Significance of Hatfield's death? - Stagecoach (1939) Discussion

[–] MsMarilyn 18 years ago

I just watched this film in a Film class so I can answer your first question. Yes, Hatfields death was a political message made by John Ford. You are not reading too far into it. Good job thinking of that!

But, he wasn't really the only one loyal to the confederacy, sort of. If you remember Hatfield said to Mrs. Mallory that he fought under her father's regiments. She is from VA. So she is Southern too. That is partly why she was written to be prejudiced against Dallas.

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[–] chrisludlam 18 years ago

In reply to your second query,while Yakima is singing she calls quietly to the vaqueros for them to depart,so yes you are right.And as she is singing a song about her lost native(Apache)homeland and connected memories,they doubtless realise it's time for them to leave promptly.Yakima also has left by morning,aware of the impending danger.

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] MsMarilyn 18 years ago

He is saying that the people had to come together and unite to succeed eventhough they did part ways in the end. Hatfield was different and a remembrance from the south. After the civil war, there was a feeling that the south must die. Having southern heritage myself, this is not something i like but it is what Ford wanted to subtly depict in this film.

"I don't mind living in a man's world as long as I can be a woman in it." ~Marilyn Monroe

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] MsMarilyn 18 years ago

You are definetly right about the film being about not judging people. I agree. Infact,the moral axis that I made was based just on that.

I dont like Mr. Hatfield either but I do think that he was saving her from the fate of the indians because they could do things to her worse than death. I see why you're saying that he was killing her because he couldn't have her. Your opinion is very much valid.

"I don't mind living in a man's world as long as I can be a woman in it." ~Marilyn Monroe

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[–] meanstotheend 18 years ago

You could interpret it in a Tennessee Williams vein, and imagine his death to be symbolic of the end of the southern gentry.

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[–] Soujurn 18 years ago

Hatfield was old school. A gentleman. He would kill Mrs Mallory to spare her being raped by the Apache. There was no way he would ever consider having Mrs Mallory for his own, because he was well aware of the social gap between them.

"Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government."
-Dennis

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[–] Scott-101 18 years ago

It disturbs me when people interpret filmmakers from such heavy political angles. I perfer to think of them as artists rather than as political radicals with cameras.

I also watched the film in a film class and I recall us saying that Hattfield found redemption in being able to die an honorable and gentlemanly death. Whether Hattfield was being judged as morally wrong or morally right, I think we can all agree that his character is one who clings to an old way of life that's soon becoming outdated. Westerns are often about transition between the primitive way of life and civilization, and I think it made the most sense that Hattfield was unwilling to cross over into the new civilization that was being carved out of the West, so he had the best ending his character could have. Therefore, a statement was just being made as to how that character would fit into that story, in my opinion, and it's too much of a stretch to equate Hattfield to some political faction in the 1930's and the West to 1939 America. Besides, if the issue was the outdated views of Southerners, the Civil Rights movement was really not much of an issue in the 1930's anyway.

I think his wanting to shoot the woman was meant to provide us with more insight about his character. I think it was also meant as a bump in the road for his struggle to find his fitting ending. Many other characters in the story also hit similar bumps in the road in their arcs.

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[–] rjg92 18 years ago

Scott, you may not want to see them as radicals with cameras, but many of them are.

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[–] vinidici 16 years ago

Can you say, "Oliver Stone and Michael Moore?"

Secret Message, HERE!-->CONGRATULATIONS!!! You've discovered the Secret Message!

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[–] theFoss 16 years ago

For my part, I intepret Hatfield's death as symbolic of the death of the sort of outmoded chivalric society and values that he professes. His motives and ideals were rooted in a way of life that was beginning to pass away, both with the Confederate defeat in the Civil War, and with the emergence of a working class aided by the industrial revolution. The role of southern gentleman certainly was out of place in the western frontier regions...

The depictions of the classes in Stagecoach are much more favorable to the lower class characters. The three "Upper" class characters, Gatewood, Hatfield, and Mrs. Mallory. all exhibit flaws of bigotry, pride, or selfishness. The three "lower" class characters, while seemingly flawed, prostitute, felon, and drunk, all demonstrate honorable qualities, of courage, selflessness, honor, and compassion, and in the course of events show themselves to be morally superior. The three neutral characters, Curley, Buck, and Peacock, are like a greek chorus, arguing for tolerance and acceptance.

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[–] vinidici 16 years ago

Good Post. However, Hatfield demonstrates some admirable traits, such as his protectiveness of Mrs Mallory and his code of honor.

And Mrs Mallory, still a young woman, will never forget the kindness that a "fallen woman" had shown her and will, doubtless, be given much to think about, as she recovers from her child bearing and perhaps for the rest of her life; doubtless a church-goer, the Gospel accounts of Jesus being "a friend of harlots and sinners" will affect Mrs Mallory in a far more meaningful way than it had in her whole life prior to the adventures with her fellow stagecoach passengers.

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[–] JuanMacready 16 years ago

John Carradine gave the best performance in the film. He should have won an Oscar as well as Thomas Mitchell. I suppose Mitchell just had the "showier" part.

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[–] 16 years ago

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[–] vinidici 16 years ago

Carradine was terrific in "The Grapes of Wrath," too.

Thanks for not savaging my last post, Juan. I know you COULD have, but didn't.

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[–] 16 years ago

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[–] titusmoody 16 years ago

Come on now juany, 'fess up -- you never really watched STAGECOACH. After all, isn't it an old, dated, racist Western in b&w starring a draft-dodger who was WAY TOO OLD for the role? That makes for multiple reasons for you to never go near such an offensive movie that should be BANNED.

"Howdy, Bub"

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[–] vinidici 16 years ago

Juan probably sees some intrinsic merit in even a lot of films & actors he trashes, titus.

Secret Message, HERE!-->CONGRATULATIONS!!! You've discovered the Secret Message!

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[–] mam13143 10 years ago

Carradine was a terribly underrated actor. In his early years he had some really good roles and only became stereotyped later in his career. And that voice can never be duplicated. In this film it fit the southern gentleman to a tee.

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[–] dstern1 14 years ago

The depictions of the classes in Stagecoach are much more favorable to the lower class characters. The three "Upper" class characters, Gatewood, Hatfield, and Mrs. Mallory. all exhibit flaws of bigotry, pride, or selfishness. The three "lower" class characters, while seemingly flawed, prostitute, felon, and drunk, all demonstrate honorable qualities, of courage, selflessness, honor, and compassion, and in the course of events show themselves to be morally superior.

With the exception of Gatewood, each of the "flawed" characters show a level of redemption. Hatfield shows compassion to not just Mrs. Mallory but also to the remains of a murdered woman prior to fording the river; finally, he dies heroically in battle with the Apaches. Mrs. Mallory expressed appreciation for the help from Dallas. The doctor pulls himself together when his skills were required; he also showed courage in Lordsburg when he stood-up to Plummer. Ringo, the outlaw, shows himself to be honorable and courageous. Dallas, a prostitute, has great compassion even to those who have shunned her.

Gatewood, as a banker, is outwardly the most socially respectable. In reality, he is consumed by greed and bigotry; the most contemptible, more so than even the Apaches who are betrayed as savages.

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[–] extreme_ash 16 years ago

John Carradine was wonderful in this role. With how movies are today, we do start to wonder if there is something more sinister going on when Hatfield targets Lucy. But, you guys are right - he was just an honorable man...

....who shouldn't have died!

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[–] mspatera 14 years ago

He had to die. In westerns before 1950 or so, the redeemed sinner (he seemed to have been a con man) always dies heroically; the unrepentant sinner goes to jail, like the banker. And yes, he was definitely about to save her from a fate worse than death by shooting her, but her prayer was answered and the cavalry arrived. Basic movie cliches, masterfully done. Love this movie.

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[–] infinity8 13 years ago

Hatfield also died to make way for the reunion of Mrs. Mallory and her husband. There can be no truly happy ending for Hatfield since he is in love with Mrs. Mallory, and he cannot have her (both because Mrs. M. is a married woman and because Hatfield, as a professional gambler, is not a fit husband for a "lady"). Given this fact, the best ending that Hatfield can have is to die protecting the woman he loves.

All of the characters who demonstrate nobility are well-served by the film's resolution. Dallas and the Kid certainly get their happiest possible endings.

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[–] lwi101 13 years ago

Being old had few compensations, but one is understanding old cliches. Sorry for resurrecting an old thread, but the "fate worse than death"oth sides during the Indian war is a stock sentiment in many movies, with a firm basis in fact. Both sides were brutal to captives. There were cases of captured white women being gang raped, the fate worse than death, and male captives being tortured. The idea of saving the last bullet for yourself was also prevalent. Any theories other than that Hatfield wanted to save Mrs. Mallory from a fate worse that death is to misunderstand the times. As is not unusual, both sides engaged in rape and torture, but stories of Cavalry troopers raping squaws were not printed and were never seen in movies, although there may be 1 or 2 from the 70's. There are many movies glorifying the south, including Gone with the Wind. John Ford often, includes honorable ex Confederates in movies, the Gen Clay scene in She Wore a Yellow Ribbon,among the most touching. IMHO Hollywood did a lot to foster the great lost cause view, while completely ignoring the slavery issues. I suppose that it is slightly more reasonable that a former Confederate Soldier would roam the west, (the Searchers) than a union soldier, who was likely city born, and could return to an un-burnt home. In fact there are a LOT of confederates who are the heroes of westerns. Johnny Yuma, not the least among them.
certainly you are entitled to any theories you like, but movie goers in 1939 would believe that white settlers were terrified of being captured by Indians on the war path, and that former Confederate soldiers had an abundance of honor and chivalry.
Lou

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[–] bari2525 13 years ago

I mean no disrespect, but your premise that a Union soldier would be likely "city born" is really quite a stretch, as most soldiers on BOTH sides were from mainly rural, or at the very least agrarian areas of the US, as "cities," as we know them now (even eastern ones) weren't quite what they would become, even a scant 35 years after the war.

Also, don't forget that the vast majority of eastern Tennessee (and until the very moment of secession, the middle section as well), was VERY pro-Union, and you had border states that struggled with a delicate balancing act of sense of honor/chivalry vs political/economic pressure that made the choice of uniform quite difficult.

I don't act...I react. John Wayne

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[–] lwi101 12 years ago

No disrespect taken, the U.S. didn't become a mainly urban society until the 1920's, so I am a bit off. The North was far more industrialized than the south, and I guess that I meant that even northern farmers would have closer contact with industry and cities than southern farmers. The north was not "invaded", nor did southern armies cause widespread destruction across the north. I think it was far more likely that union soldiers could return home to an "undisturbed" life than southern soldiers. So if you can return home to an intact family and home you are less likely to "roam the west", than if your generations old family farm had been burnt by Sherman. At least that's what I was thinking. If Ethan Edwards had returned to his farm and family in Vermont, John Ford wouldn't have had much to work with, dramatic tension wise. The drift of the thought was that Northern soldiers returning homes had fewer "romantic" story lines available to Hollywood,compared to Southern soldiers, or something like that!
Cheers!
L

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[–] GeorgiaDixie 10 years ago

Completely agree with you lwi101, on both Hatfield and on the Confederate view. The situation with many former Confederates was as you described (although this doesn't mean former Northern soldiers didn't the same thing, just that it was much less likely). Also I believe since most Confederates were fighting to protect their homes/homeland, and not slavery, is the reason it is rarely mentioned in classic Westerns. Finally, former Confederate soldiers who had suffered through so much but were still mostly honorable and heroic made much better (and more often "tragic) movie characters than similar Union vets who may have personally suffered but still had their homes and "country" to go back to afterwards. This is in vast contrast to more modern movies, who normally depict Southern vets as deranged, racist monsters. I'm not debating historical accuracy, just how it appears on-screen. Today Hatfield would have been depicted as a racist former slave-owner who wanted to possess another man's wife. Back to the main issues, however, Hatfield definitely thought he was basically "taking the bullet" himself (and probably was) by shooting Mrs. Mallory at what seemed to be the last seconds of the fight.

Courage is being scared to death- and saddling up anyway

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[–] edalweber 9 years ago

Hatfield was not in love with Mrs. Mallory. He was merely being gallant and protective to an unescorted lady, a practice still in vogue at the time of the "Titanic". His death was intended as showing that he had redeemed himself after disgracing himself by becoming a professional gambler, something that was a scandal to an upper class family.

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[–] 9 years ago

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