had seen her strength and had gained respect for her. I think they could've had a satisfactory marriage with mutual love.

I disagree. Oddly enough, the newfound qualities Morris respects in Catherine are precisely the reasons why she shut him out. He didn't even bother to take his time or try to earn back her respect when he came back. Rather than becoming "older and wiser" as he had claimed to have become, he became "greedier" as Catherine said.

On top of that, he's become a much bigger fool believing that he could win back Catherine at all, much less so quickly. He didn't even notice how she kept physically recoiling from him and was barely maintaining her composure while speaking to him. At least before, he was much more believable and a much better liar, inspite of Catherine's prior gullibility.

Catherine may have tolerated him if he had grown to be a wiser man and a better liar, but he didn't. For these precise reasons, Catherine could barely tolerate him for that final evening he visited her. I seriously doubt she would've tolerated his foolishness for a lifetime.

[–] Kd5000 14 years ago

I recently saw The Little Foxes. Catharine might have ended up as miserable as Aunt Birdie! I think Clift's character would have started having affairs with attractive women shortly after the marriage. Since divorce wasn't common at the time, Catharine would be stuck with him.

[–] digitaldiva 14 years ago

Hi Kd5000,

Agreed. Morris was a charming rotter and once he was married to her and had full control of her estate, he would have shown his true colors.

[–] Regina_Giddens 14 years ago

Yeah she never would have been happy with him. If they had married, he would have turned into the play boy douche-bag he was. It was a blessing in disguise for Catherine to be jilted, because the pain when he showed his true colours and she realised her father was right after they married would have been so much greater than realising it when she did.

But you are, Blanche. You are in that chair!

[–] bron-tay 14 years ago

Agreed. He didn't become a fortune-hunter because he wanted to do something useful and thrifty with money; he did it because he wanted a life of pleasure. He would have used Catherine's money on other women, gambling, personal extravagance, and maybe some wild investments.

I think he and Catherine would have settled into a mutual hatred society but kept together to avoid the scandal of divorce and for the sake of the kids. Sort of like Bill and Hillary Clinton, who remain together out of anything but love.

~~~~~~~
Think cynical thoughts.

[–] HillieBoliday 14 years ago

....included...banging the upstairs maid! This man cared nothing about
anyone but himself! The reprehensible, irresponsible way he treated and
regarded his sister, was indication enough of how he was going to treat
Catherine!

"OOO...I'M GON' TELL MAMA!"

[–] digitaldiva 14 years ago

Hi HillieBoliday,

I watched the movie last night. When Catherine and her father were in Europe, Morris ate Dr. Sloper's food every night with the Catherine's aunt, smoked Dr. Sloper's cigars(didn't even pick-up the cigar bands, the slob) and drank his liquor. I agree with you about Morris's sister, he did nothing to help her. Morris was handsome, charming and manipulative, not good traits in a husband...like you I bet he would have tried to bang the upstairs maid, the downstairs maid and the cook too!

[–] butaneggbert 8 years ago

What an excellent comparison! Right on the nose.

_______________

Nothing to see here, move along.

[–] richard-2266 14 years ago

I am sure the marriage would have worked.Remember the sensible aunt's
words 'He may take very good care of Catherine and her money and
make her very happy.'
She would have had several children who would give her the love others
had denied her, would have been very busy and fulfilled.
Her father cruelly denied her this chance and doomed her to the lonely
empty existence she then had.

[–] liscarkat-2 14 years ago

Catherine's aunt was anything but 'sensible'!

[–] richard-2266 14 years ago

I meant the other aunt who said those words not Aunt Penniman

[–] happybkwrm 13 years ago

Remember, Aunt Elizabeth (the sensible one) was "family" to Morris in a way. Her daughter was marrying Morris' cousin Arthur. She was probably predisposed to think well of him.

[–] Forlorn_Rage 8 years ago

Her father cruelly denied her this chance and doomed her to the lonely
empty existence she then had.

While Austin Sloper was a cruel man in his own right, we can't forget it is Catherine who thwarts her own engagement by telling Morris that neither she or her father would ever yield to each other. Lavinia even asks her why she wasn't more clever about her handlingof the situation.

Also, Morris is so greedy that if he couldn't have the entire Sloper fortune, he wouldn't even stay for part of it or wait and entertain the possibility that he may inherit the rest of the fortune at all.

The foolishness on both parties doomed any chance of a marriage. Austin merely helped to expose these weaknesses ahead of time through revealing his own weakness and contempt for his daughter.

[–] mdonln 8 years ago

Forlorn_Rage says > While Austin Sloper was a cruel man in his own right...

I don't think that's fair. Dr. Sloper tried to prepare Catherine for a good life. He wanted her to have fun, find love, and be happy. He encouraged her to travel, socialize, and participate in youthful activities. He even invited Lavinia to stay on to help support his efforts with Catherine.

Unfortunately, Catherine kept getting in her own way. Her shyness and socially awkward behavior was obvious to everyone including her father. He knew she was headed for trouble but what more could he have done?

When Morris came along he had to be realistic. He knew his daughter hadn't charmed and attracted him with her great beauty or her personality. He knew Morris was a sophisticated guy who couldn't have much in common with Catherine. Still, he tried to give him the benefit of the doubt. He talked to Morris' sister to see if he had misjudged him. His sister only confirmed what he already suspected.

He objected to the marriage not to hurt Catherine but to protect her. He knew how devastated she would be to discover she'd made a big mistake and married a man who never loved her. He tried to warn Catherine but she wasn't equipped to understand what was obvious to her father and both her aunts.

Out of sheer frustration Sloper said some hurtful things to Catherine but at that point he probably hoped brutal honesty would finally snap her out of her delusions. It didn't work. She only dug in deeper and, instead of turning on Morris she turned on her father.

It's possible Catherine could have been happy with Morris but Sloper had no way of knowing that. The evidence suggested the opposite was much more likely so he had to act accordingly. Morris would have never granted her a divorce; not without a large payout or an even larger scandal so she might have been stuck with him; having to live out her days in a miserable situation. Her father could predict what probably lay ahead but Catherine was blinded by Morris' lies.

In the end, Sloper's predictions were right. Catherine became a bitter old maid determined to keep to herself. If Sloper believed Morris really did love Catherine, I don't think he would have cared that he was a penniless spendthrift with expensive tastes. What mattered to Sloper was not the money but his daughter's continued happiness.

Woman, man! That's the way it should be Tarzan. [Tarzan and his mate]

[–] Forlorn_Rage 8 years ago

I don't think that's fair. Dr. Sloper tried to prepare Catherine for a good life. He wanted her to have fun, find love, and be happy. He encouraged her to travel, socialize, and participate in youthful activities. He even invited Lavinia to stay on to help support his efforts with Catherine.

Unfortunately, Catherine kept getting in her own way. Her shyness and socially awkward behavior was obvious to everyone including her father. He knew she was headed for trouble but what more could he have done?

When Morris came along he had to be realistic. He knew his daughter hadn't charmed and attracted him with her great beauty or her personality. He knew Morris was a sophisticated guy who couldn't have much in common with Catherine. Still, he tried to give him the benefit of the doubt. He talked to Morris' sister to see if he had misjudged him. His sister only confirmed what he already suspected.

He objected to the marriage not to hurt Catherine but to protect her. He knew how devastated she would be to discover she'd made a big mistake and married a man who never loved her. He tried to warn Catherine but she wasn't equipped to understand what was obvious to her father and both her aunts.

Out of sheer frustration Sloper said some hurtful things to Catherine but at that point he probably hoped brutal honesty would finally snap her out of her delusions. It didn't work. She only dug in deeper and, instead of turning on Morris she turned on her father.

It's possible Catherine could have been happy with Morris but Sloper had no way of knowing that. The evidence suggested the opposite was much more likely so he had to act accordingly. Morris would have never granted her a divorce; not without a large payout or an even larger scandal so she might have been stuck with him; having to live out her days in a miserable situation. Her father could predict what probably lay ahead but Catherine was blinded by Morris' lies.

In the end, Sloper's predictions were right. Catherine became a bitter old maid determined to keep to herself. If Sloper believed Morris really did love Catherine, I don't think he would have cared that he was a penniless spendthrift with expensive tastes. What mattered to Sloper was not the money but his daughter's continued happiness.

Um, I'm afraid your long, detailed post was wasted... My conclusion of Dr. Sloper isn't based off any of the scenes you mentioned. If anything, the entirety of my last post was mostly defending Austin Sloper and his actions regarding Morris.

Despite defending him, I still maintained that he was a cruel person, particularly because the exchange early in the movie between him and Elizabeth.

When he talks about his wife while she was alive, his eyes and words are shining with praise. But then, when he talks of Catherine he becomes contemptuous when he practically spat out, "This is her child." His entire tone said that he looked down on Catherine and that she wasn't worthy of being her mother's (or his) child.

The only time he genuinely complimented in the film, he ruined the moment by (again) bringing in his wife and expressing the superiority of his wife's beauty and style over his daughter. He's like that for the entire movie, barely concealing his contempt and dislike for his child, which is only brought about out in the open because of his breaking point with Morris.

Austin may have "loved" Catherine as he claimed as he showed by refusing to ever "disown" her, but that doesn't mean that he "liked" her. Catherine was correct when she said that.

Hell, I was annoyed by Catherine at times, but Austin had no reason for despising or disliking his daughter the way he did. In fact, he had all the more reason to love a sweet, shy girl like Catherine who loved him and tried very hard to please him.

I notice that the only time he (genuinely) softened his view and tone with Catherine was after her tone and manner changed in light of Morris' abandonment. His health was failing, while his daughter gained a newfound strength (and bitterness) and he could no longer fight back against her.

It makes me all the more sad thinking about it because when Catherine really needed her father's support and love, he wasn't willing to give it to her. He was only willing after she had already disowned him in her heart and no longer had any need for his love or approval.

[–] mdonln 8 years ago

Forlorn_Rage says > Austin may have "loved" Catherine as he claimed as he showed by refusing to ever "disown" her, but that doesn't mean that he "liked" her. Catherine was correct when she said that.

1. He probably didn't like her but that's different than despising her, being cruel towards her, or being contemptuous of her; as Catherine said. She wasn't likable in the sense she wasn't good company: she didn't make conversation, she wasn't witty, they didn't share any interests, and she was just boring. As her father, Sloper also worried she wasn't living up to her full potential and couldn't look out for herself.

He didn't dislike her because she wasn't her mother though that point was painfully obvious and a constant reminder of what he'd lost. Think of it in terms of baking a cake. You put in all the right ingredients but it doesn't turn out the way you expected. You're going to be especially unhappy with the results knowing the quality and care you had put into it doesn't match what you got out of it. You would be embarrassed to serve it to your guests and, if you do, and the rave over it you won't believe a word of it. Either they have really bad taste or they're humoring you with their dishonesty.

2. Leaving Catherine her full inheritance didn't prove her father's love. The money was really the biggest problem in her life and he knew it. He didn't want to disinherit his only child because he wanted to provide for her after he was gone but it probably weighed heavily on him knowing the money would cause her to end up exactly as she did; alone and unable to trust the motives of any suitor.

If she had other things going for her, the money may not have factored into the equation as heavily as it did but it would still be a problem. Ironically, if her assets were great beauty, a glowing personality, and a sharp wit, it would be expected that men would be attracted to her for those reasons and it wouldn't matter. Women were expected to find husbands who could be good providers. Their other traits didn't matter nearly as much but the reverse was not acceptable. Morris had the looks, intelligence, wit, and was likable but as a man they were not considered sufficient assets for a good husband.

3. My point is that it wasn't Sloper's but society's conditions that were not being met. Sloper's 'dislike' of Catherine would have been on par with the how the parent of an unambitious son would feel; especially if his father had been very business-minded and successful. It's more frustration than dislike but it would be expressed in such a negative fashion it would be hard to distinguish.

Similarly, the money issue was societal as well. A Gold-digging female raised warning flags as well but only if they were from the wrong side of the tracks or were from outside the family's social class. Morris was within the Sloper's social circle especially since a close relative of his had married one of the Sloper's close relations.

Those standards didn't just exist at the time the story was set; they continue to exist today. The gender roles have changed only slightly.

Woman, man! That's the way it should be Tarzan. [Tarzan and his mate]

[–] StarrySkyWaltz 14 years ago

Many posters here make excellent points. I'd like to think he would have behaved and that having wealth would make him content and that he would continue to show Katherine love and adoration, but perhaps not. Maybe he would have changed later and made her miserable. She would likely have children through the marriage though and in a way I think she would have been better off taking a chance with him than how she likely ended up---a slightly mad old maid. She had crazy eyes! She reminded me of Miss Havisham from Great Expectations.

[–] madetwolast 14 years ago

As others have said, they would have married and Morris would have cheated.
They would have had children, and Morris would continue to cheat throughout the marriage. He'd love and respect her money tremendously, and tolerate her.
If she was a pushover, I think he'd be mean to her. If she proved herself strong to him, he'd grudgingly respect her.
I doubt that Morris would be around much for Catherine and the children.

[–] movie_fashion_girl-1 13 years ago

Morris would certainly have been less abusive and probably more affectionate than her father had been.

"There is no half-singing in the shower, you're either a rock star or an opera diva." -Josh Groban

[–] AZINDN 13 years ago

First of all, Austin Sloper would have disinherited Catherine for marrying so beneath her. With an income of only 10,000, the lifestyle that Morris had become accustomed would have been severely reduced in circumstances. Although rich, they would not have been wealthy, and he would have not curtailed his comfort for hers, that would never have been accepted for the time period. Women were treated as little more than infants and expected to breed and maintain their husband's home. Catherine would not have come to the painful and blistering realization that Morris married her only for her money as she does when he deserts her for California, nevertheless, the realization would eventually come with her maturity and his ungentlemanly behavior towards her. She would no doubt be cut from society with a husband beneath her social status and Morris would also be overtly cruel once the father dies and he comes to realize she will never have the entire fortune. He'd probably desert her after marrying her for California, and her status would be as a literal married widow until he either returned or she received word he'd been killed over a gambling debt. That's my alternative storyline to the woeful tale of Catherine Sloper, but then the author never asked me to ghost for him.

-- If Ewan McGregor were a lollipop I'd be a diabetic strumpet --

[–] sita_chez 12 years ago

did you not pay attention - her father made it clear he never would have disinherited her, even she said he only said it to test Morris, something which he failed at supremely. he lived with his clearly poor sister so having 10,000 a year still would have been an immense amount to him, at the time 10,000 a year would still have made them wealthy. Morris was an idiot, her should of realised her love for him was enough and then they still would have had money, but no he only wanted 30,000 minimum, yet he never managed to land another rich woman did he?

*beep* me gently with a chainsaw" Heathers

[–] vinidici 13 years ago

Face it, fellow thread-ers, beside the word "cad" in the dictionary is a picture of Morris!

I don't have the slightest bit of pity for Morris at the end. He'll get over it and pull his con-artist act on the next eligible, upper-crust girl that comes along and will be OK from that point on (but I'll be sorry for that "next girl!")

Who REALLY deserves our pity is Catherine and her father. The old man died in anguish on his deathbed, realizing too late how he had wronged his daughter all her life. And Catherine was now set for the rest of her life as a bitter and cynical old maid.

Whatever you do, DO NOT read this sig--ACKKK!!! TOO LATE!!!

[–] movie_fashion_girl-1 13 years ago

Her father deserved every bit of misery he got. After I read the book I got the distinct impression that Catherine's mother was probably unhappy, (Dr Sloper seemed to only appreciate, and later remember her for her beauty)
and Dr Sloper certainly made Catherine unhappy, and helped to ruin her happiness.

"There is no half-singing in the shower, you're either a rock star or an opera diva." -Josh Groban

[–] maharani78 13 years ago

Does she end up an 'old maid' though? I thought her giving up the embroidery was a signal that she was starting on a new chapter of her life. Also so what if she did stay single? She is not all that bitter as the scene after her father's death shows her having had a nice visit with her extended family and the kids seem to like her.
I thought the ending was quite empowering

[–] Forlorn_Rage 8 years ago

I don't have the slightest bit of pity for Morris at the end. He'll get over it and pull his con-artist act on the next eligible, upper-crust girl that comes along and will be OK from that point on (but I'll be sorry for that "next girl!")

I doubt it. Although still handsome, he was much older and had no prospects to his name. I doubt any "girl" or her family would accept him, especially when they could probably do much better. Morris' only chances would've been to find a gullible (or just lonely) rich, older widow or spinster without caring friends or relatives to dissuade her.

[–] mdonln 8 years ago

vinidici says > Face it, fellow thread-ers, beside the word "cad" in the dictionary is a picture of Morris!... Who REALLY deserves our pity is Catherine and her father. The old man died in anguish on his deathbed, realizing too late how he had wronged his daughter all her life.

How can both things be true? If Morris was a cad, and I agree that he was, how could Sloper have been wrong?

Ultimately, whatever he may have said or done, Sloper did not keep Catherine from marrying Morris. Catherine was ready to leave that very night in spite of her father's disapproval. Morris could have married her, proved her father wrong and lived a comfortable life. He's the one who, like a weasel, bailed out on her.

Catherine was now set for the rest of her life as a bitter and cynical old maid.

You can't blame her father for that. Catherine's association with Morris cost Dr. Sloper dearly; first he lost his daughter, then he lost his life. Even though things did not work out as she had hoped, Catherine ultimately benefited from having known Morris.

As her father said, she finally found her voice. She stood up to him and was strong and determined in her resolve to live her own life. She felt what it was like to love someone, even though the object of her love was not worthy of it. She experienced pain and loss and survived. She was no longer naive and gullible; she became a rich woman; and she was in full control of her own life.

There was no reason for her to continue on living the life of a reclusive old maid. She had plenty of options and was still young enough to pursue them. Her whole life lay ahead her; a life full of possibilities. If she failed to seize those opportunities it would be her own fault.

Woman, man! That's the way it should be Tarzan. [Tarzan and his mate]