MovieChat Forums > Laura Discussion > Was this ever colorized?

Was this ever colorized?


I'm sure some will shudder to even consider the possibility, but if you've ever seen Tierney in "Leave Her to Heaven"...


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Shudder

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Hi Mckee,

I've never come across any reference to this film being available in color.

As for the controversy concerning colorization, it's never been an issue for me.

When colorization was first started, I read they always used a pristine print to start the process, resulting in details not noticeable before.

In my opinion, this was a plus, because prior to the advent of home video (in its many incarnations), most of us saw muddy, old prints of the classics on TV. Often, they may have been copies of copies. Really bad quality.

I read, for example, that the "great wall" in "King Kong" was very detailed and covered with vines. Yet, in all its TV broadcasts (many years ago), the wall just looked like a black mass.

I came upon the colorized version on VHS years ago, and all the details are apparent. (As I'm sure they are today in a remastered black and white.)

People who rail against colorization puzzle me. It's like they want to impose their will on others. If you don't want to watch a colorized version, just don't watch it.

It's not as if they taking away and destroying the black and white original.
Who cares what the director's/producer's original intent was? That's a weak argument -- as long as the originals aren't destroyed.

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As a film maker, it would be like making a beautiful painting and finding it's being shown with somebody else's colouring in all over it.

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As a film maker, it would be like making a beautiful painting and finding it's being shown with somebody else's colouring in all over it.
But, that's not what it is at all. It's just an optional way of viewing a movie. The original is still intact. If you want to get all artsy fartsy film maker on me, I'm not impressed.

As stated above, I really don't think it's that big a deal.

And, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Some "beautiful paintings" belong in the dumpster.

To each, his own.

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Thanks, Gubbio, for your thoughtful and informative reply. Did not know "King Kong" was colorized...would love to see it!

While I can appreciate the "purist" point of view, I do enjoy having different viewing options, and bottom line...the original is still intact!

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I have a colorized copy of "Casablanca." It is beautiful! I also have a black and white version as well. I have also seen "The Maltese Falcon" in color. The color gives you an idea of how young the actors really were. The costumes in "Casablanca" are out of this world in color.

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The costumes in "Casablanca" are out of this world in color.
I repeat, I have no problem with colorization.

But on costumes, one wonders if they have any original production notes on which to base the color. Or, does the colorist use his own license?

I'm guessing the latter. Because, if black and white was shot properly, the colors chosen would be those that would photograph well in black and white -- and not what we might choose for color. A "red" dress in black and white might have actually been black, or what ever color photographed well. I believe that goes for the sets as well.

When colorization first came out, I recall Bette Davis (very old school) bitching about this very subject.

To wit, the Frankenstein Monster is most often depicted as having green skin. This is because the makeup was green -- which photographed the deathly white they were going for.

Some color shots of Karloff in makeup were published. So, most people assume "Frankie" was green. -- Not at all what the director and makeup artists were going for.

Here's a brief "home movie" of Karloff clowning -- in color:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPTPP9tBZ6A&feature=related


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Appreciate everyone's input and Gubbio especially for the behind the scenes technical history...and Karloff the Klown!

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[deleted]

Laura has never been colorized.

Sorry, I'm one of those who, in Gubbio's words, "rails against" colorization. Actually, I'm not at all sorry.

Now, the OP says Gene Tierney looked good in color in Leave Her to Heaven. True. But the huge difference is that that was real color. "Colorization", by its name and by definition, is NOT real color. It's fake, invented, and cannot possibly duplicate the nuances, subtleties and accuracy of actual color.

(I loved the comment by the poster who said they never realized what color the costumes were in Casablanca before seeing it colorized. Sorry to inform them, they still don't. And how seeing the actors in The Maltese Falcon colorized makes the poster realize how young they were? The actors actually weren't all that young there, but I never heard that colorization made you look younger.)

For all his acceptance of colorization, even Gubbio admits that colorization technicians simply make up the colors they slap on costumes -- and everything else -- in a b&w film. Very little you see in colorized movies reflects what colors things actually were...and even in the extremely rare occasions when they have some clue of the real colors, they still cannot duplicate them.

The colorization process requires that a b&w film be, in effect, "washed out", lightened in order to apply the fake colors. This in itself mars the basic film. Then a technician puts on artificial colors that almost never reflect what the actual colors were. And unlike real color, where the shadings and variations of natural colors show up, in colorization the colors are simply uniform and flat -- everything is just yellow or blue or green or whatever, with none of the differentiations seen in the real world.

Also, if you look in the backgrounds of colorized films you can see they often don't bother colorizing things in the distance (people, cars, etc.), or just smear on some colors (like blobs of green on tree leaves) without making any distinctions. Interiors of things like cars when seen in the background are never colorized. Objects that actually were or might have been black or white, such as telephones, are not colorized (a black phone is not painted black by a colorizer), and as such they look faded and unreal amid an otherwise colorized scene.

And if you want to see a colorized Gene Tierney, be prepared for the usual sight of pastel skin with dead pupils in her eyes -- unless it's a close-up, in which case all of a sudden ray beams of unnatural color bobble around the eyeballs. Oh, and gray teeth and a tongue with no color when she opens her lovely mouth.

Have any of you colorization fans considered that movies like Laura are called film noir for a reason? They're supposed to be in black and white. Any movie, color or b&w, is designed and shot to take advantage of its way of being filmed. A b&w film is not simply a color movie shot with b&w film. The whole point is to convey a mood or feeling that only b&w can convey. (Just as a movie filmed in color looks bad in b&w.) Colorization destroys the whole point of making a film in b&w -- and nowhere more so than in film noir. (This also goes for horror films like Frankenstein or Night of the Living Dead. B&W isn't simply a budget choice; the picture only really works as it was filmed.)

In short, colorization has consequences. It isn't merely putting fake, inaccurate colors on a movie. It's changing the movie. The film isn't the same any more. I love this cop-out caveat: "As long as we still have the original." Unhappily, you may not always have access to the original.

One last thing. If you like colorization and don't think it means anything, then why not change a film's music score? Why not remove scenes or add new ones? Why not digitally alter scenes? Why not change dialogue? Why not change colors in color movies? This isn't theory: all these things have been done to many films. If you justify changing a film in one way, you cannot in logic not justify other kinds of changes. And you can't say, well, colorization doesn't change the film, because obviously it does -- otherwise why do it? Where does this nonsense about "having a choice" stop?

Gubbio and others may scoff at "the artist's intent", but despite that opinion, this is indeed a legitimate factor. No one has the right to change another's work.

In any case, one basic question...why are so many people so uptight about black & white?

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Sorry, I'm one of those who, in Gubbio's words, "rails against" colorization.

Yes, you certainly do! 

(Do they pay you by the word, the way they paid Waldo?)

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(Do they pay you by the word, the way they paid Waldo?)


Yes. 

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[deleted]

Who cares if it's the wrong color, when they filmed a b&w movie was the world also in b&w?


Now that's a delusional post.

Your points are invalid, by your logic you claim coloring a film makes it different, yet b&w isn't/wasn't a realistic representation of the actual world or its characters. There is a reason films have advanced to color, because realistically, the world and its people aren't b&w.


If you think, as you do, that colorization doesn't do anything to a film except add phony colors, you're not only being delusional but are being logically absurd.

Of course colorization changes a film. It was in black & white. Now it's in fake color. That in itself is a change. By definition, it makes it different. Or can't you grasp this fact?

No, the real world is not in b&w. Nor is it in fake colors. Nor does it have music accompanying it. Nor is one's field of vision restricted to a certain aspect ratio within camera range. Nor are there close-ups or p.o.v. shots. Nor is it silent (so I guess that means silent films should have sound and dialogue added, as well as being colorized).

Film is an art form as well as a technology. Art does not always represent the world as it is. Picasso didn't paint "reality". Ansel Adams mainly used b&w photography to capture a form of beauty not visible to the naked eye. Black & white films were specifically designed to be shot in b&w. They were lit, photographed, the sets and costumes designed, not only to look best in b&w but to create a mood. Seeing a b&w movie in color -- particularly fake color -- is decidedly not the same as seeing it in b&w. It isn't just adding phony colors. It's destroying the mood and tone of the film, which are central to any film's quality -- both b&w and color films.

And by the way, films haven't "advanced" to color, since they've been making color films since the 1920s, even earlier.

Coloring a film doesn't replace the actors, so how would replacing the score or removing scenes be the same?


Replacing the score or removing scenes doesn't "replace the actors" either. But they change the film, as do the other tech aspects I mentioned, colorization included. Or do you really think the only way to actually alter a film is to replace the actors?

Coloring a film enriches a stale color palette.


Huh? You can't "enrich" something that isn't there. By definition, a black & white film is not in color; therefore it does not have a "color palette", stale or otherwise; and therefore there is no palette to be "enriched".

That aside, colorization can never duplicate the genuine richness of real color, with all its shades, nuances and gradations. So much for reality.

Obviously your only concern is what you consider to be a film's "realism", which to your superficial mindset means whether it's in black & white or color. Unfortunately there's a lot more to any film than whether it's shot in b&w, color, or tinted. Films are not reality; they're a representation of reality. You may have a childish need to see things in color, and an undiscriminating taste that accepts fake, inaccurate "colors' as the real thing, but smearing on phony computer-generated colors doesn't make a movie better any more than it makes it "real". Your point is not only "invalid", it's just plain ridiculous...and at variance with reality.

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Eloquently & accurately said!

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I wouldn't want to see this in a colorized version. In fact, if there was a hypothetical alternate version that had been shot in Technicolor at the same time they were shooting the original Black and White, I don't think I'd want to see that, either.

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It is a terrible idea to colorize this film. This film has wonderful black and white cinematography.

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Personally, I wish colorized versions of ALL movies were available, as horrible an idea as that might be to some film purists.

The reason I feel that way, is because I'd like to see more young people enjoying classic movies such as this one, but nowadays, kids are reluctant to watch any movie that was shot in black & white, which is very sad, indeed.

If colorizing a movie ensures that more people will see and enjoy a particular film, then I'm all in favor of it.

An analogy might be that no one complained at all (so far as I know), when music was added as a soundtrack to Fritz Lang's memorable 1927 classic, "METROPOLIS."

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You make a very good point, and with that in mind, I propose the following movie channel: Colorized Classic Movies, aka CCM.

"No, I don't like to cook, but I have a chicken in the icebox, and you're eating it."

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Ugh...I sure hope not!

I think that black and white films should be seen as black and white films. Why should they be colorized?

~~
💕 JimHutton (1934-79) and ElleryQueen 👍

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[deleted]

How is it pretentious and elitist? Besides, to be fair, if a movie was filmed in color, then I expect to see it in color. I wouldn't watch such a film in black and white. Just like if a movie is in a foreign language, then I don't want it dubbed over in English. The subtitles are good enough. And a silent film shouldn't have a voice-over, either.

Comparing the black & white/color issue to how music is played isn't a good comparison.

~~
💕 JimHutton (1934-79) and ElleryQueen 👍

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[deleted]

I should have elaborated more on the business of comparing colorizing b&w films to listening to music on cassettes/CDs rather than records. That comparison makes no sense. Shifting from records to CDs to digital music is like watching movies on DVDs and VHS rather than only in the theaters. It doesn't change the music/movie. The only change is how the music is heard and where the movies are seen.

Colorizing a b&w film (or seeing a color film in b&w) is like tampering with a song - making changes to something already recorded.

Nothing narrow-minded and irrational about seeing a b&w film in b&w. That's how it was filmed. Why would it be necessary to see it in color? If b&w bothered me so much, then I wouldn't watch b&w films at all.

~~
💕 JimHutton (1934-79) and ElleryQueen 👍

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[deleted]

The movie is visually stunning. As it was released in 1944, I expect it to look like 1944 and not like 2015. If I want to see a film from 2015, I would check out a film from 2015. If that's narrow-minded, so be it.

~~
💕 JimHutton (1934-79) and ElleryQueen 👍

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[deleted]

Consull, you persist in calling anyone who dislikes colorization as "narrow-minded". In point of fact, you're the one who's narrow-minded. You're as intolerant of anti-colorizers as you accuse them of being toward people like yourself.

You've said you have no problem watching b&w movies but I don't believe you, because everything you've said about them is disparaging. Your descriptions of them as "murky", "dull" and the like betray a closed mind and an unobservant eye. In fact, most b&w films are beautifully shot. Your comparison of the qualities of b&w films to the relative qualities of older technologies vs. new (VHS vs. Hi Def, CDs vs. records) is invalid. If some b&w films look poor visually that's because of the deterioration that has occurred with age, improper storage and so forth, or maybe they were just poorly made. (The same kinds of thing applies to many color films.) It's not because b&w is inherently inferior visually to color.

I'm stating that color helps to restore and refine the dull color of b&w.


First, and once and for all, black & white is not color -- dull or otherwise. You cannot "restore" a b&w movie by colorizing it.

Second, colorizing does anything but "refine" the look of a film. Of course, you personally are unable to see this, but in fact colorization is recognized as being ill-defined. The colors bleed onto other portions of the film. They lack the subtleties and shades of color you find in the the real world. Only principle objects and people are colorized; distant backgrounds usually aren't, or only to the extent of smearing broad-stroke colors without definition or gradations. It is anything but refined. The fake colors aside, the process actually makes the film mushier and less distinct, mainly due to the inherent imprecision of colorization but also due to the need to "rinse" a film in order to lighten it sufficiently to add superficial coloring. Colorization is notorious for not looking crisp -- just the opposite of your claim.

Third, since you're so preoccupied with your definition of "realism" -- i.e., being in color -- it's a bit bizarre that you dismiss the fact (which even you acknowledge) that the colors are not only fake but inaccurate.

Gone with the Wind and half of The Wizard of Oz is in color, both are considered superior visually than any other film of its [sic] time.


Actually, this is not correct. Many b&w films are considered beautifully shot and visually superior. This in no way denigrates the excellent visuals of those two films, but the fact that you don't know enough to realize that hundreds of b&w films are deemed equally beautiful if not more so than color films shows how little you understand of, or appreciate, film and film making.

Normally I repeat something I've said before, that if you think colorization looks good, compare a colorized movie with a contemporary film actually shot in color. The difference is huge. But such a comparison is obviously lost on you, since you simply decree colorization perfect, superior in all instances to the b&w originals, and the equal of real color films.

Of course, you'll dismiss this as just more ravings of a closed-minded film enthusiast, but I can turn that characterization much more accurately on you. The colorized version of King Kong looks like the garbage it is. You may need color because you think that makes something "realistic" -- as usual completely missing the point -- but many of us have one thing for films you don't: respect. Respect for the film, its means of telling its story and expressing its point, and the people who made it. You can dredge up all the convoluted counter-factual arguments and bizarre claims you can imagine in favor of colorization, but that doesn't make you, and more importantly, it, right.

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[deleted]

Arguing with a one-sided individual on the internet is futile.


Ha! Quite a comment coming from a person so convinced of his own infallibility and with no respect for dissenting views.

You clearly have no clue what you're articulating, as I have spent a copious amount of time colorizing different projects.


So, it comes out at last: you're a professional colorizer. (Apparently.) No wonder you're such a shill for the process, and so hyper-sensitive to disagreements over it and vindictive toward those making them. It seems we're criticizing the way you earn your living. Well, this may give you technical expertise but it doesn't convey aesthetic sense. It's obvious both that you're invested emotionally (and I assume financially) in colorization and, consequently, more than a little arrogant about pronouncing your opinions as unarguable fact.

Not only does it restore an image/video, it adds intensity and a sentimental relation.


You cannot "restore" something that was never there in the first place, so as usual you've chosen inappropriate or inaccurate words; in any case, this claim is highly debatable. "Adds intensity"? Maybe, but not of the right kind. "Sentimental relation"? Meaningless gobbledygook. Nonsense, just something to spout that sounds of great import but is in fact vacuous blather.

Today's colourizing techniques are far more accurate and progressive,


I actually agree with that, compared to the process of 25 years ago. Does that mean it's flawless and accurate? Nope. Colorization is of necessity inaccurate, arbitrary, unable to replicate colors in their true form, nature, intensity, variety and completeness. Of course, some of that may be due to lazy or incompetent colorizers.

it only makes sense to bring a contemporary perspective to a film.


So you say. Most others don't. But if phony color is a "contemporary perspective", then I ask again, why not bring in a "contemporary" music score, or add "contemporary" images in place of older ones, and so on. You've argued, ridiculously, that colorization does not change a film -- which of course it does, in ways you yourself have been trumpeting. So, if being what you deem "contemporary" makes colorization not only acceptable but beneficial, why not the other computer-generated changes we now have the technology to manufacture? It's hypocritical to say one change is brilliant while all others are bad.

I have an immense amount of respect for all film. From the silent era to current.


Debatable, given the fact that you claim colorizing them is an unalloyed good. That is an inherent lack of respect for b&w film at least, and the people who made them.

You're just not living in a realistic reality. I'm not the one refusing to accept that the colorization process IS indeed beneficial in refurbishing a black and white film.


A "realistic reality"? Another inventively dopey phrase. As opposed to an unrealistic reality? In any case, who's living in what is another matter of opinion.

As to your second remark, no, you're the one substituting his own opinion about the alleged benefits of colorization as received fact not open to dispute. What was that again about not being open-minded?

Thankfully, the fine arts are indeed a subjective topic,


At last! A side trip into "realistic reality"! An acknowledgment that your rapturous love of colorization is indeed only a personal opinion? Oh, no, as you were....

however, an up close involvement hold a tad bit more weight than an unfledged observation.


Ah, well. By the bye, what is an "unfledged observation"? Again, not an accurate or meaningful word in this context.

I could have ignored the topic, though seeing your unwillingness to listen to other ideals and acting like you were competent enough to justify hostility towards anyone who felt different, I obliged by offering a more hard-nosed opinion than I would have otherwise.


Gee, to think we reduced such an open-minded, understanding and complex individual to the status of one offering naught but hard-nosed opinion. But while you apparently didn't notice it, you've just admitted that all your assured pronouncements are, in fact, nothing more than your opinions. Small victories.

I never claimed b&w films are dreadful, I simply said, visually, they lack depth, refinement and an ardent emotional charge.


No, I said you disparaged them, not for their content but for their look. The rest of your statement is nothing other than yet more personal opinion, and frankly on the evidence a pretty stupid opinion.

Well, thank you for clearing up the reason for your ardent insistence on the superiority of colorization in all instances. You're a colorizer, and more broadly, one who cannot abide a film not in color, your protests to the contrary notwithstanding. Fair enough, but it does render you incapable of escaping the very kind of bias you so readily accuse others, opposed to your point of view, of being held captive by.

You have every right to like, defend and advocate colorization. Just knock off the air of unassailable self-righteousness you assume in every instance, stating as given fact that colorization is superior to b&w. You're great at accusing others of having closed minds -- a useful trait, I imagine, in enabling you to deny that very attribute in yourself.

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Thanks, hobnob. I think that I was courteous in the way I stated my reasons for preferring to watch b&w movies in black and white. If I'm going to be repeatedly called narrow-minded for my preferences, then I don't see the point of continuing the conversation.

~~
💕 JimHutton (1934-79) and ElleryQueen 👍

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[deleted]

Color distracts . . . and in no way would colorization (or whatever) make a masterpiece more of a great work . . .

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You have a chance to make a classic even more watchable and practical


"Watchable" is a matter of opinion, your god-like assumption of being the arbiter of such things notwithstanding. "Practical"? Like most of what you write, that makes absolutely no sense. How is it any more "practical" to watch a film in color (or colorized) than b&w? (Or for that matter, vice-versa?) A concept that has no meaning or relevance either way.

There is absolutely no reason as to why colorization is wrong.


Again, a matter of opinion, not an Olympian certitude handed down by you.

The claims hobnob put forth are fruitless.


"Fruitless"? Do you even know the meaning of that word? I suggest you purchase a thesaurus. Perhaps you mean something like "pointless" or "meritless" but "fruitless" makes no sense in this context...except, maybe, in that it's fruitless to carry on a civil discussion with a self-absorbed bully convinced of his own omniscience, who resorts to personal invective in order to mask the absence of facts in his arguments.

Bleeding of colors? Please! I highly doubt he has colorized a film a day in his life, much less studied the technique available to do so.


Have I, personally, "colorized a film a day in [my] life"? (Which is what you wrote.) No, I haven't. Have you? [Edit: Having belatedly read your previous post, I see you are indeed a colorizer. Your statement is rather bizarrely expressed -- "colorized a film a day in his life"? -- but as I wrote in my later reply to that earlier post, it explains your closed-mindedness regarding the supposed value of colorization. No, I do not colorize films. I don't need to to know a bad job when I see it. End edit.] Now, if you meant "Have I seen a colorized film", which is a more logical question, the answer is of course, yes -- many. Disagree with my observation all you want (you're wrong, incidentally), but when you have no idea what you're talking about (in this case, my familiarity with the process of colorization and colorized films), I suggest silence.

However, we concur on one thing. I won't speak for MrsElleryQueen, but for my part, to paraphrase your remark above, talking to you is equivalent of talking to a barrier. Enjoy wallowing in your own delusions of intellectual depth. Colorized, of course, so you won't notice the murkiness.

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[deleted]

The most amazing thing about colorization is that there are people who will actually argue that it's a good thing.

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B&W is unnatural.

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