Yeah, Winchester (U.S. Repeating Arms Co.) offers the model 1892 today, but it is far removed from the original, which was produced only until around 1936 or so. The new 92s are made in Japan for USRA to be sold by Winchester. They go for around $700 and up. I don't like 'em -- too modern. They have a straight stock butt-end, a huge canopied front sight, and, of course, the new style tang safety switch. They're probably nice lever-action rifles for hunting, but they ain't western rifles no more! (Actually, we're talking about carbines here, not rifles. Saddlering carbines, at that.)
The model 94 was, indeed, developed for the more powerful new smokeless powder. Not necessarily larger calibers, but definitely much more powerful for longer range accuracy and take-down punch. Even the "newer" model 94s fall short of the glory of the pre-64s -- the steel today isn't as good as when they smelt it from iron ore and made them. The pre-1964 model 94s were all top eject, had much nicer wood, and had smoother action. The new one, like the new 92s, have straight-cut butt-ends. Until recently, they also featured a push-button safety bar across the hammer cavity -- now they have the top tang safety switch, and they're all side-eject now so you can mount a scope.
The levers are not interchangeable between models 94 and 92, because they both operate differently. When you cock a 94, the lever opens the entire lower receiver -- it's a much longer throw than the old 92s. The 92 lever, when cocked fully open, doesn't open the bottom of the receiver at all -- instead, the two chamber lock bars slide downward, a shorter throw than the 94 mechanism.
Besides, there is a secondary safety mechanism on the 94, which is a small button on the lower tang, which, when the lever is held fully closed, depresses this button to allow the trigger to release the hammer. Therefore, on a 94 lever, you'll notice the sharp edge up behind the trigger -- whereas, on the 92, there is no secondary mechanism, and the trigger guard is rounded as it forms into the top of the lever handle. (The "safety" on earlier Winchesters is to pull the hammer back to about a quarter-cock -- this way, the trigger can't function, and the hammer can't strick the cartridge primer. The only way to disengage this "safety" then is to pull the hammer all the way back, holding it firm with your thumb, and then pull the trigger to release it as you carefully lower it back to fully closed. Or, just pull the hammer all the way back, aim, and fire that chambered round!)
So, no, you can't buy a Winchester John Wayne commemorative large oval loop lever for a model 92. Or even for a new 92. As a matter of fact, it makes a difference whether you have an old pre-64 model 94, or a new post-64 model -- there are two different John Wayne loop levers, one for each model type.
Anyway, I'd heard that the whole large loop idea began when John Wayne's large hand found the standard Winchester lever small and troublesome... No doubt the movie gun folks and he looked into what they could do about it, and, in doing so, obviously took the idea a little further... I'm glad they did! There are few things as totally "American" as the large loop Winchester!
Old Winchester Model 1892 saddlering carbines (SRC) are very expensive in fair condition. Average of around $1,200 and up. Rifles cost about the same, often even more. There are inexpensive reproductions available from EMF, Hartford, IAR (Rossi), etc., which, in pistol calibers, have become very popular with Cowboy Action Shooters competition members across the country. I have a Rossi large loop 92 in .45 long Colt -- had a gunsmith do an "action" job on it, and now it cycles as smooth as any lever-action I'd ever tried. Yep, I can "flip" cock it, rapid fire from the hip and all... Gettin' pretty good with it, but I'm no Lucas Mccain, of course.
I don't know if Moe Hunt (Northfork Productions) has any legal trouble by including the threaded trigger trip screw on his Rifleman reproductions, even though they are and should be considered actual firing weapons. They are, in fact, Winchester model 1892 saddlering carbines in .44-40 caliber, all cleaned up and then modified with that unique "Lucas McCain" large loop lever. Check out Moe's website at http://www.northforkproductions.net/flip.htm to get a look at his offer. Personally, I like the slightly smaller, rounder loop variation Lucas McCain usually carried with him. (The larger, squarer loop was the one featured in the opening sequence, when Hollywood dubbed it in to make him fire like twelve rounds! The 92 in .44-40 holds ten rounds in the magazine, and you could chamber an eleventh.)
For a closer look at that larger, squarish loop, check out this webpage http://www.members.tripod/~northfork1/gunring.jpg For a look at some model 94s with the John Wayne commemorative large oval loop, check out http://www.4oldguns.com/win002.htm (if that page is still up.) To check out some old 92s and 94s available for sale, go to http://www.merzantique.com These are the real deal -- there, also, you can look at older models like the 1866, featured in many westerns, or the model 1873, made popular in westerns and Jimmy Stewart's film of that title, or the original Henry rifle without the wood forearm... Reproductions of all of these rifles are available today, since not many can afford the real things. I'm still saving for a decent old Winchester Model 92 SRC, myself. I'll have to settle for repros if I ever want a 66 or a 73 or a Henry. Unless I win the lottery. Or rob a stagecoach.
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lonewadhi
21 years ago
A lot of good info in your posting.
Check out the winchester site under non-catalogue firearms for a picture of the 92, the sights don't appear as you say and the stock isn't the same as my 94. Actually, besides that it looks quite the same.
My 94, in .45 long colt, ejects from the top and has no hooded front sight, although it does have the safeties you mention. I had a loop put on mine and it twirls like a champ. I find it sort of meditative.
Wayne did use Winchesters without the loop in some westerns, so the hand size theory probably isn't the reason for the loop. Large as Wayne's hands might have been, I doubt if his were so large that he needed to have a specially constructed lever. I also don't think that his were the largest hands ever to use a Winchester. Winchester says they began making the larger loop only recently.
For whatever reason, though, it does seem that Wayne and Cunutt were the inventers.
Happy twirling
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Beatniker
21 years ago
Hey there, lonewadhi, my favorite new Winchester large loop buddy!
You have a top-eject on your post-64 model 94? Hmmm... Well, no doubt there are variations available -- I'm just not looking closely enough at the newer models these days. My 94 is an old one, traced down the serial number, and found it was made in 1912. I've got the John Wayne loop on mine. Is that what you have on yours?
Mine's .30-30 cal., and has the case-hardened receiver, which I've recently carefully cleaned up with a soft wire brush on my bench grinder. The large loop lever is blued, but I'm thinking of buying another one and having my buddy nickel-plate it for me. I like the silver-color better than the blued. I've got another old 94 in .38, but that old piece of iron needs a lot of work. My brother bought it back in the 60s - it's got a large loop lever, which very obviously was someone's attempt to copy The Rifleman.
Looks like someone sawed off the original lever, fabricated a loop from cold stock, welded it on, then ground it down. One of these days I'll have my gunsmith see if he can fix 'er back up into shootable condition, put a John Wayne loop or some other one on it, but it'll have to be when I have some extra money that I don't know what else to do with...
Met someone at a gun show a while back, and he told me there was some small manufaturer some years back offering BIG large loop levers for both 92s and 94s old and new -- to date, I haven't found any trace of anything on 'em, nor anyone who can verify such a manufacturer or product. Frustrating.
Found lots of curious and odd sites when I typed in keyword "Large Loop Lever" in the search engine...
The only new 92s I've seen were at a local store -- both ranger models with the shorter 16" barrels, and they had the hooded front sights. But, again, there are probably a few variations available. I haven't seen any of the newer pistol caliber 94s yet. Maybe USRA's taking stock of their customers again, and seeing what they want! They ought to! Marlin is raking in money from lots of CAS shooters these days, no reason why Winchester shouldn't offer some nice western rifles again!
I looked at a few of the "new" Henry rifles -- their Yellow Boy models look pretty nice, but I don't much want one. Of course I did look twice at their neat little .22 with their version of a large loop lever...
So, how many times have ya caught the front sight hard into your shoulder when ya first began learning to flip your large loop 94...? Ha! I still have a few old sweatshirts with tell-tale little rips right where that danged sight caught me! The throw is just too long on the 94! A 92 is a little easier to flip. Like anything, it takes practice, I guess.
One distinguishing feature I've noticed between the old 94s and the newer ones is the length of fore-end wood in front of the forearm barrel ring. The older ones have a longer length of wood there. And that is also where most of these reproductions fall short -- every one of them that I've seen, including my little Rossi, has a "swelled" fore-end, where the wood is as wide as that ring, but it's recessed where it meets it.
Yeah, that story about John Wayne's big hand is likely just one of those rumors ya hear at gun shows and such. Your thoughts about Wayne and Cunutt are probably more accurate -- it's been my experience that, anything with a good design, especially one that becomes popularly accepted, generally had some thought and intention behind it. Ha! -- I wonder how many times John Wayne and Chuck Conners caught a good "Ouch!" while first learning to flip their rifles!
Well, catch ya later, lonewadhi !
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lonewadhi
21 years ago
I do believe that Winchester makes the 94 in stainless steel, if you like the silver look. I think I saw one at a gun show.
There is a version of the 94 with side ejection. Check out the Winchester site. They only show current offerings and not a historical listing. I think there are books on that subject, so you might look in a library or a bookstore.
My loop is not the round one on The Rifleman, but is not the one on the Wayne version. There is a picture of his 92 in a book called John Wayne . . . There Rode a Legend, published by Western Classics, ISBN 0-9670534-0-4, copyright 2000. The trigger guard doesn't continue all the way to the stock, but uses a curve into the egg shape of the loop. In mine, which is the one I've seen at gun shows, has a complete half circle triggerguard with an egg shaped loop.
The pistol caliber 94s are a more recent production. Its my thought that the 94 was for the more powerful rounds in smokeless powders that has been adapted for various pistol rounds. I too had a 30-30 version, years ago. I think that was the basic version of the 94, but I think there was another in .32. Currently it comes in various caliber's.
What interests me the thinking behind Wayne and Cunutt's version. If it has no previous incarnation, how is it they came to think of it? It is a great piece of theater.
I haven't ripped anything yet. I started by just letting it fall and cocking itself from its own weight, then bringing it back to the closed position. Once I got the feel of that, I tried twirling it. So far, no problems. It does give you some respect for Wayne's famous scene in True Grit when he not only twirls the rifle, but is cocking his .45. I know he isn't really on horseback, but it is the firearm equivalent of patting your head and rubbing your stomach.
By the way, that is Wayne making the jump at the end of the movie. Nice to see a "fat old man" still had it. Wayne said his code wasn't the one in The Shootist, but a Spanish one . . . he was big, he was ugly, he has nobility.
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Beatniker
21 years ago
Howdy, lonewadhi! Yeah, I've seen the stailnless Winchesters -- absolutely beautiful. Stainless barrel and magazine is just a bit too much sheen for me, though -- too bad ya can't get stainless receiver, loop, buttplate, and rings, with blued barrel and magazine. EMF andother repros also offer stainless models.
From your description, it sounds like your large loop is, indeed, Winchester's model 94 version of the John Wayne loop -- it needs that full half circle trigger guard to depress the trigger stop button on the lower tang. On John Wayne's 92, without such a button, his trigger guard rounds into the egg-shaped loop. If Winchester made them for the model 92, that's how they'd look. Who know...? Now that Winchester is having the model 92 made again, maybe they'll offer the John Wayne loop for the 92, if enough requests filter in... I also wish Winchester would offer the John Wayne loop for the model 94 in stainless. I'm sure it'd cost a little more than the $39.00 they charge for the blued one, but I'd buy one!
Yeah, I'm with you on wondering just exactly how they came up with such an original idea as this large loop! Pure and simple genius. Entertaining as well as intriguing. An American icon in and of itself! This country might not have the ancient roots of the old world, but we have the Kentucky flintlock, the Bowie knife, and our beloved Winchester with the large loop. Three of my favorite American icons. (I've never tried black powder shooting, though.)
Not only do Wayne and Cunutt get the credit for the original round-style large loop in Stagecoach, but they did again with the oval, or egg-shaped large loop Wayne used in all his films since True Grit.
Winchester presented a decorated John Wayne commemorative Model 94 (with the John Wayne lever) to president Ronald Reagan -- saw a picture of the Gipper holding it on the internet. It's the same loop you and I have on our 94s. I'm thinking of looking at the new 94s, maybe get one in .45LC, and, of course, a John Wayne large loop lever to put on it.
I like shooting my Rossi 92 .45LC. I buy Cowboy Action loads, which are much less powerful than full pistol loads. The Cowboy loads, as used in SASS competitions, are lead bullets only, round shoulder, flat point. Not much kick at all in the recoil. Now I want to look into reloading to save money.
Ha! - God bless ya, lonewadhi! - Sounds like you took the right approach to learning to twirl your large loop Winchester! Wayne and Connors always made it look so easy. When I first tried twirling mine, OUCH! And OUCH! again! Finally I resorted to more of an intelligent approach like yours... Wait 'til ya get a chance to twirl a model 92 carbine -- you'll really like the feel compared to the 94.
Well, amigo, seems like we've run this topic through its course! Great feedback, lots of fun! Adios!
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