MovieChat Forums > The Seventh Veil (1946) Discussion > Puzzled about a few things

Puzzled about a few things


In the middle of a James Mason marathon (love THE VOICE) I watched the Seventh Veil again. Though I really like the film and the story, overall, I have some questions that, even though I've re-watched the scenes a few times, I cannot quite comprehend.
1) The scenes from Copenhagen: Nicholas tells Francesca about being asked for at the Royal Albert Hall. Before he comes in she says that he never knocked before entering her room : "that's how sure he was of me". Afterwards, she makes a point of the fact that he never consults her and subsequently, in the evening, he knocks before coming in ..."which is the first time I remember him doing so". What is the meaning here? Is it supposed to mean that he realised the that she is indeed grown up (she would be 24). Also, he proceeds to give her a big speech about he never asked for anything and how she is free do as she pleases, and also slightly puts her down by reminding her she used to be " a very ordinary girl in pigtails". Was he genuinely only interested in her career at that point or was he in denial about his feelings?
2) When Nicholas goes to see her at the painter's house: after being nice for a change and convincing her to go back to the therapist, he extends his hand to her and says that "there's nothing to be frightened of anymore" . What's the meaning of that? He was willing to let her go with the painter, despite his obvious attachment to her? Was he about to tell her he indeed loves her but got interrupted by the painter coming in? Also, did the painter understand that Nicholas loved her then? He looked quite touched and a bit sad/even tearful at that point.
3) When Larsen comes visiting and plays the Beethoven sonata. Did Nicholas think Larsen knew about his lashing out at Francesca at that point and was angry for that? Did he suspect Larsen knew his true feelings? Did he even know himself? He looked like he was really in pain when Larson guessed...
4)for the famous pre-hand-smashing speech... at some point Nicholas says "I can't live without you...you must know that". How would she, as up to that point he had consistently been cold and distant to her....
5) At the very end, when all three men are awaiting Francesca in the hallway...did the doctor know at that point whom she was about to choose?

Anyway, from an interview with James Mason I know that the initial script was written so Francesca goes off with the musician, so perhaps they were changing the script as they were filming the movie, but there are some puzzling statements that, given the final version, don't make much sense....at least to me. I think they really should have tried to soften Nicholas a bit more in his interactions with her (not just behind the scenes, such as in the Rachmaninov backstage scenes) as progressing through the movie, rather than just at the end. As is, why would the girl ever fall in love with him?
Still, I love this movie, so intense and romantic despite the lack of romantic scenes.

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Is it supposed to mean that he realised the that she is indeed grown up


That's how I've always read that scene. For once he actually heeded what she said, albeit passive-aggressively because he behaves like a martyr when he says he's only ever done all this for her sake (he's denying some of his own "stage mother" selfish motives here). It's manipulative of him to make her feel that she's the unreasonable one here but he's aware enough to see that he does need to change his approach with her.

Was he genuinely only interested in her career at that point or was he in denial about his feelings?

I see it as simply part of his transition in his feelings towards her. The film is deliberately ambiguous about when his feelings changed; all we can be sure of is that he was completely indifferent when she was 14, only interested in her musically 14-17, and the audience (but not Nicholas) is supposed to be clear about his feelings for F by the time of him wistfully watching the Rachmaninov concert (the night she goes off to find Peter and rebuffs N- that's the cross-over moment in their story arcs: he's shown to be vulnerable at last, and she's now finding her strength).

Denying her the chance to be with Peter could just be N not wanting her to throw away her career by getting married at 17 or it could be unrecognised jealousy; personally, I think it's musical ambition mixed with his default domineering nature at this point- but it's impossible to tell for sure because we know that the writers originally had her ending up with Peter. How much of the script did they revise once they made that change? It muddies the character motivations because we can't see him as an ogre anymore since we're supposed to root for their relationship and therefore go looking for early positive signs that would have been interpreted differently had she ended up with Peter.

he extends his hand to her and says that "there's nothing to be frightened of anymore" . What's the meaning of that? He was willing to let her go with the painter, despite his obvious attachment to her? Was he about to tell her he indeed loves her but got interrupted by the painter coming in? Also, did the painter understand that Nicholas loved her then?

I saw it as his acknowledged meaning is that she doesn't need to be frightened that her hands are too damaged to play the piano ever again. Also, since she's just admitted she finds him frightening at times, he's offering an olive branch and saying he'll change. The unacknowledged meaning is that his meeting with the psychiatrist has made him realise his suppressed love for her has had a damaging effect on her and that he's now willing to step aside and let her go with Max.
I think Max was unhappy because he'd hoped she would marry him that week and go and live with him in Italy but by reconciling with Nicholas she'd be returning to her world of music, making a relationship with him that much harder. I don't think he suspected the truth about Nicholas.

When Larsen comes visiting and plays the Beethoven sonata. Did Nicholas think Larsen knew about his lashing out at Francesca at that point and was angry for that? Did he suspect Larsen knew his true feelings? Did he even know himself? He looked like he was really in pain when Larson guessed...

I think at first he just feels angry at Larsen prying into his private affairs- psychiatrists were considered quacks back then and Nicholas is the ultimate old-fashioned Englishman still living in his Victorian styled home. And N is a clever man- he'd know they'd have discussed such a key event. But from N's point of view, all that Larsen actually sees is Nicholas being angry at the music which was played when he tried to hit her hands- that could easily mean he's just worried he'll be in trouble for physical assault as much as anything else, but by now the audience and Larsen are on the same page about his suppressed love. I think we're meant to believe that Nicholas didn't understand his true feelings until the moment Larsen says at the very end of the scene "Now I know what she means to you". That way this is a key turning point in his character development and juxtaposed with the next scene where he's at last nice to Francesca. The psychiatrist reveals both F&N's true nature to themselves.

for the famous pre-hand-smashing speech... at some point Nicholas says "I can't live without you...you must know that". How would she, as up to that point he had consistently been cold and distant to her....

Even for a melodrama this is a badly written scene- his words here are unequivocally romantic and yet at this point he's still supposed to be in denial. It would have made more sense for him to still think he's doing this for her benefit, not his. Never mind whether people would really say these words, the words don't obey the internal logic of the film. But the one outwardly interested gesture he has shown towards her is having her portrait painted. For a gothic melodrama that's usually a sign of romantic attachment I suppose.

At the very end, when all three men are awaiting Francesca in the hallway...did the doctor know at that point whom she was about to choose?

I sincerely hope so, otherwise that means they haven't talked through the very important consequences of a previously fragile woman going off with her erstwhile tormentor. Had Larsen not talked about her next step in life that would be a gross dereliction of a psychiatrist's duties, no matter how unrealistic the miracle he's managed to pull off in the short time span. But the fact that he left her playing the music which first revealed to Larsen Nicholas' true feelings is, I feel, the big hint that they've just been discussing him and that he therefore knew who she'd chosen.

But all in all, the motivations and behaviour of characters don't bear too much scrutiny in this film because of the major switch in how Francesca resolves her problems. The switch works cinematically because Mason is such a charismatic actor, but in terms of characters' motivations or good real life choices it's all wrong.

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Midgegirl,

I much enjoyed reading your analysis and comments. Just a few observations from where I sit. Having Francesca's portrait done may be a common trope to denote romantic attachment, but I don't think that is it's function here. Nicholas' comment that F. is "not unattractive" seems to me to be another instance of his denial of his true feelings for her. As I've mentioned in some other posts, there are several reasons why N. would be unable/unwilling to admit his growing passion - his general distrust of women, his status as her guardian beginning when she was a minor, the fact that she is living in his house. The latter being possible sources of scandal. In fact, I rather think that when their wedding plans are made public, tongues will be wagging. As for the lack of romantically explicit scenes between them, my personal take on this is that it was done deliberately to maintain the sexual tension that permeates the film. (aided by the fact that Mason and Todd were sleeping together during the filming). Also, this maintains the suspense of not knowing which suitor she will choose. Personally, I agree with Kael, who thought this was rather silly, and it would have been better dramatically if Francesca and Nicholas had gotten together rather earlier and more explicitly. As for the final scene, it appears that we are all disappointed in its brevity and preferred some get down passionate love-making. And why so dark and why are they so far away from the camera? What was Compton thinking?

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You probably know that Mason suggested the different ending. He told Muriel Box that the original ending was a bit dull, and I'm so glad that he did. I think if they had stayed with the original (Francesca choosing Peter Gaye), it would have been such a let down. It seems obvious to me that Nicholas has been falling in love with his ward for a long time, but tries to repress and hide his feelings. It will be rather a scandal when revealed, as he is her guardian, her second cousin, etc. Yes, I think Larsen would have known by the end of the therapy sessions which man she loved. I think that is also why he chose the Beethoven piece, the very same one she was playing when Nicholas tried to smash her hands. Remember when Larsen goes to see Nicholas, who becomes enraged and breaks the record, Larsen says to Nicholas, "I know what she is to you." Some viewers were unhappy with the ending, arguing that Nicholas was a control freak and Francesca should have gone off with one of her other suitors. I disagree. Firstly, there is no evidence that Peter ever was in love with her, indeed, he makes statements to that effect. As for Max, he is perfectly happy to see her sacrifice her music for, what may be to him, a brief affair. It is Nicholas who, in a true sense, sets her free to pursue music, her first love. Of course, he is very jealous and controlling, and no one would argue that their marriage will be a placid one. Finally, what woman would not choose James Mason, who was beyond handsome and sexy in his time? One more thing, I think that Francesca was also in denial about her real feelings for Nicholas.

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Movie girl: HI Manderstoke, I agree that Nicholas was the best choice for Francesca! Yes, Nicholas had been falling in love with his ward for a long time, but hid his feelings. I see why he got angry with Dr. Larsen when he played the same record, the Beethoven piece she had been playing when Nicholas attempted to smash her hands! He breaks the record which makes Dr. Larsen glad. Now he could understand what Francesca really meant to Nicholas.

Yes, Max would not have minded if she had gone off temporarily with Nicholas in a brief affair. Earlier he had stated that he did not want to get married. He was doing this for Francesca's sake. Now we do know that he was attracted to her physically, as he stated that she was the most beautiful creature he had ever seen.

His indifference to them getting married really angered Nicholas. Yes, Nicholas was a control freak and marriage to him would be rocky, but Francesca and he were secretly in love with each other! They had not known this important factor until recently. Was Peter really in love with Francesca? He seems friendly and slick; kind of casual. He did kiss her and agree to marriage, but it did not seem a passionate situation.

I do think that Nicholas and Francesca were in joint denial of their feelings!
One more thing is that I think Dr, Larsen knew which man Francesca would pick!

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Yep mcannady- given that the heroine's passion and career is music, it perhaps makes both aesthetic and -bizarrely- feminist sense that she should have a life partner who understands this and wants her to reach her fullest potential in it. Peter's interest in music is supposed to be middlebrow and he is portrayed as someone who prefers the easy life and thus unlikely to keep up with Francesca's ambitions and taste (her teenage love of "shopgirl music" notwithstanding) and Max doesn't even mention her music or her career when fantasising about their future together in Italy- only his own chance to continue painting.
Thus -ironically- the controlling Nicholas is the one character who wants to support her in her future career. That's as long as they both keep seeing a psychiatrist to talk through the myriad other issues in their bonkers coupling... ;-)

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Movie girl: Hi, you are quite right, that Nicholas seems best suited to Francesca's career interests. Peter did strike me as breezy and "middlebrow" as you said. Max was interested in his painting primarily. THey were both infatuated with Francesca, but Nicholas seems the best choice.

Do you think Nicholas actually injured Francesca's hands with his cane, or was it all psychological; the threat of him bringing the cane down and just missing her hands. He did feel guilty later and apologized.

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No no- as Max said to her in hospital, the injuries to her hands were from the car accident.

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Movie girl: That is right. Her hands were burned in the car accident. She had been traumatized earlier when Nicholas brought the cane down and nearly hit her hands. STill, he apologized for the intent and the fact that he had frightened her. (She had gotten up and ran to Max with fright).

Like my friend Manderstoke says, only James Mason could play that role so sensitively and beautifully. Also, Ann Todd. I did like Peter and Max, but the stars were the brightest.

Nicholas had been repressed and avoided women. IT took him quite awhile to see his real feelings for Francesca. I think she also felt the same. It does seem that Nicholas needed to lift a veil himself - he could not comprehend his real feelings.

A word about Herbert Lom. He was simply marvelous here as the sensitive psychologist who keeps trying and trying to help Francesca.

Great film!
Have a good day
Janet

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