Dull and unintelligent?
The second wife describes herself as both; however, she is not dull and I don't think there's anything in the movie indicating she's unintelligent. Do you think there's anything?
shareThe second wife describes herself as both; however, she is not dull and I don't think there's anything in the movie indicating she's unintelligent. Do you think there's anything?
shareThe second wife is not dull or unintelligent. It's just her lack of self esteem that makes her think so. She lacks confidence to begin with, a situation worsened as she constantly compares herself unfavourably throughout the story to the beautiful, accomplished Rebecca.
share^^Good answer.
"Did you make coffee...? Make it!"--Cheyenne.
its told from her point of view and of course she see herself as that, most people see themselves as less than what they actually are in many ways. rebecca is obviously an exception. besides, she grows up as the story goes on and emerges as a stronger individual, discovering qualities she never knew she had along the way. i doubt she started off as boring and unintelligent but if others treated her that way, she could be fully convinced she was
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OCOE - obsessive compulsive olive eater
Part of the character's backstory was that her mother died when she was quite young, and while she loved her father, he sounds a bit odd, and perhaps lacked much social standing and awareness. In other words she might not have learned or had instilled much self confidence. Add in that it does not sound like she was raised in a family with much money, and she almost certainly (considering the times as well) did not go to college. She may not have had any experiences of positive reinforcement to build up her self esteem and give her an objective measure of her intelligence.
And of course closely related to her low self esteem is her shyness.
As the story progresses, however, she changes considerably. One should imagine after the film ends that such a character would go forward not only with the insight she has obtained about her husband and about people in general, but also with a good deal better understanding of her own qualities.
I always thought it was so funny, in a macbre sort of way, that Maxim was so worried about how his wife would feel if she found out he killed Rebecca, then she does find out and plots how to continue the coverup. There was a lot more to the young lady than anyone realized.
http://thinkingoutloud-descartes.blogspot.com/
First of all it should be obvious the justa poster has some issues, or let's put it this way a rather odd way of understanding human beings. Let's respond instead to zanza's post.
I don't think it was macabre that Maxim was concerned how his second wife would react. It was not merely the fact of Rebecca's death that concerned him, although it is clear that did concern him. But there was also the way it made it look like he had bargained with Rebecca, and badly so, to protect the image of his family and of course his as well (although I think the film does a good job of making his concerns about the family name appear plausible).
Rebecca's death as a concern seems plausible enough, even if Maxim killed her accidentally. How would any later spouse feel to know their spouse killed one's predecessor as it were?
I think the element that made the second Mrs. de Winter's reaction quite believeable and plausible was she had become increasingly concerned about her husband's moods and unhappiness. She thought it was due to some lack on her part (even if such were limited to his perceptions of a lack). Now, in that room in the boathouse, she instead understands the real source of his unhappiness, that it was not her, but was about Rebecca. Couple that with understanding that he did not worship and adore Rebecca's memory, but in fact hated her, and adored his second wife, and the difference between what Maxim expected and what really happened makes complete sense.
One of the best parts of Joan Fontaine's performance in this film is that expression she gives when she hears Maxim say he hated Rebecca. She shows enlightenment, happiness, relief and some slight embarrassment over her reaction all at once. Great, great acting! And she does it in such a charming way.
You're kidding right?
She was nothing but dull and unintelligent. Also infantile, whiny, annoying, foolish (I'm sorry but who the *beep* thinks it's a good idea to dress up as their husband's great grandmother anyways? WTF was that?).
She runs off with a man she barely knows who only likes her because she's too young and immature to realise that he's a bit of a monster (it was obvious from the moment he tells her never to turn 32 that De Winter was a man who simply could not handle strong women and admired her because she was weaker and dimmer than he was...and then there was that weird Alice and Wonderland reference thrown in which somehow made him sound a tad paedophilic). She spends all day crying because the servants won't be her friend.
And it's just really hard to believe that someone's intelligent when all they do is talk about men all day (and about how best to be a devoted little wife like her devoted little dog). I mean, I get that they lived in different times but Jesus CHRIST!
The first wife sounds pretty clever by comparison (for one, she managed to convince her husband that somehow he would stand to lose more from a divorce than she did which struck me as hilarious).
She describes herself as that but it was because she had low self esteem. A bit childish and inexperienced ? Yes but unintelligent and dull she was not.
Esta es mi firma
She does obviously have some self esteem issues, and arguably they blind her to some warning signs she clearly does 'observe', but can't quite think what they might mean. Part of the power of the story, though, is in the power of Mrs de Winter's narration, when she insists so adamantly that her version of events, in which Maxim is this completely innocent person, is the right one. If she was too 'clever' or less 'dull' in thinking of alternative solutions, her emotional power as an 'avenging angel' type figure would be blunted.
In reality, the reader (and the viewer) sees enough to make some conclusions of their own. At the very beginning of the novel, we see Mrs de Winter is trapped in a particularly unhappy situation. She still loves Maxim, but we don't feel he is able to return her affection in the same way. He is a broken man, yes, but actually, you realize much of their marriage has not been happy. She is labrador-like in her loyalty, and this is not necessarily a bad thing - there are other qualities that unintelligent and dull people can possess to make up for it!
(I'm sorry but who the *beep* thinks it's a good idea to dress up as their husband's great grandmother anyways? WTF was that?).
She runs off with a man she barely knows who only likes her because she's too young and immature to realise that he's a bit of a monster
there was that weird Alice and Wonderland reference thrown in which somehow made him sound a tad paedophilic).
She spends all day crying because the servants won't be her friend.
It's just really hard to believe that someone's intelligent when all they do is talk about men all dayWho talks about men all day? What did I miss?
the first wife sounds pretty clever by comparison (for one, she managed to convince her husband that somehow he would stand to lose more from a divorce than she did which struck me as hilarious).Rebecca clever? Cunning and conniving, sure. But clever? No. Before she presented her "dirty bargain" to Maxim, you can be sure she talked it over with a barrister, who had perhaps outlined a number of scenarios, all of which would put her sitting pretty while leaving Maxim eviscerated.
[deleted]
I have posted on different aspects of the subject of this film before, but as other comments have made clear, there is much to say about the character of the second Mrs. deWinter and the related question of why she appeals to Maxim.
On another thread here I encountered a poster who basically found the character unattractive, I think more for her personality than appearance. We must acknowledge that a good part of one's appreciation or lack thereof of such a matter is subjective. For myself I must acknowledge that I find it difficult separating completely the related considerations of Joan Fontaine's performance, which I think is extraordinary, in fact one of my favorite performances by an actress in the history of film (up there with Kim Novak's in Vertigo and Bibi Andersson's in Persona). Another consideration is Joan's appearance, which again I find to be immensely appealing. In fact I admit to feeling Joan Fontaine was one of the most beautiful actresses in film history. So in short those no doubt color my opinions about the questions raised here which I have identified in the first paragraph.
But I think I can still separate those considerations out somewhat, and come up with somehting of an answer. (After all, I understand the character is not Joan Fontaine herself!)
On the question of why she appeals to Maxim, one starts with her certainly being appealing in appearance, but also any man will find a woman who is attractive to be worthy of consideration when they indicate they find the man appealing, even more so when they give an indication they are falling in love with the man. We all love to be loved, at least by someone we find generally suitable.
Given the foregoing, the next element is that in assessing her relative qualities, what is obvious about the situation is that Maxim viewed her as virtually the opposite of Rebecca. After his experience with Rebecca, one need not view him as on the rebound, seeking a very different woman, as that he was young and naive when he first met Rebecca, and now sees that Rebecca's "qualities" are not the sort he wants any part of. The reference Maxim makes to how everyone loved Rebecca, and how she had the qualities everyone (else) felt made for the perfect wife in fact proved to him that he would not defer to that sort of general view, but had his own, due to his experience, of what he wanted.
The wonderful scene where Mrs. Van Hopper has just discovered her companion's engagement to Maxim on the surface seems to show her aggressively antagonistic side, in her treatment of "I". But to be fair what she says reflects the view generally held by Maxim's contemporaries and peers, which includes a heavy dosage of class awareness and prejudices. (After all, the second Mrs. deWinter in fact was clueless about the running of a great house and estate.) But to Maxim, all that is far outweighed by the consideration that "I" is virtually the opposite of Rebecca, and that adds very much to her attractiveness to him.
But the more I think about it, the foregoing is not all. I think there is something about her youthfulness, beyond the mere fact of it, that also adds to her appeal to him. I think subconsciously he feels by marrying someone so young, someone who has not married before, it will be as if he also can through her put his own past marriage aside as it were. It can help bury his own past, and be as if his first marriage is no longer a presence in his life. This he soon finds himself to have been sadly mistaken about, and is the source of much unhappiness between them soon enough.
Of course there is also the specific concern he articulates later that something will come up from his past that will risk his second marriage as well, such as knowledge that he killed Rebecca, even if his second wife accepts that it was accidental. Here his second wife's youth and naivete, but also her exceptional loyalty to him (compounded as a practical matter by his saving her from having to continue with Mrs. Van Hopper) make her in his eyes more likely to remain loyal to him. As she does.
Part of what makes this film so great is that the reason why "I" remains with him and in fact helps him is that she has grown out of her youthful naivete. It is her understanding of his torment and inner demons that leads her to become stronger to save him and her marriage.
Returning to the issue of her personality standing on its own as it were, it again starts with simple and obvious considerations. She is initially attracted to him because she begins by noting that he is already in some debt to her, as she in effect led him to step back from the ledge. He then as a handsome man, and well off, shows interest in her, entertains her, takes her away from the awful Mrs. van Hopper - none of this is all that complicated, and certainly not the least bit implausible. I think it also obvious her shyness and low self esteem accentuate the effect here. She goes so far as to doubt her own appeal as to wonder whether the invitation to Manderlay is to be a secretary.
But we also see enough of her even early on to note her intelligence, thoughtfulness and let's be honest from Maxim's point of view POTENTIAL going forward to become more.
I think that covers it, but if anyone has questions or comments, please present them.
WTF? Why have you replied to me without hitting the reply button? How on earth was I supposed to see this?
Rebecca, that'a who.
What reason would any reader of the book or viewer of the movie have to believe Maxim was a monster?
A man wouldn't mind seeing a grown woman wear a headband, and we're automatically putting him in the sex offender registry? Really?
Who talks about men all day? What did I miss?
Cunning and conniving, sure. But clever? No.
She is young, insecure, and thrown into a situation she finds extremely stressful. She is neither dull nor unintelligent.
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