Somebody tell me if this is a film-noir or not - Little Caesar (1931) Discussion

[–] 19 years ago

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[–] pixnstix11 18 years ago

there is a bit more that goes into the definition. most film noir finds a protagonist trapped in a world of which he thinks he has control, but is just a pawn. a huge part of noir is cinematography; low key lighting and distinct camera angles. also, many times a "femme fatale" is present.

other noir films outside of the time period stated can be Sunrise (silent era), LA Confinential, Seven, Memento and the recent indie film Brick.

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] PUCCINI007 18 years ago

and Chinatown, carlito's way, the black dahlia. among others...

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] godard17 18 years ago

The Gangster Film genre (*Little Caesar* and *Public Enemy* establish the genre) is a predecessor of the Film Noir Genre. Film Noir starts with *The Maltese Falcon* (1941), John Houston. I have seen one scholar claim that it ends with *Touch of Evil* (1958), Orson Welles. Personally, I believe it's a stretch.

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[–] aes87 18 years ago

Didn't the film-noirs begin with fritz lang's M? Atleast so i have heard...

"Cabbages. Knickers. It's not got a beak!"

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[–] stokers_law 18 years ago

Yeah, I'd say that M is film-noir. It sort of fills that criteria. But perhaps The Maltese Falcon is considered the first of the film-noir genre because it was American and it was made intentionally to be noir.

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[–] BambooLounge 18 years ago

The Maltese Falcon was not made intentionally to be noir, the term "film noir" was not around when these "film noir" films were made, it was a term coined by the French to describe many of the types of movies made in America post-WWII. They looked at this films noted the similarities and came up with the term, "film noir," but since that point films such as LA Confidential, Brick, etc. have been intentionally made to fit the mold albiet an updated one, of what classical film noir was.

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[–] onepotato2 17 years ago

Hello,

M and Little Caeser are expressionist, not noir.
Little Caeser is also a 1930's 'gangster picture.'

This film is way too early to be noir. Your confusing expressionist cinematography which features dynamic angular elements in compositions and ceilings shown to heighten claustrophobia.

But that's not noir. Noir is more stricty speaking a reflection of the new morality & machismo that followed young American men home during and after WW2. Some noir motifs include:
- First and formost it's named 'noir' for the wash of of deep blacks across the composition, which hadn't been done before.
- camera work that features an extremely dramatic black/white range. Shadows are key. Vertical blinds projected onto walls.
- An unflappable hero haunted by a past he can't escape (Out of the Past, 200 other titles) and/or who suffers quietly as he tries to extricate himself from his past (Where the Sidewalk Ends)
- A tough hero who indulges in crime but usually has some personal code
- Levels and levels of criminality (The Big Sleep)
- A structure which allows the story to be relayed via flashback and narration
- Female characters who are central, desirable, intelligent and calmly deadly (Double Indemnity, Out fo the Past)
- Sexual frankness (Postman Always Rings Twice, Double Indemnity)
- A milieu in which the unethical thrives
But noir doesn't require all of thesse. And it is an amorphous style, not confined to crime & hard-boiled heroes. It encompasses dramas (Clash by Night, parts of Johnny Belinda) womens pictures (Mildred Pierce), etc. Even Casablanca is noir.

Noir often features day-for-night photography; footage shot during daylight that has been dimmed to suggest nighttime, usually unconvincingly.

Although Maltese Falcon is continually said to be the first noir, the Betty Grable movie "I Wake up Screaming" which came out ahead of TMF has the jump on the "first noir" title. If you don't believe me, take it from Noir authority and author Eddie Muller.

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[–] KubricksSeal 18 years ago

But "M" is from 1931, so then "Little Caesar" would fit into the film noir era?

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[–] jem132 18 years ago

I'd call it a gangster film with noirish elements. The lighting, the shadows (Expressionistic?), the hard-bitten dialogue and focus on crime certainly influenced the film noir movement in the 40's.

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[–] RoddmannW 17 years ago

NO NO NO NO NO NO

Black and white and gunplay does not equate to noir. Noir is a style, not a genre. Noir is essentially a style of crime film that like someone else has pointed out, did not exist as it is now known when these films were being made. It was in retrospect, particularly when European audiences became aware of films such as The Maltese Falcon that had previously been unavailable due to World War II that noir began to be recognized as a distinctly different style of film to ordinary crime dramas such as The Public Enemy and Little Caesar.

Little Caesar is a very simple rise and fall morality play gangster tale. There is no sign of a femme fatale, the lighting has little to no 'noirish' elements, rain soaked backgrounds, dutch angles, even the most typical themes of noir films such as the sexy dangerous women corrupting a flawed antihero is absent from Little Caesar.

If you want to see a good gangster film with genuine elements of noir check out James Cagney in White Heat. Now THAT is a gangster movie.

This is the business we have chosen...

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[–] ilpohirvonen 13 years ago

Exactly, noir is a style not a genre. Well said. To put it briefly, and if one wants to take the easy way, film-noir lasted from 1940-1958. Films made in some other times aren't film-noir, in my opinion. For the style holds a temporal definition within as well. I think Citizen Kane and Casablanca (which necessarily aren't film-noir, by the conventions of a genre analysis) are closer to film-noir than some phony 90's flicks. Then again, Little Caesar, Angels with Dirty Faces etc. are pre-noir films to my mind. Together with German Expressionism they helped the style to develop but they most certainly are NOT film-noir. I think no scholars state that.

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[–] Fenris Fil 11 years ago

Noir wasn't just a style of gangster film either, there are many, many non-gangster Noir films. I think you could say that there is a Film Noir style and a Film Noir Genre (or at least sub-genre), simply because it is still something that influences film makers today and the whole "Neo-Noir" (and other labels) have never really established themselves as either a style or genres in their own right. There are endless debates on the first and last Noir. As a style I would probably go with everything from "The stranger on the third floor" to "Touch of Evil". As for "M" it is linked to film noir and heavily influenced it (No Surprise as it came from Fritz Lang who would later be one of the top Noir film makers) but not part of the genre or style itself.

Whatever people say though, Film Noir is always something that causes (sometimes heated) debate. However, as for Little Caesar, it was one of the three Gangster films that established the Gangster genre (along with "The Public Enemy" and original "Scarface") so there is no doubt it is firmly within the Gangster genre and not Film Noir. Not that it didn't have a big influence on the genre of course.

--
I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own.

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